The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

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  • BringTheHeat
    MVP
    • Jan 2012
    • 2264

    #1

    The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

    The 50 Greatest Players in NBA History were selected in 1996 by a panel of media; former players and coaches; current and former general managers; and team executives.

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    Now my question to you guys; Is this list still the current list? Where do these players rank? Who do you drop out, if anyone, to put these players in? ( Or any other player you feel was left out/should be included)

    Dirk Nowitzki
    Tim Duncan
    Jason Kidd
    Kobe Bryant
    Steve Nash
    Dennis Rodman
    Kevin Garnett
    Ray Allen
    Reggie Miller
    Gary Payton
    Paul Pierce
    Dwyane Wade
    LeBron James
    Last edited by BringTheHeat; 09-17-2012, 09:37 PM.
    "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"
  • ojandpizza
    Hall Of Fame
    • Apr 2011
    • 29807

    #2
    Duncan and Kobe HAVE to be in.. All of those you could make arguments for but those 2 are at the very top of the list for their positions ever.. James will be in for sure in due time, but if they were to revise the list tomorrow I'd say Kobe and Duncan get in without a doubt

    Comment

    • ProfessaPackMan
      Bamma
      • Mar 2008
      • 63852

      #3
      Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

      I wouldn't take anyone out but instead add 25 more names to it and then you'd have your 75 Greatest Players(NFL did this when they celebrated 75 years).

      Plus I'm not even sure if you can find 50 players that are in the league right now that deserve to be mentioned with the other 50 players currently in there.
      #RespectTheCulture

      Comment

      • BringTheHeat
        MVP
        • Jan 2012
        • 2264

        #4
        Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

        Originally posted by ProfessaPackMan
        I wouldn't take anyone out but instead add 25 more names to it and then you'd have your 75 Greatest Players(NFL did this when they celebrated 75 years).

        Plus I'm not even sure if you can find 50 players that are in the league right now that deserve to be mentioned with the other 50 players currently in there.
        No doubt, only about 10 current players even deserve to be in the discussion of top 50.

        But let's say you can't add 25, you can only take off and add in. Which of the players listed, if any, make your top 50?
        "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

        Comment

        • Dice
          Sitting by the door
          • Jul 2002
          • 6627

          #5
          Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

          Of today's players, the guys who definitely would be in the top-50 of all time would be Kobe, Duncan and LeBron.

          Of the guys who I'd replace off the list for these guys. I'd replace Bill Sharman with Kobe. Robert Parish with Duncan. And Billy Cunningham with LeBron.
          I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

          Comment

          • AlexBrady
            MVP
            • Jul 2008
            • 3341

            #6
            Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

            Originally posted by Dice
            Of today's players, the guys who definitely would be in the top-50 of all time would be Kobe, Duncan and LeBron.

            Of the guys who I'd replace off the list for these guys. I'd replace Bill Sharman with Kobe. Robert Parish with Duncan. And Billy Cunningham with LeBron.
            Bill Sharman was one of the greatest two way guards in history. He moved exceptionally well off the ball, had a tricky handle, and played relentless defense. Above all, Bill could shoot. A big time clutch shooter.

            Robert Parish? Talented, but he underperformed in the clutch. He is not top 50 material.
            But Billy Cunningham was a true great. Explosive hops, hit the boards, and always came up big in the clutch.

            Who doesn't belong? Dave Bing, Nate Archibald, Pete Maravich, George Gervin, Paul Arizin, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, and Parish. These guys were not well-rounded and didn't have that 'special something' to push them over the top.

            Among the moderns, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Jason Kidd, Dwyane Wade, Paul Pierce, and LeBron James belong in the 50.

            Righteous picks from the older crop would be Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Gus Johnson, Dennis Johnson and Dennis Rodman.

            Comment

            • TUSS11
              MVP
              • Nov 2007
              • 1483

              #7
              Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

              Allen Iverson. And I stand by that.

              Comment

              • ojandpizza
                Hall Of Fame
                • Apr 2011
                • 29807

                #8
                Originally posted by AlexBrady
                Bill Sharman was one of the greatest two way guards in history. He moved exceptionally well off the ball, had a tricky handle, and played relentless defense. Above all, Bill could shoot. A big time clutch shooter.

                Robert Parish? Talented, but he underperformed in the clutch. He is not top 50 material.
                But Billy Cunningham was a true great. Explosive hops, hit the boards, and always came up big in the clutch.

                Who doesn't belong? Dave Bing, Nate Archibald, Pete Maravich, George Gervin, Paul Arizin, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, and Parish. These guys were not well-rounded and didn't have that 'special something' to push them over the top.

                Among the moderns, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Jason Kidd, Dwyane Wade, Paul Pierce, and LeBron James belong in the 50.

