I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

If this dude had no heart or no desire and was a waste of talent, he damn sure put on a good front while he was in Toronto and New Jersey then.

[Dice]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

I'd have to agree with Pack. Despite the fact that Vince had the talent to probably be the second best shooting guard of all time, doesn't mean he was a complete waste.

Could he had been better than what his career turned out to be? No doubt. If he’d cared a little about defense, he would have been one of the best players of this generation. BUT that doesn’t mean he’s a complete waste. BUT here is what separates Derrick Coleman, who I think is a true waste, and Vince Carter.

Looking at it from a position standpoint, Coleman’s ceiling was much higher than Carter’s. Coleman had the chance to be the BEST POWER FORWARD OF ALL TIME. If Coleman would have squeezed out every inch of talent he had, we would have been arguing about who was a better power forward between Karl Malone, Tim Duncan and Derrick Coleman. That’s how good he was. Carter on the other hand would have never exceeded Jordan as the best shooting guard of all time even if he squeezed every inch of talent he had. The best Carter would have done was to surpass Kobe.

Another thing about Carter and Coleman was Coleman’s personal deficiencies hindered his team more than Carter’s. Was Carter a ball hog who would stop an offense? In most respects, yes. BUT Coleman was a clubhouse cancer. His issues was more off court than on court. And if you ask anyone, off court issues are much harder to resolve than on court issues. Now in the case of Carter, yeah, he never did resolve his on court issues BUT his was less serious than Coleman’s.

And to Carter’s credit, he is an 8 time all star. Doesn’t mean much to some folks, including me. BUT take into consideration that Coleman only made ONE all star appearance when he’s was competing against guys like old Larry Nance, Horace Grant and Larry Johnson for top PF’s in the East during his prime. Not exactly HOF power forwards.

[VDusen04]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

You could say the same thing about 98% of basketball players. But only a tiny percentage of them were gifted like Vince was.

I must ask, how do we believe these players become so gifted in the first place? I suppose it becomes a question of ethics and basketball development. On my end, I've never seen basketball players who were just born incredibly awesome. Yes, it's a supposed gift to grow to be 6'6'' with giant hands but developing the basketball skills, coordination, and abilities that Vince did is not a matter of being gifted, in my opinion. Rather, it's the result of years and years of hard work.

I find there to be a large spectrum between not trying at all and trying as hard as humanly possible every day of a person's life. I get this feeling that because people know Vince Carter did not work as hard as humanly possible, he must have then not worked at all. At the risk of sounding redundant, there's a lot of people out there with Carter's measurements and what many would refer to as "natural athletic talent". 99.9999999% of those players didn't do what Carter did. Youtube mixtapes are full of guys who could jump like Vince, but definitely couldn't play like Vince, and I don't think that's because Vince Carter was simply blessed at birth with the ability to pull up and drill buzzer beaters from 35 feet. Instead, it was something Carter spent a very significant amount of his life working toward.

A specific example may be James "Flight" White. I think it's arguable that White may have been nearly equal or superior to Carter in terms of athletic ability (and in this case, we seem to be using athletic ability to refer to height, length, speed, mobility, and jumping ability). As it turns out though, White wasn't a fraction of the player Vince Carter was and again, it's not my feeling this was because Carter had some mysterious natural basketball talent that he never had to develop and White didn't. Rather, again, I find Carter's skills were something he had to commit a lot of blood, sweat, and tears toward developing. I don't doubt White worked his butt off as well, but that should only go to show how tough it can be to achieve success on the NBA level and why I feel Carter catches an overwhelmingly excess amount of criticism, as if he's never had to work hard a day in his life.

There's something about just watching him play that rubs me wrong. Maybe it's his body language. Or maybe his lack of emotion. He looks disinterested most of the time. He doesn't even look like he's competing. On defense he just stands around, doesn't even know what a defensive stance looks like. He plays so unaggressively it's painful to watch. God knows he could have whipped anybody that tried to guard him but most of the time he decided he was going to settle for bad jumpshots.

