Top 5 at each position

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  • wwharton
    *ll St*r
    • Aug 2002
    • 26949

    #181
    Re: Top 5 at each position

    Found the original post you replied to.

    Moving westbrook to the 2 fixes that. I'd rather have him at the 2 than a pg who is only effective with 3-4 shooters on the court.
    "Only effective with" is a bit much, but in comparing all PGs in question, Rondo's weaknesses are much easier to gameplan against if he's not surrounded by shooters (not scorers but shooters). Conversely surrounding Westbrook with shooters is kind of pointless. But, it's still harder to use that against him bc when he's on, he's still scoring at a high level. Rondo can be on, but also needs the guys around him to be as well. That's how I took what he was saying, which I agree with.

    Doesn't mean I'd rather roll out Westbrook as my starting PG than Rondo, but is a reason Rondo wouldn't top my personal list (and this most definitely is all opinion). He scored 44 points and they lost. The defensive strategy was pretty much "let Rondo try to shoot his way to 50" and it worked. He played a hell of a game if we take half those points away... but lets be honest, half those points came on shots where they left him about as open as if he were shooting in the gym by himself. It was an exaggerated approach. A modified approach against him on a team with more drivers than shooters would've been just as effective for the team and more effective against him. He's not even taking most of those shots, let alone making them if the defenders were even a step closer... still giving enough space to cut off his drive. I'm not taking anything away from him in that game but it's definitely a performance to be evaluated beyond the stats (his points anyway... the rest of his stat sheet was filled strictly by him being Rondo).

    Anyway, you're right. Based on what you're responding to, I'm going a bit hard on you. But I do look at "only effective with 3-4 shooters on the court" is just purposely exaggerating a legitimate point for why you'd choose one over the other. There are still other legit points for why you'd choose Rondo over Westbrook.

    Comment

    • iLLosophy
      Plata o Plomo
      • Sep 2005
      • 3673

      #182
      Re: Top 5 at each position

      Originally posted by wwharton
      "Only effective with" is a bit much
      Is it really? Dude was blessed to be on a team with Paul Pierce, then 2 other future Hall of Famers showed up. Rondo has the same problem as Ryan Anderson and Marcin Gortat. They have great stats, but it's hard to imagine them producing the same results without certain teammates. Both of them have stats to warrant appearing on these top 5 lists, yet I haven't seen either one mentioned.

      Rondo is very very very good at core point guard skills hands down. His value to the Celtics is great because they don't need him to score. But it also does not translate well to other teams. In this age of scoring point guards - he could never replace CP3 on the Hornets, Derrick Rose on the bulls, Deron on the Jazz, Nash on the Suns, or even Kyrie Irving on the Cavs.

      He's basically a very poor man's Jason Kidd - and Kidd learning how to shoot opened up possibilities that Rondo is only starting to realize... Hopefully Rondo hitting those shots to seal the Philly series will be the epiphany he needs to actually get his jumper down and try to bring these old guys another ring. But until then, I can't put him top 5...
      Last edited by iLLosophy; 07-14-2012, 08:07 PM.

      Comment

      • Paul Pierce_OS
        Don't Kill My Vibe
        • Sep 2011
        • 4626

        #183
        Originally posted by iLLosophy
        Is it really? Dude was blessed to be on a team with Paul Pierce, then 2 other future Hall of Famers showed up. Rondo has the same problem as Ryan Anderson and Marcin Gortat. They have great stats, but it's hard to imagine them producing the same results without certain teammates. Both of them have stats to warrant appearing on these top 5 lists, yet I haven't seen either one mentioned.

        Rondo is very very very good at core point guard skills hands down. His value to the Celtics is great because they don't need him to score. But it also does not translate well to other teams. In this age of scoring point guards - he could never replace CP3 on the Hornets, Derrick Rose on the bulls, Deron on the Jazz, Nash on the Suns, or even Kyrie Irving on the Cavs.

        He's basically a very poor man's Jason Kidd - and Kidd learning how to shoot opened up possibilities that Rondo is only starting to realize... Hopefully Rondo hitting those shots to seal the Philly series will be the epiphany he needs to actually get his jumper down and try to bring these old guys another ring. But until then, I can't put him top 5...
        Disagree, with this rondo can score and putting his name with gortat is insulting.


