Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

[wwharton]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

So I cant bring anything up unless a player is great at it?

And not every speedy guard can recover or roll off a screen after being hit with it man..,

Don't forget he is 6'1 185 pounds..Are you really going to sit here and act like I said he can guard LeBron James? And you didn't even bother to mention Wade which Rondo did a ok job against when defending him at times,

You specifically said "All he does is get steals, he's not that great of a defender most people think he is" but also says "He's one of the best defensive PG's in the league"..What does that even mean if you are claiming he doesn't do anything I said he does well? IMO, I don't think getting steals (or blocks) make you "one of the best defensive players at your position"

I pointed things out that he does well "compared to other PG's that has nothing to do with getting steals and said he can "hold his own against a Wade, LeBron or even Kobe if he's focused on staying with his man instead of going for a steal which is saying nothing more than he is a pretty good on ball defender.

I didn't go overboard with anything, just stating facts.

You keep mention the LeBron 3 but how many stops did they get when he switch? You're acting as if he all he does is swipe for the ball and gets beat. All the time. Which is ironic cause you just said "sticking to your man is a misconception in man 2 man basketball"

Go to your DVR and watch nobody else but Rondo. Then give more examples.

No, no, no, lmao. This type of post is why this is still going. And don't take it the wrong way, I've got no problem with the discussion but you're misreading so much.

First, I never said all he does is get steals. I said he's not as good of a defender as people think he is... bc he's not. When I hear he's the best defensive PG in the league and people praise his D with things like you mentioned, clearly the perception of his D is higher than the reality of it. But I also said, PGs are judged incorrectly when it comes to being good defenders in general, and the new rules make it damn near impossible to be a "shut down" defender at the PG position. Rondo is one of the best defensive PGs in the league, but he's not the best and he's not this great shut down option people want to claim him to be.

As for you bringing it up, you can bring up whatever you want but if it doesn't make sense WE will comment on that. So if you weren't saying he was a good defender in the PnR please explain why you brought it up in a post about the things you think he does well?

In that regard, no not every speedy guard recovers well but an average defensive guard should be able to no problem. I don't care how much he weighs... have no idea why that matters for recovering when getting hit by a screen. It's not like you run through it. The truth is there are many occasions when he gets hit and just stands there without even trying to recover. He's inconsistent. As for the switching, it's a team strategy... either you switch and your teammates respond accordingly, or you hedge and the guys behind you respond accordingly to that. Breaking it down even more, the guy guarding the dribbler at the very least needs to know which you're going to do. You can't just decide to switch or not whenever you want. Signals get crossed and it happens, but if I'm listing things someone is great at, I'm not going to include this when I know for a fact he goes rogue at times and leaves his teammates out to dry.

BTW, saying he can hold his own against Lebron or Kobe is saying he can guard them. I have NO idea how else you want us to interpret that. You're trying to switch it up a bit and saying "if he stays focused on his man" or whatever but it's still not true. One on one, he can't guard those guys. It's not like he gets embarrassed but again, not something I'm including in a list to praise him. He can guard anyone with help... so can a lot of other guys. He's got one of the greatest defensive leaders behind him helping.

You have kind of an all or nothing mentality. We can say Rondo is a great defender... great player. And still explain why he's not as great at some things as some say, and not the best player at his position. If you agree he's not the best then you're arguing just to argue here. We're not trying to knock the guy down. I said probably around this time last year that I hate discussions like this because instead of just focusing on how good they are it's always about needing to be the best. That invites others to point out faults and argue down exaggerations. Then everyone's labeled a Ha***. He's a great player and great defensive PG. He's not the best at either.

[Jukeman]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

This pretty much sums it up. Neither are THAT great defensively, honestly... but I also think many judge PG defense incorrectly. With today's rules it's hard for any PG to really be a "shut down" defensive player, and especially with the number of quick and talented PGs in the league right now that have to be defended. A good defensive PG is really hard to measure bc they have to be part of a good defensive team. If the guys behind them don't do their jobs well then the way a PG should be playing defense has to change dramatically. Both of these guys are good at what they do defensively... which is get steals.