This is most certainly not a criticism toward you, Ruff, but that paragraph there is a very good example of what I've heard a lot from folks in regards to Vince. I get a lot of "He just looks kind of disinterested sometimes" and "It's just his body language" and "All he does is settle for jumpshots". In many cases, it seems to be merely a hop, skip and a jump from the "I don't know if I like how his face looks" comments to the "he has no heart and is a waste" point of view. In short, it's often felt like open interpretations of how people thought Vince was working, playing and living and over time they've seemed to slowly turn into stones of truth, and that's where I object.

[B]I agree with Matrix. I went back and watched some of his old stuff over the summer and he was ridiculously gifted. I think talent wise, he had all of the ability to be the best player to play. You don't see guys gifted like him. He could jump higher than Mike, Kobe, T-Mac. I watched a couple games from that Philly series and in his third season, he was a complete offensive dynamo. He could score out of the triple threat, he could attack the basket, he had a post game, he had a jump shot, he could handle the basketball and had no problem creating space off the dribble. But at 24 years old, he seemingly just didn't get better.

I could see your point about his athletic peak possibly coming at age 24, but I feel there's a few things that clearly contributed to such a case. Further, I don't find it'd be accurate to say he severely dropped off after that age (nor do you suggest as such). However, I do think it's important to keep in mind that Vince did suffer relatively significant injuries as a 25 and 26 year old (playing in 60 and 43 games in the '02 and '03 seasons, respectively). I don't think it's terribly far-fetched to assume his game changed a little. Still, I don't find a player's improvement to be exponential and infinite. Different players peak at different points of their career. Vince averaged 27 ppg as a 24 year old. He averaged around 24 over the course of the next 6 years. Lebron James averaged 30 as a 24 year old. He's averaged around 28 in the years since. So again, I don't think it's outlandish to reach a statistical peak at 24.

With all that said, I do feel he continued to add wrinkles to his game as he aged. I thought he became a better facilitator, more willing to share the ball at the right moments, and even more likely to let the game come to him. I thought he was spectacular for a lot of his time in New Jersey. I do think those injuries zapped him of some athleticism (perhaps bouncing him from being out of this galaxy instead to being simply out of this world) but I'm still not sure I ever saw the potential for Jordan or Kobe-like greatness with Vince. I saw people saying that's what he should be achieving, but I'm not sure I agreed with their sentiments.

[Dice]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

LOL @ Shaq being a waste. Probably one of the best centers of all time and he's a waste?

[ZB9]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

Do ya'll think Vince Carter is a future hall of famer? With his 8 all star appearances and Olympic Gold Medal, he might be. He's probably borderline, but there are players in the HOF with lesser credentials.

[RedSceptile]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

LOL @ Shaq being a waste. Probably one of the best centers of all time and he's a waste?

Think Matrix point is he could have been the best player of all time. It's a waste in that his ceiling was much higher but he never worked to fully reach it. I see where he's coming from.

[Hassan Darkside]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

I must ask, how do we believe these players become so gifted in the first place? I suppose it becomes a question of ethics and basketball development. On my end, I've never seen basketball players who were just born incredibly awesome. Yes, it's a supposed gift to grow to be 6'6'' with giant hands but developing the basketball skills, coordination, and abilities that Vince did is not a matter of being gifted, in my opinion. Rather, it's the result of years and years of hard work.

I find there to be a large spectrum between not trying at all and trying as hard as humanly possible every day of a person's life. I get this feeling that because people know Vince Carter did not work as hard as humanly possible, he must have then not worked at all. At the risk of sounding redundant, there's a lot of people out there with Carter's measurements and what many would refer to as "natural athletic talent". 99.9999999% of those players didn't do what Carter did. Youtube mixtapes are full of guys who could jump like Vince, but definitely couldn't play like Vince, and I don't think that's because Vince Carter was simply blessed at birth with the ability to pull up and drill buzzer beaters from 35 feet. Instead, it was something Carter spent a very significant amount of his life working toward.

