Top 5 at each position

[SteelersFreak]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Well yea, Kidd is one of the best defensive PG ever plus he's 6'4 and Marion + Stevenson whore LeBron down for most of the games.

They did WHAT?

[Jukeman]

They did WHAT?

Just noticed that

[wwharton]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I dont think anyone said that.

Here's your quote...

I think the versatility he's talking bout is that the Celtics have the option to put him on someone like LeBron to benefit the rest of the defense, not necessarily shutting him down 1 on 1 but like you said having players behind him benefiting from the matchup.

What am I missing? Do you just have a problem with the way I worded it?

This discussion I've been explaining how coaches with good overall defenses could successfully put a PG on someone like Lebron, which is why I don't consider it a notch in Rondo's resume that the Celtics are able to do it. Grouping the whole discussion together that should be pretty clear, no?

[Jukeman]

Here's your quote...



What am I missing? Do you just have a problem with the way I worded it?

This discussion I've been explaining how coaches with good overall defenses could successfully put a PG on someone like Lebron, which is why I don't consider it a notch in Rondo's resume that the Celtics are able to do it. Grouping the whole discussion together that should be pretty clear, no?

"Rondo is just so good he can guard James."

My post doesn't translate to anything near that. In fact, we had that discussion before.


While I am not saying "Rondo is just so good he can guard James." at the same time you just cant plug any PG into that role and expect the same outcome from the C's when they gave him the assignments. Yes it makes sense on paper but if it was that easy, we'd see all good defensive teams match up their PG with LeBron.

Like I said before, Rondo has a wingspan unlike most PG in the NBA and along with the speed.

While "unmatched" is a stretch I pretty much get the point the original poster was talking about with Rondo's versatility. It is a notch IMO, because most starting PG wouldnt be able to play that role, let alone play it for an entire half..

[wwharton]

Re: Top 5 at each position

"Rondo is just so good he can guard James."

My post doesn't translate to anything near that. In fact, we had that discussion before.


While I am not saying "Rondo is just so good he can guard James." at the same time you just cant plug any PG into that role and expect the same outcome from the C's when they gave him the assignments. Yes it makes sense on paper but if it was that easy, we'd see all good defensive teams match up their PG with LeBron.

Like I said before, Rondo has a wingspan unlike most PG in the NBA and along with the speed.

So you really are just arguing semantics of that one post despite being in the middle of this discussion that's been going on all day. SMH

In an attempt to stop this from going further off topic bc of one of the few occasions I didn't write a book of a post to cover every possible way something could be interpreted a different way, I'll summarize.

Topic I'm discussing: Rondo is the most versatile defensive PG in the NBA

My response: Basketball defense is more "team" than individual so the Celtics matching him up on Lebron occasionally does not mean he's versatile enough to guard Lebron. It means the team is built in a way to have a somewhat effective defensive strategy where he's matched up with him. It's a point for the team, not Rondo. If he were on a team with a lesser defense behind him it wouldn't work. And if Lebron (or whoever we're talking about him guarding out of position) had an effective post game it wouldn't work.

All other details in earlier posts (which should only be used in the context of THIS discussion). His wing span helps him on defense but not to the point where he can effectively individually guard SFs, PFs or Cs. If this is going to be a debate can I hear any other reason he's the "most versatile PG in the league" besides "the Celtics put him on Lebron occasionally"?

[ojandpizza]

I didn't mean he can shut down a LeBron one on one, I just think he is very versatile on defense, maybe not more than any PG in the league but more than most the guys listed as PGs on these top 5 lists.. And that may very well be because of his team and their defense.. but if he's so good at defense because of his team and as some people said only effective on offense because of his team, maybe he fits into a team concept better than any PG in the legue.. Isn't that what a PG is supposed to do?

[Jukeman]

So you really are just arguing semantics of that one post despite being in the middle of this discussion that's been going on all day. SMH

In an attempt to stop this from going further off topic bc of one of the few occasions I didn't write a book of a post to cover every possible way something could be interpreted a different way, I'll summarize.

Topic I'm discussing: Rondo is the most versatile defensive PG in the NBA

My response: Basketball defense is more "team" than individual so the Celtics matching him up on Lebron occasionally does not mean he's versatile enough to guard Lebron. It means the team is built in a way to have a somewhat effective defensive strategy where he's matched up with him. It's a point for the team, not Rondo. If he were on a team with a lesser defense behind him it wouldn't work. And if Lebron (or whoever we're talking about him guarding out of position) had an effective post game it wouldn't work.