I guess I missed read that.

I think we both looking at things differently. You clearly aren't taking account for how the player plays defense within the team, but instead individually.

You can't switch Rondo with Keyon Dooling and have the same results defensively as a team.

Anyways,(referencing your latest post) I see we are going from "great PNR player" to "Good" come on man...

I mentioned it because its more of a strength (compared to the other starting PG's in the league) rather that a weakness as you like to believe.

And the Ht/wt was for the LeBron.

The rest is you justifying things to make your point rather than facts man.

Who said I was listing things he was great at? For the record, I wasnt the person who said he was the best defensive (or PG for that matter) PG in the league so you aren't calling me out on anything

Funny thing is, as much of a Rondo fan I am, I don't think I ever said he was the best PG or even defensive PG in the league. Only thing close to that is when I said he would be a top 5 player (or best NBA player in the next 5 years...That was what 2-3 years ago?) I do say he is a top 5 PG and deserve to be mention with Paul and Deron AKA "Tier 1"

But again, I read some misleading post and respond with my opinion which is really facts because there are evidence to back it up.

and "Hold Own" is not in the Webster.

But where I come from, it means to not let up/ back down, taking a challenge win or lose. How many PG are taking that challenge of guarding LeBron or Kobe for a long stretch in games (not just defensive switches) and how many coaches trust their PG's to do so? How many of them have a respectable result considering the mismatch?

So to my original point, he doesnt gamble for steals when he decides to match up with his opposition, he can gamble because the C's is one of the best Defensive teams in the league. Why should he risk fouling playing up on PG's all game? He does more good than harm with the way he approach the defensive game with this team because he has the help to do so.

Thats being smart defensively.

IDK, maybe I should have listed things Paul did well so people didn't misinterpret my point of my post...

[wwharton]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

I guess I missed read that.

I think we both looking at things differently. You clearly aren't taking account for how the player plays defense within the team, but instead individually.

You can't switch Rondo with Keyon Dooling and have the same results defensively as a team.

Anyways,(referencing your latest post) I see we are going from "great PNR player" to "Good" come on man...

I mentioned it because its more of a strength (compared to the other starting PG's in the league) rather that a weakness as you like to believe.

And the Ht/wt was for the LeBron.

The rest is you justifying things to make your point rather than facts man.

Who said I was listing things he was great at? For the record, I wasnt the person who said he was the best defensive (or PG for that matter) PG in the league so you aren't calling me out on anything

I read some misleading post and respond with my opinion which is really facts because there are evidence to back it up.

and "Hold Own" is not in the Webster.

But where I come from, it means to not let up/ back down, taking a challenge win or lose. How many PG are taking that challenge of guarding LeBron or Kobe for a long stretch in games (not just defensive switches) and how many coaches trust their PG's to do so? How many of them have a respectable result considering the mismatch?

So to my original point, he doesnt gamble for steals when he decides to match up with his opposition, he can gamble because the C's is one of the best Defensive teams in the league. Why should he risk fouling playing up on PG's all game? He does more good than harm with the way he approach the defensive game with this team because he has the help to do so.

Thats being smart defensively.

Yes you did misread that. You have a chip on your shoulder and are looking to defend anything that can be interpreted as a huge negative against your boy. If I were worried about that being translated into "All he does is get steals" (which someone else actually did say and I disagree with, but it wasn't me) then I would've said they're good at playing the passing lanes, baiting players into passes and then jumping on the ball, having active hands when someone brings the ball down, etc.