A specific example may be James "Flight" White. I think it's arguable that White may have been nearly equal or superior to Carter in terms of athletic ability (and in this case, we seem to be using athletic ability to refer to height, length, speed, mobility, and jumping ability). As it turns out though, White wasn't a fraction of the player Vince Carter was and again, it's not my feeling this was because Carter had some mysterious natural basketball talent that he never had to develop and White didn't. Rather, again, I find Carter's skills were something he had to commit a lot of blood, sweat, and tears toward developing. I don't doubt White worked his butt off as well, but that should only go to show how tough it can be to achieve success on the NBA level and why I feel Carter catches an overwhelmingly excess amount of criticism, as if he's never had to work hard a day in his life.

I feel you but my issue is it's like he stopped working, developing his game, becoming better. Some things come more natural to people than others. It's very possible that Vince could be more of a natural at basketball than James White was.

This is most certainly not a criticism toward you, Ruff, but that paragraph there is a very good example of what I've heard a lot from folks in regards to Vince. I get a lot of "He just looks kind of disinterested sometimes" and "It's just his body language" and "All he does is settle for jumpshots". In many cases, it seems to be merely a hop, skip and a jump from the "I don't know if I like how his face looks" comments to the "he has no heart and is a waste" point of view. In short, it's often felt like open interpretations of how people thought Vince was working, playing and living and over time they've seemed to slowly turn into stones of truth, and that's where I object.

That's a big hop, skip, and a jump. A players attitude/body language is actually important and it reflects off of them either positively or negatively to teammates and observers. I don't understand why I'm supposed to sit here and watch him walk up and down the basketball court, trot around on defense not even looking at the ball, or stand in the corner at the 3 point line for an entire possessions and think that he's playing hard.

I could see your point about his athletic peak possibly coming at age 24, but I feel there's a few things that clearly contributed to such a case. Further, I don't find it'd be accurate to say he severely dropped off after that age (nor do you suggest as such). However, I do think it's important to keep in mind that Vince did suffer relatively significant injuries as a 25 and 26 year old (playing in 60 and 43 games in the '02 and '03 seasons, respectively). I don't think it's terribly far-fetched to assume his game changed a little. Still, I don't find a player's improvement to be exponential and infinite. Different players peak at different points of their career. Vince averaged 27 ppg as a 24 year old. He averaged around 24 over the course of the next 6 years. Lebron James averaged 30 as a 24 year old. He's averaged around 28 in the years since. So again, I don't think it's outlandish to reach a statistical peak at 24.

Well LBJ had also been in the league 6-7 years when he was 24. I guess what I'm getting at is what people consider players "prime." I don't want to turn this thread into a debate over what prime is but I'm pretty certain most players don't reach it in their 3rd season. Usually when you see a guy tearing up the league in their third season you sit there giddy knowing that he's put this much together in this short of a time frame, he MUST be on the verge of destroying the league.

Now I agree 100% injuries impacted him, but he was also very much an athletic freak and still seemingly as athletic afterwards. Just not as aggressive. It's like the injuries had more of a mental impact on him. He definitely got jumpshot happy afterwards. He stopped attacking the basket like he used to. He lost that "fearlessness." A couple good fouls on him and he wouldn't go near the paint. The dude averages practically as many 3 pt attempts as he does freethrows.

With all that said, I do feel he continued to add wrinkles to his game as he aged. I thought he became a better facilitator, more willing to share the ball at the right moments, and even more likely to let the game come to him. I thought he was spectacular for a lot of his time in New Jersey. I do think those injuries zapped him of some athleticism (perhaps bouncing him from being out of this galaxy instead to being simply out of this world) but I'm still not sure I ever saw the potential for Jordan or Kobe-like greatness with Vince. I saw people saying that's what he should be achieving, but I'm not sure I agreed with their sentiments.