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        Comment

        • ZB9
          Hall Of Fame
          • Nov 2004
          • 18387

          #184
          Re: Top 5 at each position

          Love is a TREMENDOUS player obviously

          but I have a hard time saying that he is the best PF in the world

          Idk if he makes other players better on the court like the other greatest PFs in history have done (not talking about assists)

          Comment

          • wwharton
            *ll St*r
            • Aug 2002
            • 26949

            #185
            Re: Top 5 at each position

            Originally posted by iLLosophy
            Is it really? Dude was blessed to be on a team with Paul Pierce, then 2 other future Hall of Famers showed up. Rondo has the same problem as Ryan Anderson and Marcin Gortat. They have great stats, but it's hard to imagine them producing the same results without certain teammates. Both of them have stats to warrant appearing on these top 5 lists, yet I haven't seen either one mentioned.

            Rondo is very very very good at core point guard skills hands down. His value to the Celtics is great because they don't need him to score. But it also does not translate well to other teams. In this age of scoring point guards - he could never replace CP3 on the Hornets, Derrick Rose on the bulls, Deron on the Jazz, Nash on the Suns, or even Kyrie Irving on the Cavs.

            He's basically a very poor man's Jason Kidd - and Kidd learning how to shoot opened up possibilities that Rondo is only starting to realize... Hopefully Rondo hitting those shots to seal the Philly series will be the epiphany he needs to actually get his jumper down and try to bring these old guys another ring. But until then, I can't put him top 5...
            Yes, it really is. Not going to get in a debate of whether he should be 4th, 5th, 6th or whatever in some ranking. But Rondo has great court vision and awareness of how to set up players. He attacks the boards on both ends of the floor, and while I think he gets overrated as a defender he's one of the best defensive PGs in the league. All of these things translate to any team and any combination of players. So "only effective with..." is a bit much.

            Comment

            • ojandpizza
              Hall Of Fame
              • Apr 2011
              • 29807

              #186
              Originally posted by iLLosophy
              Is it really? Dude was blessed to be on a team with Paul Pierce, then 2 other future Hall of Famers showed up. Rondo has the same problem as Ryan Anderson and Marcin Gortat. They have great stats, but it's hard to imagine them producing the same results without certain teammates. Both of them have stats to warrant appearing on these top 5 lists, yet I haven't seen either one mentioned.

              Rondo is very very very good at core point guard skills hands down. His value to the Celtics is great because they don't need him to score. But it also does not translate well to other teams. In this age of scoring point guards - he could never replace CP3 on the Hornets, Derrick Rose on the bulls, Deron on the Jazz, Nash on the Suns, or even Kyrie Irving on the Cavs.

              He's basically a very poor man's Jason Kidd - and Kidd learning how to shoot opened up possibilities that Rondo is only starting to realize... Hopefully Rondo hitting those shots to seal the Philly series will be the epiphany he needs to actually get his jumper down and try to bring these old guys another ring. But until then, I can't put him top 5...
              To the " he could never replace CP3 on the Hornets, Derrick Rose on the bulls, Deron on the Jazz, Nash on the Suns, or even Kyrie Irving on the Cavs." why should he have to replace any of those guys to show he's a great player? As far as I'm concerned he's too busy winning games and quarterbacking his team to NBA finals and Eastern conference finals appearances..idk how Rondo wouldn't be effective playing on another team besides the C's, it's not like anywhere he throws the ball it's an automatic assist. There is way better shooting teams in the league than the Celtics.. Plus his versatility on defense is unmatched by any other PG in the league.

              Comment

              • wwharton
                *ll St*r
                • Aug 2002
                • 26949

                #187
                Re: Top 5 at each position

                Originally posted by ojandpizza
                To the " he could never replace CP3 on the Hornets, Derrick Rose on the bulls, Deron on the Jazz, Nash on the Suns, or even Kyrie Irving on the Cavs." why should he have to replace any of those guys to show he's a great player? As far as I'm concerned he's too busy winning games and quarterbacking his team to NBA finals and Eastern conference finals appearances..idk how Rondo wouldn't be effective playing on another team besides the C's, it's not like anywhere he throws the ball it's an automatic assist. There is way better shooting teams in the league than the Celtics.. Plus his versatility on defense is unmatched by any other PG in the league.
                I'm just bouncing all around on the Rondo topic, lol. I agree with your post but I don't know about his "versatility on defense" being unmatched by any other PG. He's a good defensive PG... could be the best in the league but it is within question. I don't know what versatility you're talking about though. Any team with an overall great defense can stick a player on someone like say, Lebron, and have the players behind him set up for it to be effective. There's a big misunderstanding that all cases have one player guarding one other player and if the guy has trouble scoring all the credit goes to the one guarding him. Rondo makes a ton of individual errors on the defensive end just like pretty much every other PG in the NBA today.