                Righteous picks from the older crop would be Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Gus Johnson, Dennis Johnson and Dennis Rodman.

                Shaq is already in. He was the youngest player selected when they made the list

                Also it looks like from the majority of your list you're tossing players who didn't win a ring? I can respect that but I feel there is NO WAY Moses, Baylor, and Elvin Hayes don't make it in..

                And while Barkley and Malone don't have rings they do have MVPs, half the guys on the list didn't even win an MVP award.. Not to mention Malone is second on the all time points list..

                I would want Maravich in but that's just because I love his game and I'm biased lol I don't have any reason to back that choice other than I just like him..

                I think Moncrief not originally making it Is ridiculous in the first place.. Dumars is a stretch.. The other older guys you mentioned I can live with them not being on the list..

                I said before Duncan and Bryant definitely need in now.. I think we could wait to add James and Wade until closer to the ends of their careers.. Shaq was already in like I said and I think Kidd and Pierce are a bit of a stretch..

                Comment

                • ojandpizza
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 29807

                  #9
                  I think with Ewing it's a toss up.. I feel bad for him, no ring, no MVP, always had sensational numbers though. Played both ends very well. Came close a few times.. Had a good inside game and deadly midrange game.

                  I can see why AlexBrady would take him out, but I could also see the other side of why somebody would keep him in.

                  Comment

                  • Streaky McFloorburn
                    Rookie
                    • Aug 2012
                    • 279

                    #10
                    Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

                    Originally posted by ojandpizza
                    Shaq is already in. He was the youngest player selected when they made the list

                    Also it looks like from the majority of your list you're tossing players who didn't win a ring? I can respect that but I feel there is NO WAY Moses, Baylor, and Elvin Hayes don't make it in..

                    And while Barkley and Malone don't have rings they do have MVPs, half the guys on the list didn't even win an MVP award.. Not to mention Malone is second on the all time points list..

                    I would want Maravich in but that's just because I love his game and I'm biased lol I don't have any reason to back that choice other than I just like him..

                    I think Moncrief not originally making it Is ridiculous in the first place.. Dumars is a stretch.. The other older guys you mentioned I can live with them not being on the list..

                    I said before Duncan and Bryant definitely need in now.. I think we could wait to add James and Wade until closer to the ends of their careers.. Shaq was already in like I said and I think Kidd and Pierce are a bit of a stretch..
                    I would love to know on what basis he'd toss those guys as well, but especially the first 2.

                    Moses Malone: 3x MVP, Finals MVP on a team that ran through every opponent they faced in the playoffs, averaged nearly 25 PPG and 18 RPG when it had been five years since anyone averaged 17+, and no one would do it again until Rodman 13 years later.

                    Baylor: 10x All-Star, one of only 5 players to score more than 70 in a game, had more than 60 3x. Also a dominant rebounder, had back-to-back seasons of 35 & 20, 38 & 19. Widely considered the prototype for the modern athletic wing player.
                    "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism, by those who don't have it." - George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment

                    • ojandpizza
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 29807

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Streaky McFloorburn
                      I would love to know on what basis he'd toss those guys as well, but especially the first 2.

                      Moses Malone: 3x MVP, Finals MVP on a team that ran through every opponent they faced in the playoffs, averaged nearly 25 PPG and 18 RPG when it had been five years since anyone averaged 17+, and no one would do it again until Rodman 13 years later.

                      Baylor: 10x All-Star, one of only 5 players to score more than 70 in a game, had more than 60 3x. Also a dominant rebounder, had back-to-back seasons of 35 & 20, 38 & 19. Widely considered the prototype for the modern athletic wing player.
                      If I had a list of the top 10 most underrated players Baylor, Hayes, and Moses would all be on it.. Hell they might all even make my top 5!

                      Comment

                      • AlexBrady
                        MVP
                        • Jul 2008
                        • 3341

                        #12
                        Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

                        Originally posted by ojandpizza
                        Shaq is already in. He was the youngest player selected when they made the list

                        Also it looks like from the majority of your list you're tossing players who didn't win a ring? I can respect that but I feel there is NO WAY Moses, Baylor, and Elvin Hayes don't make it in..

                        And while Barkley and Malone don't have rings they do have MVPs, half the guys on the list didn't even win an MVP award.. Not to mention Malone is second on the all time points list..

                        I would want Maravich in but that's just because I love his game and I'm biased lol I don't have any reason to back that choice other than I just like him..

                        I think Moncrief not originally making it Is ridiculous in the first place.. Dumars is a stretch.. The other older guys you mentioned I can live with them not being on the list..