I agree that he became more of a facilitator, but he also was on a better team in NJ as well. He was one of those guys that was a great player on a crappy team for a long time, but he just never struck me as the type of guy that was a "Put the team on my back even though we suck and try to take them as far as I can" type guy, like KG was. He seemed like the "I don't want to be here anymore so I'm just gonna go on auto-pilot until I can get out of here" type guy.

I just feel like if you gave VC that same drive/passion for the game that someone like Kobe or MJ had, he'd surpass both of them. And I know that it's "immeasurable" and "subjective" but you can just look at a guy and tell, just like when you watch enough sports and can look at a guy and tell that he's uninspired.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

"Put the team on my back even though we suck and try to take them as far as I can" type guy, like KG was. He seemed like the "I don't want to be here anymore so I'm just gonna go on auto-pilot until I can get out of here" type guy.

So what was he all those years in Toronto? Or does all that get ignored because he forced his way out in 05?

Hell, he did that in Jersey up until Ownership decided they didn't want to pay him or any player for that matter.

You say you could tell he was uninspired...but if that's the case, what was he in Toronto, when he put them on HIS back, and in Jersey when he carried them on HIS back then, especially in the playoffs? Again, that's a good *** front he put on during those times then.

[Dice]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

Think Matrix point is he could have been the best player of all time. It's a waste in that his ceiling was much higher but he never worked to fully reach it. I see where he's coming from.

Eh. I never saw Shaq as potentially the best player of all time. Could he have had a better FT percentage? No doubt. Shaq could have been the NBA's all time leading scorer BUT he'd never would have been regarded as the best player of all time. He could have had the title of 'Best Center of all time' locked down with a little more effort. BUT he's far from a waste just because he's 'arguably' the 'Best Center of All Time'

[Hassan Darkside]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

So what was he all those years in Toronto? Or does all that get ignored because he forced his way out in 05?

All of what years? The team was only competitive and no better than that for his first 3-4 seasons. And he was still just a one dimensional scorer. He certainly didn't play every possession like he was scared to get beat.

Hell, he did that in Jersey up until Ownership decided they didn't want to pay him or any player for that matter.

You say you could tell he was uninspired...but if that's the case, what was he in Toronto, when he put them on HIS back, and in Jersey when he carried them on HIS back then, especially in the playoffs? Again, that's a good *** front he put on during those times then.

He was different in Jersey, his team and teammates were much better there and there's no doubt he was amped to be somewhere else besides Toronto. It's funny that he's still never been past the second round of the playoffs either, in a weak conference.

I ain't denying that he never made big shots or never filled highlight reels or never stuffed that stat sheet. I'm saying that he could have done much more than that and been a much, much better player given his combination of talent, athleticism, and ability. Injuries or no injuries. I've seen guys with less play harder and accomplish more.

[wwharton]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

LOL @ Shaq being a waste. Probably one of the best centers of all time and he's a waste?

Shaq was far from a waste but it's relative. He came far from reaching his potential which is what's so incredibly scary. You mentioned his FT% but what about his time on the court? Everyone knows that Shaq's work ethic was in the toilet (again, relatively speaking). If he even just got in good enough shape to play in more games he would've been much better. We could tell he worked a little on different parts of his game but none fully developed. I have no doubt that outside of some really serious injury (could've happened if he worked as hard as we're saying he should have) he could've been the best player ever.

As for Vince, I agree with the relative talk that compares him to the likes of Shaq... but in the same sense, that's why he's not a waste of talent. He did plenty with his talent, just not as much as we think he could have... and I think it's more noticeable bc of how talented he is but that's really the difference between the entire league and a bunch of guys that are no more than playground legends.

It's also possible that he worked so hard on his game that it peaked early. As mentioned, he had a ton of weapons coming into the league and was pretty polished early on. Maybe that's all he had in him.