All other details in earlier posts (which should only be used in the context of THIS discussion). His wing span helps him on defense but not to the point where he can effectively individually guard SFs, PFs or Cs. If this is going to be a debate can I hear any other reason he's the "most versatile PG in the league" besides "the Celtics put him on Lebron occasionally"?

What more do you want? Rondo's athleticism and his uncharacteristic length makes him a versatile defender at PG. Not to mention that he's not a bad defender..

LeBron was an example being that he's tall and the best in the league. Rondo matched up against bigger players more times than occasionally, mainly 3's.

Rondo versatile enabled an undersized Bradley to start at the 2...Bradley had on ball duties on the perimeter and you'd see Rondo either guard the 1, 2 or 3. You'd even see him down in the post sometimes taking on that challenge which most of the time end up as a turnover with him knocking the ball loose.

[wwharton]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I didn't mean he can shut down a LeBron one on one, I just think he is very versatile on defense, maybe not more than any PG in the league but more than most the guys listed as PGs on these top 5 lists.. And that may very well be because of his team and their defense.. but if he's so good at defense because of his team and as some people said only effective on offense because of his team, maybe he fits into a team concept better than any PG in the legue.. Isn't that what a PG is supposed to do?

I don't think he's more versatile than other PGs being listed is pretty much all I'm saying. More versatile than Paul, sure. But I think Williams or Rose can comfortably guard PGs or SGs across the board. Nash's place on some lists is about his offensive being great enough to overlook lacking defense so obviously we're not talking about him.

What more do you want? Rondo's athleticism and his uncharacteristic length makes him a versatile defender at PG. Not to mention that he's not a bad defender..

LeBron was an example being that he's tall and the best in the league. Rondo matched up against bigger players more times than occasionally, mainly 3's.

Rondo versatile enabled an undersized Bradley to start at the 2...Bradley had on ball duties on the perimeter and you'd see Rondo either guard the 1, 2 or 3. You'd even see him down in the post sometimes taking on that challenge which most of the time end up as a turnover with him knocking the ball loose.

In today's NBA there are plenty of undersized SGs playing next to bigger PGs. Maybe you don't see a difference between "not versatile" which I didn't say, and "not the most versatile PG in the NBA". I don't think he's "the most versatile PG in the NBA"... or even among the handful we're talking about. He's among them but I don't think he gets an edge over anyone in versatility (besides Paul as I just mentioned, or Nash who he already has an edge over in all areas of defense). Or maybe you just feel the need to defend any and everything said about Rondo. I tried to explain the difference between guarding one on one and a team defensive strategy that may have a PG on a SF occasionally. I don't know what else to tell YOU, lol. This comment really wasn't a big deal. OJ finally responded since he was who I was replying to to begin with.

[Jukeman]

I don't think he's more versatile than other PGs being listed is pretty much all I'm saying. More versatile than Paul, sure. But I think Williams or Rose can comfortably guard PGs or SGs across the board. Nash's place on some lists is about his offensive being great enough to overlook lacking defense so obviously we're not talking about him.



In today's NBA there are plenty of undersized SGs playing next to bigger PGs. Maybe you don't see a difference between "not versatile" which I didn't say, and "not the most versatile PG in the NBA". I don't think he's "the most versatile PG in the NBA"... or even among the handful we're talking about. He's among them but I don't think he gets an edge over anyone in versatility (besides Paul as I just mentioned, or Nash who he already has an edge over in all areas of defense). Or maybe you just feel the need to defend any and everything said about Rondo. I tried to explain the difference between guarding one on one and a team defensive strategy that may have a PG on a SF occasionally. I don't know what else to tell YOU, lol. This comment really wasn't a big deal. OJ finally responded since he was who I was replying to to begin with.

Nah, I just think you like to defend against everything Rondo, its pretty obvious now. I dont know if its your way of cooling down the hype but its something because I notice every time you respond to anything Rondo, the main topic has to be about being the best lol.

When did I ever say he was the most versatile PG in the league? Even the OP corrected himself, and I already said that saying "unmatched" is a stretch..

I simply agreed with him on Rondo being vesatile and tried to put things into perspective after you once again deflected something positive about Rondo lol not to mention you are not giving him any credit for the C's playoff run but instead says it was KG and the C's great defense.

So yea, I am going to continue to respone to mislead post like I did originally with the "Only effective"

And we are not talking about X's and O's we are talking about what actually happens on the court, you keep saying there are PG's who "can" do the same (and saying it like as if any PG can do it like its common) yet they arent doing it anywhere as often as Rondo or even being assigned, but of course you will credit that to only the C's defense and ignore why a PG like Rondo enables them to do it in the first place.

But whatever, agree to disagree.