                        I said before Duncan and Bryant definitely need in now.. I think we could wait to add James and Wade until closer to the ends of their careers.. Shaq was already in like I said and I think Kidd and Pierce are a bit of a stretch..
                        Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, and Elvin Hayes never played defense. They loafed around with their hands in their pockets on that end. None of them were especially team-oriented. Hayes and Malone commited an unacceptable number of turnovers.

                        Barkley was another guy who didn't play defense and harmonize with his teammates. Poor character. Karl Malone was a good player, nothing more. Too many inept clutch time performances.

                        The regular season MVP award is meaningless, its a numbers award. The only MVP that means anything is Finals MVP.


                        Originally posted by Streaky McFloorburn
                        I would love to know on what basis he'd toss those guys as well, but especially the first 2.

                        Moses Malone: 3x MVP, Finals MVP on a team that ran through every opponent they faced in the playoffs, averaged nearly 25 PPG and 18 RPG when it had been five years since anyone averaged 17+, and no one would do it again until Rodman 13 years later.

                        Baylor: 10x All-Star, one of only 5 players to score more than 70 in a game, had more than 60 3x. Also a dominant rebounder, had back-to-back seasons of 35 & 20, 38 & 19. Widely considered the prototype for the modern athletic wing player.
                        Malone was a monster on the boards, especially on the offensive end (putbacks were easy points). Unfortunately, Malone's turnovers combined with his poor defense usually made his production a wash. Meaning, if he scored 25 points, he directly cost his team 25 points.

                        Its the same story with Baylor. A creative, hang in the air scorer. A beast on the boards. His defense was truly awful. He wouldn't get into a stance, fight around screens, or toss his hand up at shots. If Baylor scored 30 points, then he usually gave up 30. Making his production of little help.

                        Comment

                        • Streaky McFloorburn
                          Rookie
                          • Aug 2012
                          • 279

                          #13
                          Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

                          Originally posted by AlexBrady
                          Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, and Elvin Hayes never played defense. They loafed around with their hands in their pockets on that end. None of them were especially team-oriented. Hayes and Malone commited an unacceptable number of turnovers.

                          Barkley was another guy who didn't play defense and harmonize with his teammates. Poor character. Karl Malone was a good player, nothing more. Too many inept clutch time performances.

                          The regular season MVP award is meaningless, its a numbers award. The only MVP that means anything is Finals MVP.




                          Malone was a monster on the boards, especially on the offensive end (putbacks were easy points). Unfortunately, Malone's turnovers combined with his poor defense usually made his production a wash. Meaning, if he scored 25 points, he directly cost his team 25 points.

                          Its the same story with Baylor. A creative, hang in the air scorer. A beast on the boards. His defense was truly awful. He wouldn't get into a stance, fight around screens, or toss his hand up at shots. If Baylor scored 30 points, then he usually gave up 30. Making his production of little help.
                          I'm not sure where you are getting your information. From 78-79 through 84-85 Moses Malone either led or was among the top 3 players on his team in DRtg (points allowed per 100 possessions). He never once had a margin of less than +10 between ORtg and Drtg during that stretch. In the 76ers championship year, he led the team in DRtg and had a +19 margin.

                          His turnovers were between 3.4 and 4.0 in those years, which sometimes was worst on the team, but if you dig a little further, you'd see that it's a bit misleading given his high USG, as TOV% shows him to be consistently among the best on his team at taking care of the ball. Again, in the Sixers championship season, he actually had the lowest TOV% on the team.

                          There is no evidence whatsoever for him being anything other than a defensive standout who had a huge net positive effect on his teams' production when he was in the game. His reputation also doesn't fit your story, as he was known as an intimidator on both ends of the floor.

                          At this point I'm not even sure we're even talking about the same person.


                          As for Baylor, I can't refute your claims because there are no advanced stats from his era to prove or disprove them.

                          Because of that there is also no way that you should be so sure of it either. You can't possibly have seen enough footage of his games to draw the conclusions you did. So again, I must ask, where are you getting your information? Are you over the age of 60? Is there some retired NBA rebel going around telling supposed truth about the legends that built the league?
                          Isn't it a bit odd for you to accept (or expect us to accept) anecdotal evidence that his production was basically a wash, considering his teams made the playoffs every year he played without exception, and were in the Finals 8 times with him as a star player? If he was really such a liability, why wouldn't the Lakers have traded him for some good defensive player(s)? It's not as if they didn't have plenty of other scorers.
                          Just because they didn't win a championship with a prime Baylor doesn't mean we can automatically assume he didn't give any effort on the defensive end.