[VDusen04]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

As for Vince, I agree with the relative talk that compares him to the likes of Shaq... but in the same sense, that's why he's not a waste of talent. He did plenty with his talent, just not as much as we think he could have... and I think it's more noticeable bc of how talented he is but that's really the difference between the entire league and a bunch of guys that are no more than playground legends.

It's also possible that he worked so hard on his game that it peaked early. As mentioned, he had a ton of weapons coming into the league and was pretty polished early on. Maybe that's all he had in him.

I think you state it pretty well when you say, "He did plenty with his talent, just not as much as we think he could have." I think that's the essence of it. Some people will have that viewpoint while others will appreciate all he was able to accomplish to begin with. Arguably one of the top 20 basketball players in the entire world for almost an entire decade? In the scheme of things, that sounds like pretty achieved potential. Perhaps not fully maximized, but I'd say it's a world away from being completely untapped and wasted.

All of what years? The team was only competitive and no better than that for his first 3-4 seasons. And he was still just a one dimensional scorer. He certainly didn't play every possession like he was scared to get beat.

I can largely agree with scoring being far and away his best dimension. Some players can be absolute difference makers on defense, some can sort of play their role without offering much, and some can be a terrible detriment. I didn't find Carter to be defensively detrimental, but I agree it wasn't a weapon like his offense was (which would be in contrast to guys like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade).

With that said, this is sort of my issue. Carter's never been perfect. He's always had deficiencies alongside a lot of the things he's done great. But at what point did the absolute best of the best become his measuring stick? And at what point did his falling short of the very top then mean he was a waste? I know he didn't play every possession like he was scared to get beat but man, if I had to list every player who didn't play every single possession like it was their last, we'd be here all night. And that's not to excuse Vince's deficiencies. Rather, it just seems he is the lightning rod for a lot of things that aren't unique to him alone.

He was different in Jersey, his team and teammates were much better there and there's no doubt he was amped to be somewhere else besides Toronto. It's funny that he's still never been past the second round of the playoffs either, in a weak conference.

I'm a big believer in basketball being a complete team game. As such, I'm a huge disbeliever in judging great players based off the number of championships they've won over the course of their career. This also carries over to a team's general success (even short of NBA championships). Yes, stars can certainly amplify a team's skill level and effectiveness, but they can never do it alone (or anywhere close to it). So, to question why Vince Carter was never able to lead a team past the second round with Alvin Williams and Chris Childs splitting time at the point and a 37 year old Charles Oakley starting in the frontcourt is a little moot to me. If anything, I laud Vince for being able to help carry a team as far as he did.

Essentially, when discussing the 2nd round wall, I like to picture how deep into the playoffs Vince would have gone if he took a shooting guard's place on any given dominant team from that era. If he took Kobe's spot in '01, would the Lakers still win a ring? Maybe not. Would that team have had a better opportunity of being successful than Vince's Raptors? I think that's not too far-fetched to believe. Some teams try to contend with Shaquille O'Neal at center, others try with Antonio Davis.

I actually feel players who don't win rings are eternally screwed in these types of arguments. If they haven't been past the first round (McGrady), it becomes, "He never made it past the first round, if only he could have done that." If they haven't been past the second round (Carter) it becomes, "He never made it past the second round, if only he could have done that." And if they've been to the conference finals or above (pre-Duncan David Robinson) it becomes, "He never won a ring, if only he would have done that." Essentially, it seems people will always take the lowest common denominator and scoff at that player's inability to carry his team beyond it.

I ain't denying that he never made big shots or never filled highlight reels or never stuffed that stat sheet. I'm saying that he could have done much more than that and been a much, much better player given his combination of talent, athleticism, and ability. Injuries or no injuries. I've seen guys with less play harder and accomplish more.
[/B]

I agree he could have done more. But I also believe he did a whole lot to begin with. Another mis-connection between posters here may be how we each view the term "talent". I think people can have natural dispositions to excel at certain activities but I'm not sure that's what I'd label Vince Carter's ability to play basketball at such a high level. I think he had talent near the start of his life and then built upon it with hard work and practice, ultimately leading to his relative mastering of the game of basketball. Essentially, I thought his ability to hit 30 foot jumpers was a result of developing raw talent. This would be in contrast to those who may believe things like his shooting ability were the natural talent and he just never bothered to expand upon it.