[wwharton]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Nah, I just think you like to defend against everything Rondo, its pretty obvious now. I dont know if its your way of cooling down the hype but its something because I notice every time you respond to anything Rondo, the main topic has to be about being the best lol.

When did I ever say he was the most versatile PG in the league? Even the OP corrected himself, and I already said that saying "unmatched" is a stretch..

I simply agreed with him on Rondo being vesatile and tried to put things into perspective after you once again deflected something positive about Rondo lol not to mention you are not giving him any credit for the C's playoff run but instead says it was KG and the C's great defense.

So yea, I am going to continue to respone to mislead post like I did originally with the "Only effective"

And we are not talking about X's and O's we are talking about what actually happens on the court, you keep saying there are PG's who "can" do the same (and saying it like as if any PG can do it like its common) yet they arent doing it anywhere as often as Rondo or even being assigned, but of course you will credit that to only the C's defense and ignore why a PG like Rondo enables them to do it in the first place.

But whatever, agree to disagree.

Actually what's clear is you're overly sensitive when it comes to Rondo. Nobody said YOU said he was the most versatile player. I wasn't even talking to you. OJ made a post, I replied and then you jumped in.

And I post the same way about everybody. You just REALLY get riled up when it's about Rondo. And it's not like I have a problem with Rondo, I just bring out certain points that I disagree with... which you seem to then stretch to the extreme.

Like I said, OJ responded... I replied to that. Doesn't seem like a big deal, I guess we'll see if he has anything to say about my reply. You're the only one that has an issue with anything I say about Rondo or any other player.

BTW, why even bring up "only effective"? I agreed with you on that and admitted that based on that part of the OP, I understood what you were saying. You take this stuff way too personally.

[Jukeman]

Actually what's clear is you're overly sensitive when it comes to Rondo. Nobody said YOU said he was the most versatile player. I wasn't even talking to you. OJ made a post, I replied and then you jumped in.

And I post the same way about everybody. You just REALLY get riled up when it's about Rondo. And it's not like I have a problem with Rondo, I just bring out certain points that I disagree with... which you seem to then stretch to the extreme.

Like I said, OJ responded... I replied to that. Doesn't seem like a big deal, I guess we'll see if he has anything to say about my reply. You're the only one that has an issue with anything I say about Rondo or any other player.

BTW, why even bring up "only effective"? I agreed with you on that and admitted that based on that part of the OP, I understood what you were saying. You take this stuff way too personally.

LoL you must dont see non of my post outside of a Rondo topic, I put everything into perspective when I comment in threads..

at throwing out the sensitive card..

I didnt complain that I wasnt talking to you (its a forum lol) when I responded to iLLosophy and you tried to turn this into another topic about Rondo not being the best...

But yea...

When you responded to OJ, you simply said "I dont know what versatilty you're talking about" I simply replied with an opinion of what he may have been refering to and gave an example of how Rondo was versatile in the C's defense.

But again you tried to turn it into "Rondo is not the best"

But anyway, you can always hit the ignore button if you have a problem with me being "sensitive" about Rondo

[wwharton]

Re: Top 5 at each position

LoL you must dont see non of my post outside of a Rondo topic, I put everything into perspective when I comment in threads..

at throwing out the sensitive card..

I didnt complain that I wasnt talking to you (its a forum lol) when I responded to iLLosophy and you tried to turn this into another topic about Rondo not being the best...

But yea...

When you responded to OJ, you simply said "I dont know what versatilty you're talking about" I simply replied with an opinion of what he may have been refering to and gave an example of how Rondo was versatile in the C's defense.

But again you tried to turn it into "Rondo is not the best"

But anyway, you can always hit the ignore button if you have a problem with me being "sensitive" about Rondo

Jukeman, I'm not throwing out any "cards" and DEFINITELY don't have a problem with you at all. There's that internet and tone thing clearly coming into play here, but we're just discussing. I will say that at least with these two instances I highlight one thing I disagree with and why, and it gets stretched out into a long side track bc it's a negative about your boy.

I really don't have a problem with it, bc it's not like you're just throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks or calling me a ***** for saying something bad. We can discuss these things, but I don't know why the comment would bother you so much.

For the record (going back and reviewing to see how we got here just like I did before), here's exactly what I responded to.

Plus his versatility on defense is unmatched by any other PG in the league.

Similar to before you responding to "only effective". If your issue is with saying Rondo isn't versatile then you're arguing a different topic. He's versatile... I don't think his versatility is unmatched by any other PG in the league. And that's exactly what I was discussing. At the same time, "I wasn't talking to you" was in response to you saying you never said he was the most versatile. You didn't... but somebody did, and that's who I was talking to.

