The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

[PrettyT11]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

I say without question Duncan, Kobe, and LeBron would be added. I don't really get the wait on LeBron for a while approach. I say if you deserve it no need to wait. If he never stepped foot on an NBA court again he would still be without question a HOF'er and top 50 player.

I would probably throw Kidd in there as well. There are a few guards that are on the list that I would take Kidd over.

I'm the guys who say why not just add guys and do a top 75 at 75 years instead of taking guys off. But if push comes to shove I could get rid of 4 guys to add these four in.

[ojandpizza]

I say without question Duncan, Kobe, and LeBron would be added. I don't really get the wait on LeBron for a while approach. I say if you deserve it no need to wait. If he never stepped foot on an NBA court again he would still be without question a HOF'er and top 50 player.

I would probably throw Kidd in there as well. There are a few guards that are on the list that I would take Kidd over.

I'm the guys who say why not just add guys and do a top 75 at 75 years instead of taking guys off. But if push comes to shove I could get rid of 4 guys to add these four in.

Yeah makes sense with what you say about LeBron, I could easily replace somebody for him now, almost anybody lol.. I think I was only saying to wait because he would still be around in a few years if we were to make changes again..

[chance]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

Bill Sharman was one of the greatest two way guards in history. He moved exceptionally well off the ball, had a tricky handle, and played relentless defense. Above all, Bill could shoot. A big time clutch shooter.

Robert Parish? Talented, but he underperformed in the clutch. He is not top 50 material.
But Billy Cunningham was a true great. Explosive hops, hit the boards, and always came up big in the clutch.

Who doesn't belong? Dave Bing, Nate Archibald, Pete Maravich, George Gervin, Paul Arizin, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, and Parish. These guys were not well-rounded and didn't have that 'special something' to push them over the top.

Among the moderns, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, Jason Kidd, Dwyane Wade, Paul Pierce, and LeBron James belong in the 50.

Righteous picks from the older crop would be Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Gus Johnson, Dennis Johnson and Dennis Rodman.

C'mon man

[AlexBrady]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

Style over substance? I think not. Games are won and lost off the ball. The tape irrefutably proved that Malone was passive and unproductive when the ball wasn't in his hands. So despite his 33 points, his game was less than meets the eye.

Carlos Boozer and Moses Malone are/were poor defenders and certainly hurt their team on that end. Both are/were slow laterally, unaware, and generally passive or disinterested. Keeping a body between the man and the basket does no good when the opponent is constantly getting clean shots. And how telling is it that Malone saved most of his energy for the sprint downhill?

Elgin Baylor in 1962: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGT77tpNqHs&feature=plcp

How do I rate the power forwards all time? Dave DeBusschere and Tim Duncan are at the top. Behind them are Kevin McHale, Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes, and Dennis Rodman. Centers who also excelled at power forward are Jerry Lucas, Wes Unseld, Willis Reed, and Nate Thurmond. All were better players than either Karl Malone or Charles Barkley.

On Bill Walton. Simply put, he excelled in every area of the game. An incredible passer, defender, and rebounder. His area of influence was remarkable and he always played big in the clutch. No holes in his game.

As for Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, Yao Ming, Ralph Sampson, and Penny Hardaway. All of them had too many glaring holes in their games.

Ewing, Barkley, and Malone were good players who needed too much time and space to do their damage. None of them were effective off the ball.

[ojandpizza]

You're giving so much love to players playing off ball, so why not any love for Reggie , Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton???

And Wes Unseld? Sure he was an acceptional outlet passer, but to say he didn't have holes in his game but some of those other guys did isn't fair.. The guy couldn't score, neither could Rodman.. I know scoring isn't the whole story, and in some cases is far less valuable than other areas.. Buuut what good are you doing being on the top 50 list of you couldn't play both ends of the court..?

I agree about your analysis of Walton. I just wanted to here a few opinions about him is the reason I brought him up

[AlexBrady]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

You're giving so much love to players playing off ball, so why not any love for Reggie , Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton???

And Wes Unseld? Sure he was an acceptional outlet passer, but to say he didn't have holes in his game but some of those other guys did isn't fair.. The guy couldn't score, neither could Rodman.. I know scoring isn't the whole story, and in some cases is far less valuable than other areas.. Buuut what good are you doing being on the top 50 list of you couldn't play both ends of the court..?