[Hassan Darkside]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

I can largely agree with scoring being far and away his best dimension. Some players can be absolute difference makers on defense, some can sort of play their role without offering much, and some can be a terrible detriment. I didn't find Carter to be defensively detrimental, but I agree it wasn't a weapon like his offense was (which would be in contrast to guys like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade).

I don't know if I'd consider him detrimental either because he got that "star" treatment where he typically wasn't matched up on the team's best player. But he wasn't a difference maker as you said, but he also wasn't a guy that tried. He didn't move his feet, he never even attempted to get into a defensive stance. He didn't anticipate or do anything that resembled making an effort. Even when they would switch him onto a player that was lighting his team up, he looked absolutely clueless on how to play man to man defense. So to me it looked like he 1) didn't try and 2) didn't care to learn.

With that said, this is sort of my issue. Carter's never been perfect. He's always had deficiencies alongside a lot of the things he's done great. But at what point did the absolute best of the best become his measuring stick? And at what point did his falling short of the very top then mean he was a waste? I know he didn't play every possession like he was scared to get beat but man, if I had to list every player who didn't play every single possession like it was their last, we'd be here all night. And that's not to excuse Vince's deficiencies. Rather, it just seems he is the lightning rod for a lot of things that aren't unique to him alone.

The best of the best became his measuring stick when he started producing at the same level as the best. In his second season after a lockout shortened season the dude averaged 26-6-4. When you see a guy bust out with numbers like that in such a short timespan, you're just inclined to raise the bar you initially set for him.

I'm a big believer in basketball being a complete team game. As such, I'm a huge disbeliever in judging great players based off the number of championships they've won over the course of their career. This also carries over to a team's general success (even short of NBA championships). Yes, stars can certainly amplify a team's skill level and effectiveness, but they can never do it alone (or anywhere close to it). So, to question why Vince Carter was never able to lead a team past the second round with Alvin Williams and Chris Childs splitting time at the point and a 37 year old Charles Oakley starting in the frontcourt is a little moot to me. If anything, I laud Vince for being able to help carry a team as far as he did.

I can understand that point but to me, the funny thing is he got beat by guys in the exact same situation as him (AI, LeBron) and you can debate who's team was better. And you can see the difference between the passion a guy like AI played with vs a guy like Vince.

Essentially, when discussing the 2nd round wall, I like to picture how deep into the playoffs Vince would have gone if he took a shooting guard's place on any given dominant team from that era. If he took Kobe's spot in '01, would the Lakers still win a ring? Maybe not. Would that team have had a better opportunity of being successful than Vince's Raptors? I think that's not too far-fetched to believe. Some teams try to contend with Shaquille O'Neal at center, others try with Antonio Davis.

Eh...not worth debating imo. I think Shaq was dominant enough to have a lesser sidekick and win. That Lakers team was way better than that Sixers team anyway.
[quote]
I actually feel players who don't win rings are eternally screwed in these types of arguments. If they haven't been past the first round (McGrady), it becomes, "He never made it past the first round, if only he could have done that." If they haven't been past the second round (Carter) it becomes, "He never made it past the second round, if only he could have done that." And if they've been to the conference finals or above (pre-Duncan David Robinson) it becomes, "He never won a ring, if only he would have done that." Essentially, it seems people will always take the lowest common denominator and scoff at that player's inability to carry his team beyond it. [quote]
Once again, I look at other guys in a similar spot as Vince that did more than he did. I'm not arguing that he should have rings but I will say that he was never the superstar that took it to another level in the playoffs. You could argue that he turned it up a notch for NJ, but he was never the guy that took it to another level like T-Mac or Kobe or AI did in the playoffs.