                Comment

                • Jukeman
                  Showtime
                  • Aug 2005
                  • 10955

                  #188
                  Originally posted by wwharton
                  I'm just bouncing all around on the Rondo topic, lol. I agree with your post but I don't know about his "versatility on defense" being unmatched by any other PG. He's a good defensive PG... could be the best in the league but it is within question. I don't know what versatility you're talking about though. Any team with an overall great defense can stick a player on someone like say, Lebron, and have the players behind him set up for it to be effective. There's a big misunderstanding that all cases have one player guarding one other player and if the guy has trouble scoring all the credit goes to the one guarding him. Rondo makes a ton of individual errors on the defensive end just like pretty much every other PG in the NBA today.
                  I think the versatility he's talking bout is that the Celtics have the option to put him on someone like LeBron to benefit the rest of the defense, not necessarily shutting him down 1 on 1 but like you said having players behind him benefiting from the matchup. I wouldnt really say you can put any PG on a player like LeBron while having a great defense. Im confident that this strategy wouldnt be effective with atleast half the starting PG in the leauge, for one, Rondo has a hellava lenght advantage (6'10 wingspan)

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                  Last edited by Jukeman; 07-16-2012, 01:12 PM.

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                  • wwharton
                    *ll St*r
                    • Aug 2002
                    • 26949

                    #189
                    Re: Top 5 at each position

                    Originally posted by Jukeman
                    I think the versatility he's talking bout is that the Celtics have the option to put him on someone like LeBron to benefit the rest of the defense, not necessarily shutting him down 1 on 1 but like you said having players behind him benefiting from the matchup. I wouldnt really say you can put any PG on a player like LeBron while having a great defense. Im confident that this strategy wouldnt be effective with atleast half the starting PG in the leauge, for one, Rondo has a hellava lenght advantage (6'10 wingspan)
                    Half the PGs in the league probably not. But he's far from the only one... more importantly, the Celtics have this option bc of the team make up and strategy. If we're talking about his individual versatility, I can't give him too much credit for being put in a position that works bc of the team he's on.

                    I also think more PGs could do what he'd be asked to do than you think (assuming "half the league" was just thrown out there... I don't think half the PGs in the league could play D as well as Rondo in any regard). If I'm a coach without an individual to lock up James (every coach in the NBA basically) and a great team defense, I could put a small but quick guard on him. I'd have the PG keep James in front of him and welcome the long jump shot. James' advantage in height means he can shoot over him but that's the shot I want him to take. The best way to combat that would be to get the ball to James in the post and have him show his improved post game. He should destroy Rondo or any other PG in the post but that's on James. Remember Dallas put PGs on him as well and he struggled against them in the post. If he started to go off you'd have to make a defensive adjustment. It's not like Rondo can really guard the guy in every situation. He's a good defender but what you're talking about is what Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Kevin Garnett would do. That's not Rondo. He naturally is really only going to be guarding PGs and SGs. Any other match up is situational and with help.

                    Comment

                    • Jukeman
                      Showtime
                      • Aug 2005
                      • 10955

                      #190
                      Originally posted by wwharton
                      Half the PGs in the league probably not. But he's far from the only one... more importantly, the Celtics have this option bc of the team make up and strategy. If we're talking about his individual versatility, I can't give him too much credit for being put in a position that works bc of the team he's on.