                          You do realize that the player you are essentially calling lazy was an Army reservist during his NBA career and was on active duty during the 61-62 season, meaning he could only play games on a weekend pass? Does that sound like someone who wouldn't play hard or was only out for the glamour stats? How would he possibly have been such a good rebounder if he really played with such little effort in the situations you described? If he wouldn't fight around a screen or put his hands up to contest a shot, why would he fight around a boxout or put his hands up to grab a missed shot? Does that fit with any other good rebounder you're aware of?

                          Could you at least please post a link, or something, to prove these tales of defensive woefulness?
                          "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism, by those who don't have it." - George Bernard Shaw

                          Comment

                          • AlexBrady
                            MVP
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 3341

                            #14
                            Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

                            Originally posted by Streaky McFloorburn
                            I'm not sure where you are getting your information. From 78-79 through 84-85 Moses Malone either led or was among the top 3 players on his team in DRtg (points allowed per 100 possessions). He never once had a margin of less than +10 between ORtg and Drtg during that stretch. In the 76ers championship year, he led the team in DRtg and had a +19 margin.

                            His turnovers were between 3.4 and 4.0 in those years, which sometimes was worst on the team, but if you dig a little further, you'd see that it's a bit misleading given his high USG, as TOV% shows him to be consistently among the best on his team at taking care of the ball. Again, in the Sixers championship season, he actually had the lowest TOV% on the team.

                            There is no evidence whatsoever for him being anything other than a defensive standout who had a huge net positive effect on his teams' production when he was in the game. His reputation also doesn't fit your story, as he was known as an intimidator on both ends of the floor.

                            At this point I'm not even sure we're even talking about the same person.


                            As for Baylor, I can't refute your claims because there are no advanced stats from his era to prove or disprove them.

                            Because of that there is also no way that you should be so sure of it either. You can't possibly have seen enough footage of his games to draw the conclusions you did. So again, I must ask, where are you getting your information? Are you over the age of 60? Is there some retired NBA rebel going around telling supposed truth about the legends that built the league?
                            Isn't it a bit odd for you to accept (or expect us to accept) anecdotal evidence that his production was basically a wash, considering his teams made the playoffs every year he played without exception, and were in the Finals 8 times with him as a star player? If he was really such a liability, why wouldn't the Lakers have traded him for some good defensive player(s)? It's not as if they didn't have plenty of other scorers.
                            Just because they didn't win a championship with a prime Baylor doesn't mean we can automatically assume he didn't give any effort on the defensive end.

                            You do realize that the player you are essentially calling lazy was an Army reservist during his NBA career and was on active duty during the 61-62 season, meaning he could only play games on a weekend pass? Does that sound like someone who wouldn't play hard or was only out for the glamour stats? How would he possibly have been such a good rebounder if he really played with such little effort in the situations you described? If he wouldn't fight around a screen or put his hands up to contest a shot, why would he fight around a boxout or put his hands up to grab a missed shot? Does that fit with any other good rebounder you're aware of?

                            Could you at least please post a link, or something, to prove these tales of defensive woefulness?
                            Those percentage defensive stats are unreliable and cannot accurately measure what happens off the ball. Moses was easy to post, he didn't fight the poster for position. His rotations were routinely late. Didn't throw his hand at shots he had no chance of blocking. Finally, he didn't work as hard on the defensive glass as he did on the other end.

                            The amount of turnovers Moses had wasn't misleading at all. He was a poor passer with a patty cake handle. Outright double teamings of big men were prohibited back then, but defenders could dig down on his handle. Way too many turnovers against soft double downs. An intimidator? Only on the offensive end.

                            Advanced stats offer only a glimpse into the player. You need to watch the guy in a full ballgame (paying special attention to his off ball play). I would estimate that I saw Baylor on the tube two dozen times. I can't pretend that I saw a sound ballplayer on the defensive end. And playing defense back then wasn't complicated. You maintained good defensive posture in the one on one game, and fought through the occasional screen. Baylor played too upright and accepted screens too easily. Thats what I saw and I'm sticking to it.

                            Why was Baylor good on the boards? He was incredibly strong and an explosive leaper. In 1971, the Lakers forced Baylor into retirement because Sharman was apalled by his defense. Jim McMillian took Baylor's spot and the Lakers became one of the finest clubs in history.

                            Watch a full ballgame of Baylor for yourself:
                            Last edited by AlexBrady; 09-18-2012, 01:20 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Dice
                              Sitting by the door
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 6627

                              #15
                              Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

                              Originally posted by AlexBrady
                              Bill Sharman was one of the greatest two way guards in history. He moved exceptionally well off the ball, had a tricky handle, and played relentless defense. Above all, Bill could shoot. A big time clutch shooter.
                              I can say the same about Joe Dumars but I don't think he belongs in the top 50 players of all time.
                              I have more respect for a man who let's me know where he stands, even if he's wrong. Than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil. - Malcolm X

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