I agree about your analysis of Walton. I just wanted to here a few opinions about him is the reason I brought him up

Allen, Miller, and Hamilton. All good players and they ran precision routes off the ball. Quick and tricky finesse guards. Finesse marks a chump on defense though, and all were far below average on that end.

Unseld set some of the sturdiest screens of all time which were crucial in his team's precision patterns. On a pattern ballclub, a good screener is just as important as a good shooter. Big Wes never looked to post up, but he filled lanes, threw bullet outlets, boxed out, and generally ruled the ballgame.

The NBA's lifetime field goal percentage is a couple ticks below 50%, which means that the defense prevails more than the offense does. Of the two ends of the court, defense is more important.

[ojandpizza]

Allen, Miller, and Hamilton. All good players and they ran precision routes off the ball. Quick and tricky finesse guards. Finesse marks a chump on defense though, and all were far below average on that end.

Unseld set some of the sturdiest screens of all time which were crucial in his team's precision patterns. On a pattern ballclub, a good screener is just as important as a good shooter. Big Wes never looked to post up, but he filled lanes, threw bullet outlets, boxed out, and generally ruled the ballgame.

The NBA's lifetimes field goal percentage is a couple ticks below 50%, which means that the defense prevails more than the offense does. Of the two ends of the court, defense is more important.

I guess we just disagree on a few players.. It happens lol.. That footage of the Lakers and Celtics game is amazing though, I wish there was more of that quality footage from back then around for us to watch..

I've always said this West&Jones = underrated!

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

Style over substance? I think not. Games are won and lost off the ball. The tape irrefutably proved that Malone was passive and unproductive when the ball wasn't in his hands. So despite his 33 points, his game was less than meets the eye.

Carlos Boozer and Moses Malone are/were poor defenders and certainly hurt their team on that end. Both are/were slow laterally, unaware, and generally passive or disinterested. Keeping a body between the man and the basket does no good when the opponent is constantly getting clean shots. And how telling is it that Malone saved most of his energy for the sprint downhill?

Elgin Baylor in 1962: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGT77tpNqHs&feature=plcp

How do I rate the power forwards all time? Dave DeBusschere and Tim Duncan are at the top. Behind them are Kevin McHale, Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes, and Dennis Rodman. Centers who also excelled at power forward are Jerry Lucas, Wes Unseld, Willis Reed, and Nate Thurmond. All were better players than either Karl Malone or Charles Barkley.

On Bill Walton. Simply put, he excelled in every area of the game. An incredible passer, defender, and rebounder. His area of influence was remarkable and he always played big in the clutch. No holes in his game.

As for Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, Yao Ming, Ralph Sampson, and Penny Hardaway. All of them had too many glaring holes in their games.

Ewing, Barkley, and Malone were good players who needed too much time and space to do their damage. None of them were effective off the ball.

I appreciate you posting the game footage, but it doesn't even show much of what Baylor was known for, let alone the things you claim about him.

He does play with a lot of energy, you see him crashing the boards aggressively whenever he's close to the miss, sprinting in from off-camera once, and on another occasion fighting for a rebound all the way from the hoop out to the modern 3pt line.
He's guarding Satch Sanders most of the game, who wasn't much of a scoring threat, but he does jump to contest the one shot we see taken in his area, plus one pass thrown over the top of him. We never get to see how he handles a screen. He certainly isn't giving less than full effort.

On offense, he looks like a point forward in the first part of the video. He appears to be a willing and very skilled passer, with 3 assists early in the footage.
You wouldn't know much about his scoring ability from this, if not for the announcer telling us he has 29 and later 31 after one of only a few baskets we actually see him score.
I only counted 10 points from him in the video, and while his jumpshot looks mediocre at best, he shows a soft touch around the basket.

He does have the ball stripped from him once in transition, but the rest of the time he is a more than competent ballhandler, keeping it low in traffic and protecting the ball well with his body.

When he's off the ball, he's mostly off camera, though I'll gladly admit that he doesn't seem to set particularly effective screens. We also see his man holding him a lot, which tells you that the Celtics put a strong emphasis on denying him the ball.