And I see all of your posts, got no problem with any of them. Maybe you should ignore me?

[iLLosophy]

Re: Top 5 at each position

But Rondo has great court vision and awareness of how to set up players.

He does. So do a at least a dozen other PG/SG/SF's. Rondo's skill in this area isn't something you get huge acclaim for when Andre Miller has been doing that for years and you can sign him to your team for like $25 bucks. This a relatively easily replaceable skill. And again, when you have 3 future hall of famers on your team, you can replace Rondo with Mike Conley and he would be top 5 in the league in assists. Finally, he's played with this same group of guys for the last 4 years. He has the benefit of knowing the habits of all his players, and how they are going to respond to situations (non-transferable skill).

He attacks the boards on both ends of the floor

We need to set the record straight about Rondo's rebounding.

This is a Rajon Rondo rebound (rondo is the one running into the middle of the other 3):



He's not boxing anybody out. There is one player on the opposite team in sight and he is running back on defense. He's not fighting for position - oh wait, that's incorrect, he is fighting for position - with his teammates. This rebound was going to the Celtics no matter what yet Rondo comes running in to try to snatch it....from his teammates. Rondo could've been running down the court pushing tempo, but instead he's stealing a rebound....from his teammates. Do you realize how crazy this is....not just as a teammate but, but as point guard?

Anyway, despite Rondo stealing rebounds from teammates, overall Rondo's rebounding is not a skill. It's opportunity. Other point guards don't have this opportunity because either they or their coach feel they benefit the team better by getting back down court (long rebounds being the exception).

For whatever reason the Celtics don't want Rondo pushing tempo. Maybe KG is so slow that he lets rondo grab the "gimme" rebounds so it allows him more time to setup (FYI - he's not in that picture because he's on his way down the court).

Maybe it's because the Celtics are one of the worst rebounding teams in the league, and they need all the help they can get.

Why Rondo/Doc Rivers value going after rebounds versus pushing tempo, I don't know.

But let's stop portraying Rondo like he's the Bill Russell of Point Guards. If all point guards were told to go for boards instead of getting back down court, the # of triple-doubles in 2011-2012 would at least quadruple in number.

Once again, like i said before, he is the default benefactor of the situation he's in. There is a difference between opportunity and skill. Derrick Rose doesn't have the opportunities Rondo has. Unless it's a long rebound, Derrick Rose isn't running towards the ball, he's running away from it because the ball will be passed to him. And he's not fighting for offensive boards because he knows he has to get back down the court and get back on defense

[DukeC]

Re: Top 5 at each position

He does. So do a at least a dozen other PG/SG/SF's. Rondo's skill in this area isn't something you get huge acclaim for when Andre Miller has been doing that for years and you can sign him to your team for like $25 bucks. This a relatively easily replaceable skill. And again, when you have 3 future hall of famers on your team, you can replace Rondo with Mike Conley and he would be top 5 in the league in assists. Finally, he's played with this same group of guys for the last 4 years. He has the benefit of knowing the habits of all his players, and how they are going to respond to situations (non-transferable skill).




We need to set the record straight about Rondo's rebounding.

This is a Rajon Rondo rebound (rondo is the one running into the middle of the other 3):



He's not boxing anybody out. There is one player on the opposite team in sight and he is running back on defense. He's not fighting for position - oh wait, that's incorrect, he is fighting for position - with his teammates. This rebound was going to the Celtics no matter what yet Rondo comes running in to try to snatch it....from his teammates. Rondo could've been running down the court pushing tempo, but instead he's stealing a rebound....from his teammates. Do you realize how crazy this is....not just as a teammate but, but as point guard?

Anyway, despite Rondo stealing rebounds from teammates, overall Rondo's rebounding is not a skill. It's opportunity. Other point guards don't have this opportunity because either they or their coach feel they benefit the team better by getting back down court (long rebounds being the exception).

For whatever reason the Celtics don't want Rondo pushing tempo. Maybe KG is so slow that he lets rondo grab the "gimme" rebounds so it allows him more time to setup (FYI - he's not in that picture because he's on his way down the court).

Maybe it's because the Celtics are one of the worst rebounding teams in the league, and they need all the help they can get.

Why Rondo/Doc Rivers value going after rebounds versus pushing tempo, I don't know.

But let's stop portraying Rondo like he's the Bill Russell of Point Guards. If all point guards were told to go for boards instead of getting back down court, the # of triple-doubles in 2011-2012 would at least quadruple in number.