I agree he could have done more. But I also believe he did a whole lot to begin with. Another mis-connection between posters here may be how we each view the term "talent". I think people can have natural dispositions to excel at certain activities but I'm not sure that's what I'd label Vince Carter's ability to play basketball at such a high level. I think he had talent near the start of his life and then built upon it with hard work and practice, ultimately leading to his relative mastering of the game of basketball. Essentially, I thought his ability to hit 30 foot jumpers was a result of developing raw talent. This would be in contrast to those who may believe things like his shooting ability were the natural talent and he just never bothered to expand upon it.

I guess the way that I interpret the entire thing, he never utilized his talent like he should have. He didn't play toward his strengths. He didn't try to evolve his game to be more efficient, yet take less punishment after injuries. A guy like LeBron, for example, takes all this criticism about being an average defender or a guy that falls too frequently in love with his jumpshot and changes his game to become one of the best perimeter defenders in the league along with getting a semblance of a post game and becoming more aggressive attacking the basket. Heck, he cut three pointers out of his diet all together this year and currently is shooting an absurd 60% from the field. Vince was more than capable of refining his game in a similar manner, just never did.

[wwharton]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

But Ruff, he didn't start producing like the best of the best bc he was always a turd on defense. Sounds like the expectations of him were too high. I actually think it's funny that you don't see Matrix's point about Shaq (think that was you... maybe it was Dice) with how you're looking at VC. Shaq may not have had any desire to be better than he was. He was pretty damn good so that's not a bad thing at all. I still feel like he wasted his potential but would never call him a waste of talent. Guess that's my difference. And that's how I feel about Vince. It seems like he could've been so much more but I give props to what he is/was.

The difference between the elite and everyone else is how they strap up on D, how much heart they have, the killer instinct, etc. If he didn't have it, he just didn't have it. They're only a handful of elite players.

[VDusen04]

Re: I would love to see Vince Carter get a ring

I don't know if I'd consider him detrimental either because he got that "star" treatment where he typically wasn't matched up on the team's best player. But he wasn't a difference maker as you said, but he also wasn't a guy that tried. He didn't move his feet, he never even attempted to get into a defensive stance. He didn't anticipate or do anything that resembled making an effort. Even when they would switch him onto a player that was lighting his team up, he looked absolutely clueless on how to play man to man defense. So to me it looked like he 1) didn't try and 2) didn't care to learn.

I mean, I assume you're overdramatizing to make a point but it seems to be taking things away from reality a little bit. I suppose you and I (and everyone else) must draw our own conclusions because we don't know how Vince's mind worked, or what his practices and training looked like. But from my end, he clearly put himself into a defensive stance and I couldn't disagree more in terms of him not doing anything that resembled making an effort. Again, I'd agree with the notion that he was not a great defender, but to say he never made an effort, never tried, and never cared to learn about defense is a little fantastical to me.

The best of the best became his measuring stick when he started producing at the same level as the best. In his second season after a lockout shortened season the dude averaged 26-6-4. When you see a guy bust out with numbers like that in such a short timespan, you're just inclined to raise the bar you initially set for him.

I feel that. It makes sense. I'm still not sure I'd call him a waste (as others have said, not you) just because he wasn't able to ascend at the same rate as the most elite of the elite. So he put up great numbers early, which then justifies the greater public to expect all-time legendary status and then label him a failure when our own astronomical expectations aren't met. It doesn't feel right.

I can understand that point but to me, the funny thing is he got beat by guys in the exact same situation as him (AI, LeBron) and you can debate who's team was better. And you can see the difference between the passion a guy like AI played with vs a guy like Vince.

I don't find there to be any weight in such a paragraph. If Vince Carter and his team loses a playoff series, it must be due to his assumed singular inferior passion in comparison to the other team's best player? It feels like a convenient criticism to make only when Carter came up on the losing end. When his team defeated a passionate, gritty gamer like Latrell Sprewell and his New York Knicks, is it still a funny thing?