Overall, he looks like a team first player who plays pretty hard, seems to have an "extra gear" at times, that no one else in this particular game displays. Only he and Jerry West make an impression at all for the Lakers. The Celtics look like a much better squad even though the score is close.

There is something (old-fashioned?) about the way Baylor plays though. I can almost see taking West, Russell and Cousy straight out of that game, dropping them in the modern NBA, and seeing them play well, due to their standout proficiency at their specialties. Baylor doesn't give me that same gut feeling because he does a lot well, but no one thing particularly well.


I really like the way Bill Russell shoots free throws

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

Watching a full ballgame reveals tendencies and shines a light on what a guy is doing when he doesn't have the ball. One ballgame does not make a player but it provides strong evidence. The whys and wherefores are important when I'm evaluating a ballplayer.

In the crucial game seven I presented, here is what happened: On plays where Elgin was the most important defender, shooters went 5-12. At first glance that looks like a good game, but Elgin aggressively contested only 2 of the 17 shots taken against him. His transition defense was lazy, he got nailed on marginal screens and had great difficulty defending off ball cutters and fanners. This performance lines up with my other two dozen seperate looks at him.

The correct technique is to challenge aggressively (keeping one foot on the floor), then turn and connect on a hearty boxout. The great defensive centers like Thurmond and Russell mastered the technique.

Full ballgame of Moses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m-r8whBZPc

This performance demonstrates all that was right and wrong with his game. Scored 33 points, mostly on determined power moves. About 30 touches, made 7 passes. Turnovers? 5 of them, coming on rather soft double downs. Did he set any solid screens? I didn't see one.

On defense, he played passively, not willing to seriously fight the post up. Lucky for him, Kareem was missing his patented sky hooks. That kept his points against tally to 18 overall. Transition defense was sloppy. Executed only 2 aggressive box outs. Worked much harder for position on the offensive glass.

Credit him with 2 assists (plus a resulting free throw for the recipient). Threw 1 interception which directly led to 2 points (plus a made free throw). Malone positively contributed 38 points while costing his team 21 points for a +17 overall.

Again, I'm not sure if we're watching the same thing. Are you sure you are paying attention?

Moses Malone is not Kendrick Perkins. It's clear that Del Harris is not asking Moses to set screens, but to go get down on the left low block on nearly every possession.

Moses gets that deep post position EVERY time. Whatever the reason is, the Lakers either can't or won't prevent him from getting there. The Lakers only defense against him is to deny the post entry pass, which they are effective at early, but how is that his fault?

In the first half the Lakers come with every kind of double team and it doesn't affect him. He uses his "patty cake" dribble just fine with guards in the area and doesn't get stripped once, scoring almost every time he puts the ball on the floor. The only turnover I saw in that half was an offensive foul for pushing off on a putback.
In the second half he turns it over once by losing it after successfully spinning away from a double team, he loses it once on a called travel during a hard double by Norm Nixon, and is stripped once on a soft double by Michael Cooper (who had tons of steals in that game from guys not named Malone), are you really going to knock a center for having their dribble affected occasionally by two guards that averaged a combined 3.4 steals that season?

He was doubled almost every time he caught the ball, at one point the announcer says
"He can barely breathe in there when he catches the ball", and you think losing it twice proves he has a suspect handle or can't deal with double teams? I'd say it pretty emphatically proves the opposite. He showed a confident handle and top-notch footwork over, and over, and over, and over... Your claims are not just wrong, but borderline disrespectful in their inaccuracy.

On defense your claims are even more ludicrous. Most of the Lakers half court possessions are spent taking perimeter jumpers. They spend a lot of time trying to get Malone cross matched away from Kareem, and the reason why is clear. Moses creates huge problems with his strength. He gets into Kareem's body every time, forcing him out of deep post position and away from the basket when he has the ball. He uses his hands to keep him in front at all times. Kareem has a tough time getting his footwork right and his balance centered on his shots when Moses defends him. Contrast that with Kareem's complete lack of success preventing Malone from getting right to the hoop time and again. If Moses played post defense "passively" (not remotely true), Kareem played it wiltingly, a little something like hot butter.
Watch how Kareem looks when anybody else is matched up with him, he gets exactly where he wants and every shot is in perfect rhythm, he's able to get uncontested putbacks, etc. It's night and day between Moses and any other defender.
When Moses is the help defender on anyone without an unblockable hook, you see him get a couple of blocks and contest many more shots.

