Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

[RedSceptile]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

They were pretty much identical in all facets of the game.

To claim one of them was WAY better than the other is just incorrect.

Ray Allen is a WAAAAAY better defender than Reggie ever was. Confirm/deny.

They might seem similar but Ray has a lot on Reggie.

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

Well yeah, Allen is shooting a higher percentage from 3 this year, but almost every other year Nash has shot a higher percentage, and Nash still has a higher TS% and eFG% this year. I'm not positive, but I think Nash is pretty much the most efficient scorer in the league this year.

lol whatever dude that's not my point. top 2, 3, gets the same point across.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

I will note that Reggie had a better 3% through this point, as people try to claim that Allen shoots a better percentage. Also, Reggie’s True Shooting% is higher, thanks to his greater number of FTA. That goes to show what people forget: Reggie did a lot of damage on dribble drives earlier in his career. He wasn’t just a spot-up shooter.

Ray Allen makes up the difference in PER in rebounding and assists, though.

Ray Allen won his ring as the third-best player on his team with two other HOFers. Plus, everyone was freaking out as Ray was MIA for the first three rounds of 2008. How many series would the Pacers have won without Reggie performing well? How many titles would he have won with two other HOFers on his side?

Reggie Miller from three point range - 2560 for 6486 = .3946% (or 39.5%)

Ray Allen from three point range - 2680 for 6694 = .4003% (or 40%)


Reggie took more free throws because he whined to the refs and flopped around like a fish out of water anytime someone breathed on him. And, let's not forget the fact that Reggie played (up to this point) 200 more games than Ray. That helps him add on to his stats.

And you can argue that Reggie had the higher PER, but then you mentioned "but Ray makes up for it in rebounding & assists"...what about defense? That gives Ray 6 categories (3 pointers made, 3 point %, free throw %, rebounding, passing, and all around defense)

[wwharton]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

I'd take Reggie any day of the week in the final :10 for starters.

And saying that Reggie was just a spot of shooter like Rip Hamilton for those teams is not fair.


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Why isn't it fair? Rip's got a ring, on a team similar to those Pacers teams that were talented across the board (not driven by a star or two like you're making Miller out to be) and their stats are similar, as well as how they were used in the offense.

They were pretty much identical in all facets of the game.

To claim one of them was WAY better than the other is just incorrect.

Allen's stats were better his last 3 years or so on the Bucks, only his 4th or 5th years in the league. Very strange comment from someone in Wisconsin.

[DocHolliday]

Why isn't it fair? Rip's got a ring, on a team similar to those Pacers teams that were talented across the board (not driven by a star or two like you're making Miller out to be) and their stats are similar, as well as how they were used in the offense.



Allen's stats were better his last 3 years or so on the Bucks, only his 4th or 5th years in the league. Very strange comment from someone in Wisconsin.

It's the eye test to me. You lost me when you compared Hamilton to one of the greatest shooters/clutch Shooters/and disrupters of opponents of all time.

Are you seriously saying that Reggie and Rip are comparable?


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[1Rose]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

Because he talked a lot of trash that makes him a better player. Now you're reaching.

How do you not understand that comparison though? It's probably one of the best I've heard and makes the most sense. Some of those Pacers teams were stacked.

[DocHolliday]

I think the ability to either ignite your team or get under the skin of the other team is vastly underrated in these parts. Stats don't tell the whole story of a player.

And yes I think comparing Reggie to Hamilton is utterly ridiculous.


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[1Rose]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

I would love to hear why. They are actually very similar aside from your emphasis on trash talking.

[wwharton]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

It's the eye test to me. You lost me when you compared Hamilton to one of the greatest shooters/clutch Shooters/and disrupters of opponents of all time.

Are you seriously saying that Reggie and Rip are comparable?


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I watched Reggie play on those Pacers teams and watched Rip play on those Piston teams. Their roles were very similar (as are their stats, really). I'd take Reggie over Rip every time but don't think either was able to do what Ray Allen has done.

Now I answered your question and you still haven't answered mine. Why isn't it fair? All you've said is Reggie gets under people's skin and repeated that you don't think it's a good comparison. Where's the meat?

[dramachild11]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

i think the point he was trying to make was that hamilton was never really considered a superstar or even a star for that matter while reggie was the focal point oft hat team for close to a decade... those pistons teams didnt actually have a "star" on any given night billups might be the scorer, or rasheed, or okur.. but on those pacers teams reggie had to score or they lost because other than smits nobody else was capable of scoring 20 a night

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

It's the eye test to me. You lost me when you compared Hamilton to one of the greatest shooters/clutch Shooters/and disrupters of opponents of all time.

Are you seriously saying that Reggie and Rip are comparable?


