Top 5 at each position

[DukeC]

Re: Top 5 at each position

The funny thing is the Kings lost every one of those games Boogie "dominated".

Now I don't say that to bash Cousins. I actually think he's a pretty good player. I bring it up because I believe people constantly overrate players who put up good numbers on bad teams. (Oh, hi Kevin Love!)

The nature of the NBA regular season is that the majority of the games are going to be close. It's basically a glorified pickup game for 3 quarters. Somebody on each team is going to score 20+. Somebody'sgoing to get 10+ rebounds etc......In the 4th quarter the men separate from the boys, and winning players make winning plays. Some teams win a lot, some lose a lot.

I've seen Lebron, Kobe, Dwight, D-Wade, D-Rose, Dirk, Garnett, Durant, Melo, and all the true "stars" of the game make the playoffs surrounded by mediocre talent. I don't care how good your stats are. If you can't crack an 8 seed in the NBA I can't consider you one of the best at anything except collecting worthless stats.

End of rant. Let the Boogie Cousins debate continue.

Well, there is a reason why we lost those games despite him dominating. Our defense is the 3rd worst in the league. Do you see how big we were leading at one point? Only for it to evaporate in the same quarter? Cousins has a problem with foul trouble which means we have to take him out for a time and it's lengthy enough for us to lose that lead.

Even with Cousins in the game our defense is still pretty bad, but when he's out it takes a drastic turn for the worse.

[SteelersFreak]

Re: Top 5 at each position

The funny thing is the Kings lost every one of those games Boogie "dominated".

That's pretty bad logic.

[J_Posse]

I don't put much weight in potential when talking about a top (insert #) right now, so I would have to take his inconsistency and fouling issues into account. Still not sure I wouldn't keep him at 3 though. I'd have to look into it more so I'm not really arguing against cousins. It was really the Parker and Harden comments that caught my eye.

Ginobli's injury issues could be an issue with his placement, I could see that. But whether it's Ginobli or someone else, Harden doesn't deserve this much recognition imo. He still needs to prove to me he's not just Ben Gordon. If Gordon's entire career was in a controlled roll like Harden's has been, is there really much of a difference? It may be a similar case of there just not being that many SGs worth mentioning at all so his name is up there by default but that's hard for me to believe.

Comparing an undersized, one-dimesional player like Ben Gordon to Harden is laughable. Harden is a better decision-maker, passer, rebounder, ball-handler and scorer. Gordon is useless if he isn't coming off a screen or catching and shooting. Harden can score almost every way imaginable for a 2 guard. And, even I a Spurs fan can admit the kid is better than Manu.

In your other post you touched on the combo guards. I think you just have to throw them on a list... or both guard lists. That would make more sense than leaving them off both lists completely. Again, don't have any names I'm talking about right now. Just a feeling that some aren't considered bc they don't have a real position (even though I'd put Harden in that category and he is getting love).

Shooting guard is the second weakest position in the league, by far. The drop off from Wade and Bryant is just as steep from the center position. Joe Johnson is a small forward masquerading as a shooting guard, Ginobili is on the decline, Eric Gordon is often injured and Monta Ellis is an Allen Iverson clone (i.e. all offense).

Harden isn't being given enough credit for the strides he's made. Sure, he faltered in the Finals, but his clutch shoots and baskets in the first 3 rounds can't be ignored. He does most everything on the court well, except defend, and was/is the best decision maker on the Thunder. He'd be an all-star and starter on an other team, yet it speaks to his character that he accepts the 6th man role. A role that I doubt Westbrook or Durant would ever embrace.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

[DIESEL]

Re: Top 5 at each position

However, I disagree that you think putting up good numbers on bad teams makes you overrated. Kevin Loves is not overrated. It's not easy to put up good numbers when you're on a bad team, reason is because every team you play is keyed on stopping you.. Every team T-Wolves play teams gameplan is to stop Love and he's still a monster.. So you can't undervalue great stats when you're the only star on your team and other teams are going for your head everynight.

This is where we differ. I think it's easier than you think to get numbers without winning. The NBA season is too long for teams to be going after anyone's head every night.

Very rarely do you see a full intense defensive effort by any team for 48 minutes. The good teams keep the games close and turn it on when they have to. Go head and get your stats but can you make plays when it matters?

It doesn't even have to be scoring. There are lots of ways to win a ball game and make your team better. It appeared to me in his short time on the floor Rubio had a bigger impact in wins and losses for Minny then K. Love ever has.

And just to clarify, I like Kevin Love. I think he's a GOOD player on a bad team and is one of the very few players who gives 100% every night.

Well, there is a reason why we lost those games despite him dominating. Our defense is the 3rd worst in the league. Do you see how big we were leading at one point? Only for it to evaporate in the same quarter? Cousins has a problem with foul trouble which means we have to take him out for a time and it's lengthy enough for us to lose that lead.