The paint is unquestionably controlled by Moses Malone on both sides of the ball. I guess you thought no one was actually going to watch the video?

You said you were concerned with "whys and wheretofores" but apparently not enough to pay attention to them. Moses Malone not doing more off the ball on offense has very little to do with him and everything to do with unimaginative playcalling by Del Harris.

We could both describe every play in complete detail and invite others to compare them for accuracy, but I don't think anyone else is as obsessive as we are (or masochistic enough to subject themselves to that).
I doubt anyone watching that game would dispute these facts:

Moses Malone's role in the offense is defined by posting on the left low block, he is not asked to set screens or move around the floor.

Moses Malone was double teamed constantly and appeared to be completely unaffected by them except on very rare occasion.

Moses Malone was dramatically more effective in one-on-one defense against Kareem than any other player, and in fact does contest most shots that it makes sense for him to contest.

Kareem was not at all effective against him in one-on-one defense, and even with help, allowed Malone to score right at the basket at will.

Moses Malone does not pass much out of the post (he didn't need to as double teams had no effect) but in fact got more assists than turnovers from bad passes.

The Rockets lost that game but won the series, primarily due to Moses Malone's dominance.

[AlexBrady]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

1962

At the 3:00 mark, Baylor is standing in no man's land and allows Satch a wide open jumper. Elgin is unaware and casual defending this routine play.
At 3:25, Elgin plays Satch too softly, but Satch misses the jumper. Baylor contests (albeit with the wrong hand).
At 5:45, Elgin casually trails a handoff between Russell and Satch. Satch misses a semi-complicated layup.
At 10:20, Elgin doesn't bust it back in transition, while everyone else on the floor is back.
At 10:45, Elgin casually trails another handoff between Russell and Satch. Elgin contests with the wrong hand and doesn't really come across Satch's field of vision.
At 12:30, Elgin showcases his casual stance.
at 21:35, Elgin fails to tag Loscutoff in transition. Two points.

On these viewable plays, at least eight points should have been recorded against Baylor's casual efforts.


1981

Part 2, 4:40 mark. Nixon swipes at Malone's handle. He travels.
Part 2, 4:50, Malone gives Kareem a minimal bump. Doesn't control his left hip when he turns. Two points.
Part 2, 5:55. Malone doesn't control Kareem's left hip. A routine miss.
Part 2, 7:55. Malone forcefully bumps Kareem. Interferes with the finger roll. Good defense.
Part 3, 1:00. Malone is physical with Kareem coming across the lane. Kareem nudges Malone out of his circle of influence though.
Part 3, 2:00. Malone forcefully contests Kareem's hooker.
Part 3, 3:35. Malone fails to box out Kareem.
Part 4, 2:50. Malone throws a bad pass against a routine double down. Turns into three points for LA.
Part 4, 4:50. Malone gives Kareem the good spot. Doesn't control the left hip. No contest. Routine miss.
Part 4, 6:35. Malone forces a bad shot when out pass was called for.
Part 6, 4:15. Malone forces a shot, then is late to arrive on the scene on defense.
Part 6, 4:50. Malone doesn't really put his heart into the screen.
Part 6, 5:50. Malone forcefully denies Kareem the good spot.
Part 7, 4:35. Malone slides with Kareem, sticks a hand up there. Doesn't get the rebound though. Two points for LA.
Part 7, 4:55. Malone doesn't handle the double down well. Ball should have been returned out. Traveling.
Part 7, 5:55. Malone allows Kareem the good spot. Left hip isn't controlled. Two points.
Part 8, 1:20. Malone takes measures to control Kareem's left hip. Off balance miss. Doesn't get the traffic board though.
Part 8, 2:15. Malone is discomforted by the double down. Traveling.
Part 9, 2:05. Malone forcefully defends Chones' power drive.
Part 9, 2:55. Malone tries to put the ball down with the quick-handed Cooper on the scene. Stripped, turnover.
Part 9, 4:05. Malone anticipates Chones' pivot and blocks the shot.
Part 10, 8:20. Malone fails to box out Landsberger. Turns into three points.
Part 11, 3:55. Malone makes a terrific block of Kareem.
Part 12, 7:55. Malone makes too much of a commitment to Nixon, leaving Chones for the knockout basket.