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Doc, come on man, you shouldn't be accusing anyone of "losing" this debate after you said Ray isn't nearly as clutch as Reggie.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

i think the point he was trying to make was that hamilton was never really considered a superstar or even a star for that matter while reggie was the focal point oft hat team for close to a decade... those pistons teams didnt actually have a "star" on any given night billups might be the scorer, or rasheed, or okur.. but on those pacers teams reggie had to score or they lost because other than smits nobody else was capable of scoring 20 a night

'88 & '89 - Wayman Tisdale
'88 -'92 - Chuck Person
'89 - '93 - Detlef Schrempf
'89 - '00 - Rik Smits
'92 - Michael Williams
'94 & '95 - Derrick McKey
'99 - Chris Mullin
'99 - '02 - Jalen Rose
'01 - '05 - Jermaine O'Neal
'02 - '05 - Ron Artest
'02 - '04 - Al Harrington
'02 - '03 - Brad Miller
'05 - Stephen Jackson
'05 - Jamaal Tinsley

This is a list of guys who averaged 12 or more points per game during Reggie Miller's career. (you'll notice that several of them overlap)(also, outside of a McKey & Mullin, all of those guys averaged 15+ points..several were 18+). So the case that "Reggie never played with anyone who could put up 20" points is ridiculous.

There was a time from 1994 - 1997 where Smits was the only one who averaged over 15, but in 1994, Miller had 5 teammates average in double figures, and from 1995-1997, he had 4 teammates average in double figures - in other words, they were an extremely well rounded team.

I'm not trying to argue that Miller wasn't good, but I am trying to say that he is supremely overrated. All he was, was the guy who took the most shots on a great all-around team.


The Richard Hamilton comparison isn't all together crazy. Was he as good as Reggie? well, he wasn't as good a shooter, but he was a better passer & defender, and I would argue that he was a better mid-range shooter. But, Rip had the same responsibility as Miller - run around, come off screens, be option #1 on a team with multiple scoring options.

[CueDub]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

My initial reaction before reading this thread was Reggie Miller is better than Ray Allen. Miller was the guy who opposing defenses were gameplanning to stop. For half of his career, an opponent's primary, #1 goal WASN'T to stop Ray Allen, but one of his other teammates. Its much easier to thrive in the NBA playing 2nd or 3rd fiddle. Rashard Lewis parlayed playing 2nd fiddle to Ray Allen into a 9-figure contract! Glenn Robinson was the "big dog" on those Bucks teams. Pierce and Garnett were the 1st and 2nd option when that big 3 was formed. Allen just had to wait for his moments to shine without the pressure of carrying his team throughout the game.

IMO, that's the biggest difference to me. Reggie Miller spent majority of his career being THE man. Yes the Pacers had solid role players and some All-Stars through the Miller years, but Miller still had the pressure of being the man.

Brings up another point: Miller's Pacers. Ray Allen's Sonics? You can't say Ray Allen's Bucks or Ray Allen's Celtics. Ray was fortunate to play with a few more dominant teammates through the years.

Those are the thoughts that just ran through my head on the subject. Both are great HOF players. I'm old enough to have seen both careers. Maybe I have East Coast bias. I do give it to Reggie Miller though.

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

Allen just had to wait for his moments to shine without the pressure of carrying his team throughout the game.

Miller didn't really have that kind of pressure either. The competitive teams he played on were extremely well balanced. In any case Miller didn't have the kind of offensive skills needed to "carry" a team like a traditional #1 player would. When I think of "the man" on a team (offensively at least) I'm thinking of a guy who can beat you a number of ways with explosive scoring ability, Miller was a one-note threat and that's part of the reason his teams always fell short.

[ehh]

Re: Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?

This thread is the epitome of how the media can impact people's perceptions.

Perfect example...in 1994 ECF Reggie scores 39 points including 25 in the 4th quarter to lead a huge come back victory over the Knicks and a 3-2 series lead. What was the final result of that series? The Pacers blew a 3-2 series lead, including Game 6 at home, and Miller airballed a three in the waning seconds of Game 7 that would have tied the game. That doesn't exactly scream "legendary clutchness" to me. This is where he became "a Knick killer". By blowing a 3-2 series lead and airballing the biggest shot of his career at the time.

1999 ECF...the #2 Pacers bow out to the #8 seed Knicks 4-2 as Miller has a dreadful Game 6 (don't remember the numbers but it was bad. John Starks bad). Ah, the Knick Killer at it again.

Hell, in Miller's most famous series in 1995 (the 8 second fiasco) the Pacers were Ewing's bricked finger-roll away from blowing a 3-1 series lead.

Miller got all of the attention because he was a showboat, ran his mouth and had a few big moments against the Knicks. Those Pacer teams were hardly referred to as "Reggie's Pacers", it wasn't like that at all. There were many games in their rivalry with the Knicks where stopping Rik Smits was a bigger problem than stopping Miller was.

Miller was frightening when he caught fire it was not a consistent "Oh ****, how do we stop Reggie tonight" sort of attitude.

Basketball Reference's HOF calculations have him in a similar class to Rip Hamilton, Mutumbo, Glen Rice, etc. They give him a 6% chance of making it to the HOF, which sounds about right to me. Meanwhile, Allen sits at 94%.

A guy I like to compare Reggie's game to, in terms of the impact on his team, was Allan Houston. Good scorer, capability of blowing up for big games every now and then, but not a historically great player.

I don't know where people are getting this, "he was a great leader, he inspired his team, he got under the opposition's skin" nonsense from. I never remember one person in the media bringing up Miller's leadership abilities back in the day.