I mean, seriously... look at the entire paragraph you quoted. My ENTIRE point was that it's pretty much impossible for ANY PG to be a great defensive player across all positions and responsibilities bc they're guarding other players that dominate the ball, are generally quick as hell and the rules are on the offensive player's side. You didn't mention that the bolded was talking about Rondo AND Paul. Basically, that great one on one defensive PG doesn't exist anymore so it's hard to really judge how good PGs are defensively. What we can judge are things like steals, and both are very good at that.

The rest is just... I don't know man. Switching Rondo with Dooling? Huh? I switched "great" to "good"? That's really what you're focusing on in this discussion? What does the ht/wt have to do with Lebron when you mentioned it when talking about PnRs?

I just presented an example where I, as a coach, would put a player on someone like James and it having nothing to do with thinking that guy can "hold his own" against him... and I'm not in their locker room or huddle, but my example was thought up with the parameters of how the Celtics have been defending in the series. There's too much focus on "He scored 40... who was guarding him?" or "He only scored 5... who was guarding him?" These aren't one on one games. Hell there are times when I would put my WORSE defender on the other team's best player... have him crowd him to discourage a jumper and the other 4 players in position to collapse when the guy drives. It's just not as simple as you want to make it seem.

[Jukeman]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

Yes you did misread that. You have a chip on your shoulder and are looking to defend anything that can be interpreted as a huge negative against your boy. If I were worried about that being translated into "All he does is get steals" (which someone else actually did say and I disagree with, but it wasn't me) then I would've said they're good at playing the passing lanes, baiting players into passes and then jumping on the ball, having active hands when someone brings the ball down, etc.

I mean, seriously... look at the entire paragraph you quoted. My ENTIRE point was that it's pretty much impossible for ANY PG to be a great defensive player across all positions and responsibilities bc they're guarding other players that dominate the ball, are generally quick as hell and the rules are on the offensive player's side. You didn't mention that the bolded was talking about Rondo AND Paul. Basically, that great one on one defensive PG doesn't exist anymore so it's hard to really judge how good PGs are defensively. What we can judge are things like steals, and both are very good at that.

The rest is just... I don't know man. Switching Rondo with Dooling? Huh? I switched "great" to "good"? That's really what you're focusing on in this discussion? What does the ht/wt have to do with Lebron when you mentioned it when talking about PnRs?

I just presented an example where I, as a coach, would put a player on someone like James and it having nothing to do with thinking that guy can "hold his own" against him... and I'm not in their locker room or huddle, but my example was thought up with the parameters of how the Celtics have been defending in the series. There's too much focus on "He scored 40... who was guarding him?" or "He only scored 5... who was guarding him?" These aren't one on one games. Hell there are times when I would put my WORSE defender on the other team's best player... have him crowd him to discourage a jumper and the other 4 players in position to collapse when the guy drives. It's just not as simple as you want to make it seem.

Where do you coach exactly?

Just curious.

Oh and you're basically making my points. Forget about the steals since "I misread". You said he's not that good of a defensive player as people make him out to be... You mention people saying he's this "shut down defensive player" ( I don't even remember reading that) which has nothing to do with me. So just disregard my post. I never claimed that at all, and like I said, I read some misleading post and pointed out what else he does well, nothing about my post said anything about him being a shutdown defender..

And steals and blocks aren't the only things you can judge if you watch the games...

Oh and its not me having a chip on my shoulder...People around here see things black or white with no grey area, which is evident in your post by trying to include me with people claiming he's "this great shut down defender'

[wwharton]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

Where do you coach exactly?

Just curious.

Oh and you're basically making my points.

And steals and blocks aren't the only things you can judge if you watch the games...

Coach HS ball. Have for 15 years, and have coached/worked camps/etc. for 20+ years.

Not sure what points of yours I'm making... I assume you're saying that's a bad thing, lol. You think Rondo's a great PG... I think he is too, so agreeing on something isn't horrible. I just see you stretching the truth on some things.