Yes, Malone has success against Kareem's below average defense. This comes as no surprise whatsoever since Malone is powerful and determined near the basket and Kareem is totally reliant on finesse. However, I feel the total performance wasn't as hefty as the numbers indicate.

This was exactly how Moses operated at every stop in his career. He wanted to ensconce himself on the box and be fed the ball 35 times per game. In my opinion, thats a myopic gameplan.

In the 81 Finals against Boston, Houston struggled with their ball reversal because Moses insisted on forcing shots. For the series, Moses shot 48-119 and recorded 8 assists against 12 turnovers.

[Dice]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

LOL! At proving how much of a buster Moses Malone was.

I understand Moses Malone wasn’t a very articulate person and I could understand how someone could easily hate him personally but not one person with an ounce of basketball knowledge could deny that Moses during his prime was arguably the best player in the league. Was he a defensive monster? Not at the least bit. But he was far from being a liability. And if you’re evaluating his defense against Kareem, one of the greatest centers of all-time who still was a major scoring threat at that time, then the argument becomes moot. If we rated Joe Dumars defense against his play against Michael Jordan, then Dumars would be a piss poor defender. Jordan constantly put up 30+ against Dumars. And we can talk about how Dumars made Jordan work for every shot(which he did and which is what made him a great defender) but if we look at it from a standpoint of ‘he gave up 35 points’ then we’re missing the point.

AlexBrady, show me a couple of games where Malone gave up 20+ points to average-to-below average centers then I’d be inclined to believe you. Besides, you always said that Finals MVP’s is your measurement. Well, he did win Finals MVP in 83 and was the best player on the best team that year. Please tell me you disagree with that?

[ojandpizza]

Unseld set some of the sturdiest screens of all time which were crucial in his team's precision patterns. On a pattern ballclub, a good screener is just as important as a good shooter. Big Wes never looked to post up, but he filled lanes, threw bullet outlets, boxed out, and generally ruled the ballgame.

My biggest problem with your argument against Malone is probably your argument for Unseld.. I mean you're basically saying he deserves to be one of the 50 greatest players of all time because he set good screens, filled lanes, threw bullet outlets, and boxed out"

That's fine and all but then you want to remove Malone for having holes in his game. Unselds "holes" are far bigger. He didn't score well, didn't dominate the boards, didn't block shots well, I mean those are the 3 basic criteria areas to being a dominant big man..

You're basically saying a guy who could do all the little things well but can't do the most important things a big man is supposed to do should be in over a guy who excelled the way very few big men do at everything you want in a big man but lacked a few of the little things?

I agree sometimes to build a championship team you need the guys who can get the little things done. But this argument isn't about adding role players to build a championship team. It's about being one of the 50 greatest basketball players to ever play the game..

Judging by the logic you used for Unseld and Against Malone, it would be like removing Rick Barry or Dr. J for Ron Artest..

[DieHardYankee26]

I bet AB hated Dr. J

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: The 50 Greatest Players. Still true?

1962

At the 3:00 mark, Baylor is standing in no man's land and allows Satch a wide open jumper. Elgin is unaware and casual defending this routine play.
At 3:25, Elgin plays Satch too softly, but Satch misses the jumper. Baylor contests (albeit with the wrong hand).
At 5:45, Elgin casually trails a handoff between Russell and Satch. Satch misses a semi-complicated layup.
At 10:20, Elgin doesn't bust it back in transition, while everyone else on the floor is back.
At 10:45, Elgin casually trails another handoff between Russell and Satch. Elgin contests with the wrong hand and doesn't really come across Satch's field of vision.
At 12:30, Elgin showcases his casual stance.
at 21:35, Elgin fails to tag Loscutoff in transition. Two points.