Even with Cousins in the game our defense is still pretty bad, but when he's out it takes a drastic turn for the worse.

Well last time I checked you're playing defense roughly 50% of the time you're on the floor. The fact team is so poor defensively and Boogie can't stay out of foul trouble tells me that's a major weakness in his game.

So as much as he may dominate on one end he appears to be a major liability half of the time.

That's pretty bad logic.

DukeC posted highlights of 4 games to showcase Boogie dominating.The Kings lost all 4 games. That's not any of my logic, it's a fact.

[SteelersFreak]

Re: Top 5 at each position

DukeC posted highlights of 4 games to showcase Boogie dominating.The Kings lost all 4 games. That's not any of my logic, it's a fact.

So because his team (which was not good, at all) lost, it invalidates what he did? That's what you insinuated.

[DIESEL]

Re: Top 5 at each position

So because his team (which was not good, at all) lost, it invalidates what he did? That's what you insinuated.

It doesn't invalidate what he did, but it does indicate a trend. Why does this team continue to lose while this guy is supposedly dominating?

You know that a single great player on a basketball team can make all the difference between winning and losing. Especially in the regular season.

If I asked you to pull up highlights of Dirk's best 4 games for any season in the last 10 years what are the chances the Mavs lost everyone of them?

Those Boogie highlights were against the Warriors, Rockets, Suns, and the D-Roseless Bulls. I saw a guy score a lot of points and get a lot of rebounds. Somehow no matter how well he played they couldn't beat any of those powerhouses.

For the most part in this league, when the truly great players play their best they win regardless of who else is on their team. All I'm saying is stats are nice, wins are better.

[DukeC]

Re: Top 5 at each position

@Diesel

If a TEAM can't commit to defense then you can't put that on a player. Also, since you want to pull the win record card....

Paul Pierce has been a part of the Celtics since 98-99, his rookie season. You know what his first 3 seasons were like?

19-31
35-47
36-46.

You know what he averaged?

98: 16.5 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1 BPG, and 1.7 SPG
99: 19.5 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 3.0 APG, .8 BPG, and 2.1 SPG
00: 25.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 3.1 APG, .8 BPG, and 1.7 SPG

But that's obviously Pierce's fault though?

How bout Durant for a more recent and fair comparison?

Durant has been with Oklahoma/Seattle since 07-08. His first two seasons?

20-62
23-59

You know what he averaged?

07-08: 20.3 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 2.4 APG, .9 BPG, and 1.0 SPG
08-09: 25.3 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 2.8 APG, .7 BPG, and 1.3 SPG

You know what all these guys had in common thier first couple of years? Sucky teams who couldn't play a lick of defense.

Why did Paul Pierce's win percentage jump up after 2000? Hi Antoine Walker.

Why did Kevin Durant's team improve similarly? Hi Russel and Harden. And later on Ibaka.

So that argument about a single dominant player leading you to winning games on a regular basis? Yeah, not true so much. Especially when your team as a whole just plain sucks.

Edit: OR if you STILL wish to pursue this argument...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vKVyWqdqLTI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/I1kF80bRDxY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What happened here? They each dominated the game...yet they still lost....

[JODYE]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Westbrook is not a top 5 PG in any regard IMO

I refuse to believe that a player with the worst AST/TO among EVERY qualifying PG can be considered top 5 in a position that values taking care of the ball.

Might just be my personal preference. He's 8-9 because of his elite scoring ability, but makes too many bonehead mistakes, and plays out of control at times, and doesn't really make anybody around him better.

Just my 2 cents. Don't feel like compiling a full list. All I know, is everyone's list should should have Chris Paul as the number 1 PG. That is all lol

[BringTheHeat]

Re: Top 5 at each position

PG:
1. Rajon Rondo
2. Chris Paul
3. Steve Nash
4. Derrick Rose
5. Deron Williams

SG:
1. Dwyane Wade (comeback year)
2. Kobe Bryant

3. Joe Johnson
4. Eric Gordon
5. Monta Ellis

SF:
1. LeBron James
2. Carmelo Anthony
3. Kevin Durant
4. Paul Pierce
5. Rudy Gay

PF:
1. Kevin Garnett
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Tim Duncan
4. LaMarcus Aldridge
5. Chris Bosh]

C:
1. Andrew Bynum
2. Dwight Howard
3. Marc Gasol
4. Roy Hibbert
5. Tyson Chandler

[wwharton]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Shooting guard is the second weakest position in the league, by far. The drop off from Wade and Bryant is just as steep from the center position. Joe Johnson is a small forward masquerading as a shooting guard, Ginobili is on the decline, Eric Gordon is often injured and Monta Ellis is an Allen Iverson clone (i.e. all offense).