Last sentence is focusing on semantics again. I'm far from an expert but I know the defensive PG position and responsibilities better than anything. We can pull out tons of video and point out specific good and bad things about all the PGs in question, but there is absolutely no need for that. There is no argument of Rondo being a bad defender. In the discussion comparing Rondo and Paul defensively the main STAT that can tell us anything is steals... and they're both very good at getting them. Why are you focusing on this statement? I thought I explained what I meant by it last post. Either I'm missing your point focusing on it or you're just arguing to argue here.

My reply to your points were about Rondo excelling in the PnR, holding his own against players like Lebron and, to a lesser extent, his communication. If you weren't trying to show he's the best at his position (overall or defensively) there's no reason this discussion should've gone on this long. He's still damn good (wait, let me say great since I have to be consistent with my description even though my feelings haven't changed... lol), just not as good in those areas as you were making it seem.

[Jukeman]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

Coach HS ball. Have for 15 years, and have coached/worked camps/etc. for 20+ years.

That's pretty cool

My reply to your points were about Rondo excelling in the PnR, holding his own against players like Lebron and, to a lesser extent, his communication. If you weren't trying to show he's the best at his position (overall or defensively) there's no reason this discussion should've gone on this long. He's still damn good (wait, let me say great since I have to be consistent with my description even though my feelings haven't changed... lol), just not as good in those areas as you were making it seem.

And this is what I mean about Black and White.

This original point of my post was referring to "all he does is get steals" (disregard since I misread you) I was pointing out other intangibles he does well. I wasn't making a case for him to be the "best" at something, this thread is not even about being the best so I don't know why I have to make a case for him being the best...

And I don't see how saying Rondo: (To sum it up)

-Communicate well on defense
-Rotates well within the defense
-Fights off of screens
-above average on Ball defender
-above average def awareness

is making him seem too good

[wwharton]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

That's pretty cool



And this is what I mean about Black and White.

This original point of my post was referring to "all he does is get steals" (disregard since I misread you) I was pointing out other intangibles he does well. I wasn't making a case for him to be the "best" at something, this thread is not even about being the best so I don't know why I have to make a case for him being the best...

And I don't see how saying Rondo: (To sum it up)

-Communicate well on defense
-Rotates well within the defense
-Fights off of screens
-above average on Ball defender
-above average def awareness

is making him seem too good

I'll admit my roll in this going so far off course. For one, you're right, that isn't what the thread's about and I don't think anyone would be crazy to say they would build their team around Rondo (even though I wouldn't... but obviously PGs not being able to shoot FTs is a pet peeve of mine).

Circling back, I didn't have an issue with you responding to "all he does is get steals". I agree with you, that's oversimplifying big time. The way you present it here, I've got no problem with your point so we can say I misunderstood exactly what you were getting at too.

Decent discussion for misunderstandings.

[Jukeman]

I'll admit my roll in this going so far off course. For one, you're right, that isn't what the thread's about and I don't think anyone would be crazy to say they would build their team around Rondo (even though I wouldn't... but obviously PGs not being able to shoot FTs is a pet peeve of mine).

Circling back, I didn't have an issue with you responding to "all he does is get steals". I agree with you, that's oversimplifying big time. The way you present it here, I've got no problem with your point so we can say I misunderstood exactly what you were getting at too.

Decent discussion for misunderstandings.

No doubt.

Of course I am picking Rondo in this discussion but that doesn't mean I think he's the best PG at everything.

Bias aside tho,

If the league went into a fantasy draft and all contacts, injury history, etc wasn't wiped out from history (like a 2k fantasy league), Paul and Deron still wouldn't be a lock for me at 1st or 2nd PG chosen in my draft. Those guys aren't even 100% commited to their current team right now with their contract situation. Assuming I am the Hornets (#1 pick or any other small market team) I don't have to worry about losing my PG next year.

With Rondo, not only do I get a pretty good PG, I get a nice contract aswell.

[wwharton]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

No doubt.

Of course I am picking Rondo in this discussion but that doesn't mean I think he's the best PG at everything.