Further, I find it even more off base to suggest it was largely Allen Iverson's passion that led him and his team to a series victory over Carter's Raptors. As if squeaking by in a Game 7 after an opponent's game-winning jumper bounced off the back iron was all due in part to one's passion (or an opponent's lack thereof). I agree that Carter's teams were in similar situations to LeBron's and Iverson's, but I don't believe the outcomes of those series were affected by how passionate any given star appeared to be to fans watching on television.

Eh...not worth debating imo. I think Shaq was dominant enough to have a lesser sidekick and win. That Lakers team was way better than that Sixers team anyway.

I agree that'd likely be an entirely different discussion. The primary point merely was that the team success a star player experiences is largely based on. . .well. . .his team. Why didn't Kobe compete for ring in '06? Well, because he started alongside Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook and Kwame Brown. And that's not any sort of criticism of Kobe Bryant. Rather, it's a clear illustration as to how I believe winning a championship works and why I don't believe stars should be judged heavily based on how many they've won.

Once again, I look at other guys in a similar spot as Vince that did more than he did. I'm not arguing that he should have rings but I will say that he was never the superstar that took it to another level in the playoffs. You could argue that he turned it up a notch for NJ, but he was never the guy that took it to another level like T-Mac or Kobe or AI did in the playoffs.

I find the notion that Vince Carter never took it to another level in the playoffs to be wildly off base, but again, I guess taking it to another level is very open to interpretation. From my view, I thought his '01 series against Philadelphia was definitely the other level you were talking about. Outside of game 5 where VC sat for much of the 4th (due to an early Philly blowout) Vince averaged 33 points per game over the other six games of that classic series, including exploding for 50 in game when he connected on 8 three-pointers in the first half alone.

And while it's often pointed out that Vince only shot 6 of 18 in game 7 in that '01 2nd round series (where it's suggested Allen Iverson out-passioned VC to the victory) I think it's worth noting that both teams were on lockdown defensively. Iverson shot 8 of 27. It was actually a hell of a battle. Carter looked to accommodate for his lack of clean looks by feeding teammates (9 assists, 0 turnovers). So did Iverson (16 assists, 4 turnovers). That game wasn't decided by superior passion. Both guys played their hearts out. Both teams played their hearts out. One squad had to lose.

Anyway, back to the "another level" portion of things. '01 wasn't the only year Vince was able to step up for the playoffs. After getting off to a rough start in '00, I seem to remember him being quite effective come playoff time, overstepping his regular season averages and impact over the course of most of his prime. For example, he averaged 27, 9 and 6 in '05's 1st round loss to the Heat. The following season, he increased his scoring average by six points during the post-season (30ppg in 11 games versus his 24ppg regular season average). I'm reciting stats, but in the '01 case and '06 case (two Carter post-seasons I've watched and re-watched) I feel those stats translate to his true on-court play. He stepped it up. Of course, I say that knowing full well there's no winning here. By acknoweldging he stepped up, I'd only seem to be leaving the door open for "Then why didn't he do that all the time?" comments. Answer: in that case it wouldn't be called "stepping up".

I guess the way that I interpret the entire thing, he never utilized his talent like he should have. He didn't play toward his strengths. He didn't try to evolve his game to be more efficient, yet take less punishment after injuries. A guy like LeBron, for example, takes all this criticism about being an average defender or a guy that falls too frequently in love with his jumpshot and changes his game to become one of the best perimeter defenders in the league along with getting a semblance of a post game and becoming more aggressive attacking the basket. Heck, he cut three pointers out of his diet all together this year and currently is shooting an absurd 60% from the field. Vince was more than capable of refining his game in a similar manner, just never did.

Yeah, maybe Vince Carter didn't evolve like he should have. Perhaps if he developed a reliable post game, he'd be much more effective now than he actually is. Regardless, he was a damn good basketball player and hardly a waste of talent.