Once again, like i said before, he is the default benefactor of the situation he's in. There is a difference between opportunity and skill. Derrick Rose doesn't have the opportunities Rondo has. Unless it's a long rebound, Derrick Rose isn't running towards the ball, he's running away from it because the ball will be passed to him. And he's not fighting for offensive boards because he knows he has to get back down the court and get back on defense

1st Bolded: Cool. So you think half the league is Steve Nash and Rondo? LOL @You.

2nd Bolded: SHAME ON YOU FOR THAT NONSENSE. I bet you weren't holding it against Steve Nash when he was playing with Amare and a whole team full of 3pt shooters? Would you hold it against Magic Johnson when he was playing with the Showtime Lakers? Or John Stockton? LOL @You trying to make an argument from that.

3rd bolded: Sure, he steals rebounds at times. And?

4th Bolded: LOLWUT? Okey Doke. Penalize Rondo for his amazing ball sense. That makes sense.

5th Bolded: You don't watch a lot of Celtic games do you? There is a reason why Rondo is known for being a one man fast break, and that is because he goes and gets the rebound himself.

5th Bolded: There is a reason why other PG's aren't able to do it on a consistent basis. Where was all this when Jason Kidd was putting up Triple Doubles?

6th Bolded: And? Like other PG's haven't landed in great situations *CoughMagicJohnsonCough*

[wwharton]

Re: Top 5 at each position

He does. So do a at least a dozen other PG/SG/SF's. Rondo's skill in this area isn't something you get huge acclaim for when Andre Miller has been doing that for years and you can sign him to your team for like $25 bucks. This a relatively easily replaceable skill. And again, when you have 3 future hall of famers on your team, you can replace Rondo with Mike Conley and he would be top 5 in the league in assists. Finally, he's played with this same group of guys for the last 4 years. He has the benefit of knowing the habits of all his players, and how they are going to respond to situations (non-transferable skill).




We need to set the record straight about Rondo's rebounding.

This is a Rajon Rondo rebound (rondo is the one running into the middle of the other 3):



He's not boxing anybody out. There is one player on the opposite team in sight and he is running back on defense. He's not fighting for position - oh wait, that's incorrect, he is fighting for position - with his teammates. This rebound was going to the Celtics no matter what yet Rondo comes running in to try to snatch it....from his teammates. Rondo could've been running down the court pushing tempo, but instead he's stealing a rebound....from his teammates. Do you realize how crazy this is....not just as a teammate but, but as point guard?

Anyway, despite Rondo stealing rebounds from teammates, overall Rondo's rebounding is not a skill. It's opportunity. Other point guards don't have this opportunity because either they or their coach feel they benefit the team better by getting back down court (long rebounds being the exception).

For whatever reason the Celtics don't want Rondo pushing tempo. Maybe KG is so slow that he lets rondo grab the "gimme" rebounds so it allows him more time to setup (FYI - he's not in that picture because he's on his way down the court).

Maybe it's because the Celtics are one of the worst rebounding teams in the league, and they need all the help they can get.

Why Rondo/Doc Rivers value going after rebounds versus pushing tempo, I don't know.

But let's stop portraying Rondo like he's the Bill Russell of Point Guards. If all point guards were told to go for boards instead of getting back down court, the # of triple-doubles in 2011-2012 would at least quadruple in number.

Once again, like i said before, he is the default benefactor of the situation he's in. There is a difference between opportunity and skill. Derrick Rose doesn't have the opportunities Rondo has. Unless it's a long rebound, Derrick Rose isn't running towards the ball, he's running away from it because the ball will be passed to him. And he's not fighting for offensive boards because he knows he has to get back down the court and get back on defense

I'm almost glad you posted this so I don't seem like the huge Rondo ***** I've painted myself to be recently, lol.

Andre Miller is a fine player. He would have been a good fit on the Celtics championship team. He still doesn't set up players at the level of Rondo. You're right that most PGs on the NBA level should be able to do this, but there's still a hierarchy of skill and Rondo is definitely among the best. Can't knock him for that.

As for the rebounding, I just have to laugh at that one. Yes, that pic is an example of where he should've just fell back and gotten the outlet. And yes, you can probably find some others like that with him. But I've also watched him keep offensive sets alive by crashing the boards hard. He could be better at boxing out but I think that may be true with every guard in the NBA, lol. Rebounding is a lot about effort and heart so I'm sure Rose and others could go after it and be at the same level (people do seem to forget that Chris Paul averages about the same number of rebounds as Rondo), but if they don't it's not bc they're being held back by the coach or system. They just don't want it as much. I don't see how you can knock him for that either. Second chance points are a big indicator of why a team may win/lose a close game. If an opponent got a ton of 2nd chance points bc only 4 guys are crashing the boards and the PG is "running away from the ball" then that's not a good look by the PG.