Bias aside tho,

If the league went into a fantasy draft and all contacts, injury history, etc wasn't wiped out from history (like a 2k fantasy league), Paul and Deron still wouldn't be a lock for me at 1st or 2nd PG chosen in my draft. Those guys aren't even 100% commited to their current team right now with their contract situation. Assuming I am the Hornets (#1 pick or any other small market team) I don't have to worry about losing my PG next year.

With Rondo, not only do I get a pretty good PG, I get a nice contract aswell.

Is it fair to look at it like that though? If you're gong to wipe everything out, should we keep the contract situations? Cuz if you put Paul back on the Hornets and Williams back on the Jazz and take their contract situations before they were even coming up on a new one I think you'd say the same thing about both of them.

Rondo's going to get paid too... and his loyalty to Boston may be tested when that day approaches.

[Jukeman]

Yea, if everyone's contract, injuries, etc was wiped then it would def be a different outcome.

In this case, I'd prolly pick D Rose...

Young, explosive and still not in his prime so he could end up developing Pure PG skills like a Paul, Deron, Nash or Rondo. He's also not a bad defender.

[TajDeni]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

Rondo. He makes all the players around him better.

so what happens if the team doesnt have any shooters.

i mean i think Rondo is fantastic, but it just goes the show ppl are always quick to 4get what they havent seen in awhile. and over-praise what they just saw.

D. Will easily if you want a guy that can do it all. run the team, pass, score, hit big shoots under pressure, defend, play alil off guard. i mean what cant he do. and id only take him over CP3 because he's bigger and more durable.

But Hondo is ballin

[RobD4477]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

Def. Kyrie I am biased since I am a Cavs fan but he is the Real Deal

[wheelman990]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

Def. Kyrie I am biased since I am a Cavs fan but he is the Real Deal

Kyrie is really great. I hope he keeps moving forward. I think he has a all star future in head of him. Hope Cleveland can build around him with younger players and look to make a deep playoff run in 3-5 years.

[DemiGodzillla]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

so what happens if the team doesnt have any shooters.

i mean i think Rondo is fantastic, but it just goes the show ppl are always quick to 4get what they havent seen in awhile. and over-praise what they just saw.

D. Will easily if you want a guy that can do it all. run the team, pass, score, hit big shoots under pressure, defend, play alil off guard. i mean what cant he do. and id only take him over CP3 because he's bigger and more durable.

But Hondo is ballin

I'm so sick of this argument that Rondo "needs shooters", if there's one PG in the league other than CP3 and D Will that doesn't "need shooters" it's Rondo, Rondo will get anyone on the floor the ball where they're comfortable getting it, if you're comfortable 10-18 feet, you'll get the ball there, if you're only comfortable at the rim, that's the only spot you'll get the ball, Rondo does more to run the offense than drive and kick to an open shooter. Everyone needs their teammates to make shots, no one wins by themselves, Rondo's no different, the difference in Rondo is he'll get more offense out of a less offensive player by getting them the ball where they're comfortable scoring from, even if it's one spot on the floor.

All that said, I'm taking Rose because he's the prototypical modern day PG that the league and every team is looking for on the court and he's an instant Franchise maker both in terms of production and in terms of jersey sales, shoes, marketing etc.

[burter]

Re: Which point guard do you choose to build your team around?

I picked Rondo. If he could get a jump shot he would be by far best in the league. But the off and on again jump shots hurt him.

Now if Nash was younger I would pick him over everyone. I would actually pick him now for a 1 year run with a team. The problem is, he is going to retire soon. Probably about 1 more year maybe 2, but what Nash did for the suns the last 2 years is just crazy especially last year. My team has a ton of scrubs. Well scrubs might be too hard of a word, but guys that would be more 6-8th man on the depth chart on a lot of teams rosters. To almost get them to the playoffs in the hard Western Conference still amazes me. I think if OKC can get him for a year, or lakers or heat, that team will win the championship next year.