Harden isn't being given enough credit for the strides he's made. Sure, he faltered in the Finals, but his clutch shoots and baskets in the first 3 rounds can't be ignored. He does most everything on the court well, except defend, and was/is the best decision maker on the Thunder. He'd be an all-star and starter on an other team, yet it speaks to his character that he accepts the 6th man role. A role that I doubt Westbrook or Durant would ever embrace.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

I can agree with the gap and break down of SGs. I can also see how that brings Harden closer to relevance. But you lost me when you said "He'd be an all-star and starter on any other team. My opinion isn't a reaction to his finals play. I've got the guy in a keeper league, lol. I've been watching him pretty closely since he was drafted and I'm a fan. But keeping it real, he's not THAT good. He's still young and therefore still has potential but he's being way overhyped. And who says he accepts the 6th man role? He's got no choice but to play it, but that doesn't mean he likes it. Meanwhile Westbrook or Durant SHOULDN'T embrace it bc they are two of the best players in the league and the best scoring options on their team by a very, very large margin. You bring Durant in off the bench on Team USA and I'm pretty sure he'd be fine with that.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I guess he thinks since Harden has never come out publicly and said otherwise, then that means he accepts it.

I'm curious to know the list of players who have gone from being strictly a 6th Man option off the bench to Starter/All Star Caliber(which doesn't say much since Fans are voting for the Starters, so then you'd be relying on the Coaches to add him on).

[wwharton]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I guess he thinks since Harden has never come out publicly and said otherwise, then that means he accepts it.

I'm curious to know the list of players who have gone from being strictly a 6th Man option off the bench to Starter/All Star Caliber(which doesn't say much since Fans are voting for the Starters, so then you'd be relying on the Coaches to add him on).

Says even more IMO bc fans vote for who they like and coaches should be voting for who's deserving. But I'm not trying to break down Harden, I'm a fan but I'd like to see that list too. Again, Ben Gordon's career stats across the board are similar to Harden's "break out year" stats. They're similar players... I've never heard anyone think Ben Gordon was a top 5 SG, or someone who would start on any team and be an all star. Harden's young and could continue growing... maybe he becomes the great player he's being labeled as right now, but he's not there. Not by a long shot.

[iAM-IncReDiBLe-]

My List:
PG- Deron, Rondo, CP3, Westbrook, Rose
SG- Kobe, Wade, Johnson, Gordon, Manu
SF- Bron, Durant, Melo, Iggy, Gay
PF- Love, Aldridge, Dirk, Gasol, Blake
C- Dwight, Bynum, Al Jefferson, Hibbert, Gasol

Best list I seen yet. Only changes I would make is Rose in front of Westbrook, switch Manu with Monta Ellis, take off Blake for Z-Bo and switch Iggy with Josh Smith.

[J_Posse]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Says even more IMO bc fans vote for who they like and coaches should be voting for who's deserving. But I'm not trying to break down Harden, I'm a fan but I'd like to see that list too. Again, Ben Gordon's career stats across the board are similar to Harden's "break out year" stats. They're similar players... I've never heard anyone think Ben Gordon was a top 5 SG, or someone who would start on any team and be an all star. Harden's young and could continue growing... maybe he becomes the great player he's being labeled as right now, but he's not there. Not by a long shot.

I certainly wouldn't label Harden as great, but were talking about a weak position that has seen one top player retire (then return), another decline because of injury and then a bunch combo guards and swingmen playing out of position. I don't believe Harden is elite, yet I do believe that 2 guard position is in such disarray that he deserves mention behind Wade, Bryant, Ellis and Johnson. I think his superior size and decision making nullifies any comparison to the chucker, Ben Gordon.

He need only improve his overall production, which is hampered by his role and teammates, and defensive effort (which may never happen) in my eyes. I said it during the WCF and it bares repeating, Harden can become the best shooting guard in the league if his defense ever catches up to his offense.

I believe it has also been mentioned on more than one occassion that Harden would prefer to start, even made a mention of it on 2K12, but his instant offfensive spark is best suited off the bench. Who else could Brooks look to bring offense if he started Harden, Durant and Westbrook? They don't have a reserve or starter outside of those three that brings consistent offense, while also creating for others.

Answer to Pack's question, Manu Ginobili was a super sub his rookie season and made the all-star team twice as a starter. Harden has a chance to equal or best that, obviously.

[ojandpizza]

I agree Harden is a good player and probably the best 6th man in the league but to say he could start for almost any team in the league is a bold statement.. He doesn't even start for his team.. Sure they like his scoring off the bench and he probably should start but HE DOESN'T.. All you see his the scoring numbers he puts up in games, you don't see what goes on off the court, or how he performs in practice, or how well he listens to his coach.. For all we know Sefalosha could be dominating him every day in practice..

Anyways my point is, there comes a point where if you're that good you start, regardless of what the other guy does or how effective you are off the bench.. For example, the Lakers wouldn't start another SG over Kobe just because they wanted more ball movement and Kobe doesn't pass much, if Harden was that much better than the guy ahead of him he would start regardless of what the team needed or that Sefalosha is a little better on D.. Therefor to me he's isn't a top 5 SG