                      I also think more PGs could do what he'd be asked to do than you think (assuming "half the league" was just thrown out there... I don't think half the PGs in the league could play D as well as Rondo in any regard). If I'm a coach without an individual to lock up James (every coach in the NBA basically) and a great team defense, I could put a small but quick guard on him. I'd have the PG keep James in front of him and welcome the long jump shot. James' advantage in height means he can shoot over him but that's the shot I want him to take. The best way to combat that would be to get the ball to James in the post and have him show his improved post game. He should destroy Rondo or any other PG in the post but that's on James. Remember Dallas put PGs on him as well and he struggled against them in the post. If he started to go off you'd have to make a defensive adjustment. It's not like Rondo can really guard the guy in every situation. He's a good defender but what you're talking about is what Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Kevin Garnett would do. That's not Rondo. He naturally is really only going to be guarding PGs and SGs. Any other match up is situational and with help.
                      Well yea, Kidd is one of the best defensive PG ever plus he's 6'4 and Marion + Stevenson whore LeBron down for most of the games.

                      Comment

                      • wwharton
                        *ll St*r
                        • Aug 2002
                        • 26949

                        #191
                        Re: Top 5 at each position

                        Originally posted by Jukeman
                        Well yea, Kidd is one of the best defensive PG ever plus he's 6'4 and Marion + Stevenson whore LeBron down for most of the games.
                        I'm talking specifically about the situation in question. Marion and Stevenson did a great job but those are more traditional match ups. Kidd and Berrea shouldn't have had a chance guarding James the way they did. Lebron on the post with 4 to 8 inches over the guy guarding him and no double team should've dominated and forced them to adjust. His head and game just weren't capable. Either way, that's how you can get away with a guy like Rondo guarding him... quick enough to keep him in front; a pedestrian challenge on the long jump shot but that's the shot you want James to take; worry about him posting the smaller guy up but it's in Lebron's hands how successful that would be. Basically, it's a team strategy not a benefit of Rondo's versatility. Defensively he's most definitely just a guard.

                        Comment

                        • ZB9
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 18387

                          #192
                          Re: Top 5 at each position

                          Originally posted by wwharton
                          I'm talking specifically about the situation in question. Marion and Stevenson did a great job but those are more traditional match ups. Kidd and Berrea shouldn't have had a chance guarding James the way they did. Lebron on the post with 4 to 8 inches over the guy guarding him and no double team should've dominated and forced them to adjust. His head and game just weren't capable. Either way, that's how you can get away with a guy like Rondo guarding him... quick enough to keep him in front; a pedestrian challenge on the long jump shot but that's the shot you want James to take; worry about him posting the smaller guy up but it's in Lebron's hands how successful that would be. Basically, it's a team strategy not a benefit of Rondo's versatility. Defensively he's most definitely just a guard.
                          Barea was never on James. Kidd guarded him some, but not as much as Marion and Stevenson

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                          • wwharton
                            *ll St*r
                            • Aug 2002
                            • 26949

                            #193
                            Re: Top 5 at each position

                            Originally posted by ZB9
                            Barea was never on James. Kidd guarded him some, but not as much as Marion and Stevenson
                            Yeah he was... James posted him up twice. He may not have been assigned to him in a man to man setting (was likely in their zone) but I'm talking about James' biggest advantage against a PG and how just a year ago, he wasn't capable of doing much with it. Just an example of why the strategy of putting a Rondo on a James could work outside of the assumption that Rondo is just so good he can guard James.

                            Comment

                            • Jukeman
                              Showtime
                              • Aug 2005
                              • 10955

                              #194
                              Originally posted by wwharton
                              Just an example of why the strategy of putting a Rondo on a James could work outside of the assumption that Rondo is just so good he can guard James.
                              I dont think anyone said that.

                              Comment

                              • ZB9
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Nov 2004
                                • 18387

                                #195
                                Re: Top 5 at each position

                                Originally posted by wwharton
                                Yeah he was... James posted him up twice. He may not have been assigned to him in a man to man setting (was likely in their zone) but I'm talking about James' biggest advantage against a PG and how just a year ago, he wasn't capable of doing much with it. Just an example of why the strategy of putting a Rondo on a James could work outside of the assumption that Rondo is just so good he can guard James.
                                Actually, you're right. He did get switched on him once. I forgot. I don't remember twice though. The only other time i remember JJ on him, a second man helped.

                                As far as Rondo, he might be similar to JKidd on offense, but he's not JKidd as far as defensive skill. Perhaps they could get away with it if they only used it a few times as a change up in a match up zone. I agree with that Rondo's not good enough that he can guard James consistently.

                                Boston could make Lebron work a lot on defense, chasing JET around, but I doubt Miami would give Lebron that assignment again.
                                Last edited by ZB9; 07-16-2012, 03:54 PM.

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