On these viewable plays, at least eight points should have been recorded against Baylor's casual efforts.

But how many actually were? A measly 2.

Did you see that play where he didn't get back on defense? Before we lose sight of him, he stops completely. That isn't laziness, there's something else going on. Sure, he could have been arguing with the ref, but he also could have been hurt or had a shoe come off.

Did you see Satch's shots? The first was a one-footed, off-balance 20+ footer with (as you astutely pointed out) no one in the area. They were all not just misses, but terrible bricks. Isn't it possible that Baylor was told to sag way off of him?

If you've ever had to support a thesis, you should know this is D- work at best.

I didn't come in with any preconceived notions about Baylor's defense or off-ball habits, but you haven't convinced me with this. Now, if he looked like that guarding a real scorer, or if you can prove he was never assigned to guard one, I'd be happy to concede your points about him.

We haven't even seen evidence of things we take for granted about him, let alone things that the available stats don't clue us in about.

I just have to ask, what's with the fixation on contesting with the "correct" hand? A right-hand dominant player like Baylor is going to be leading with that side and consequently have that hand closer to the ball on closeouts like the ones you nitpicked. It would have been awkward for him to use his left in those situations. Now, if he was up on Satch, shading to one side, etc. I could see him using his left.
Being of cross-dominant handedness myself, I contest comfortably with both, but it's not something I ever heard a coach talk to another player about. Unless you played for some genius defensive coach, on a team that set records for opponent FG% allowed, you might want to consider that this isn't any significant part of what makes or breaks an effective defender.

1981

Part 2, 4:40 mark. Nixon swipes at Malone's handle. He travels.
Part 2, 4:50, Malone gives Kareem a minimal bump. Doesn't control his left hip when he turns. Two points.
Part 2, 5:55. Malone doesn't control Kareem's left hip. A routine miss.
Part 2, 7:55. Malone forcefully bumps Kareem. Interferes with the finger roll. Good defense.
Part 3, 1:00. Malone is physical with Kareem coming across the lane. Kareem nudges Malone out of his circle of influence though.
Part 3, 2:00. Malone forcefully contests Kareem's hooker.
Part 3, 3:35. Malone fails to box out Kareem.
Part 4, 2:50. Malone throws a bad pass against a routine double down. Turns into three points for LA.
Part 4, 4:50. Malone gives Kareem the good spot. Doesn't control the left hip. No contest. Routine miss.
Part 4, 6:35. Malone forces a bad shot when out pass was called for.
Part 6, 4:15. Malone forces a shot, then is late to arrive on the scene on defense.
Part 6, 4:50. Malone doesn't really put his heart into the screen.
Part 6, 5:50. Malone forcefully denies Kareem the good spot.
Part 7, 4:35. Malone slides with Kareem, sticks a hand up there. Doesn't get the rebound though. Two points for LA.
Part 7, 4:55. Malone doesn't handle the double down well. Ball should have been returned out. Traveling.
Part 7, 5:55. Malone allows Kareem the good spot. Left hip isn't controlled. Two points.
Part 8, 1:20. Malone takes measures to control Kareem's left hip. Off balance miss. Doesn't get the traffic board though.
Part 8, 2:15. Malone is discomforted by the double down. Traveling.
Part 9, 2:05. Malone forcefully defends Chones' power drive.
Part 9, 2:55. Malone tries to put the ball down with the quick-handed Cooper on the scene. Stripped, turnover.
Part 9, 4:05. Malone anticipates Chones' pivot and blocks the shot.
Part 10, 8:20. Malone fails to box out Landsberger. Turns into three points.
Part 11, 3:55. Malone makes a terrific block of Kareem.
Part 12, 7:55. Malone makes too much of a commitment to Nixon, leaving Chones for the knockout basket.

Yes, Malone has success against Kareem's below average defense. This comes as no surprise whatsoever since Malone is powerful and determined near the basket and Kareem is totally reliant on finesse. However, I feel the total performance wasn't as hefty as the numbers indicate.

This was exactly how Moses operated at every stop in his career. He wanted to ensconce himself on the box and be fed the ball 35 times per game. In my opinion, thats a myopic gameplan.

In the 81 Finals against Boston, Houston struggled with their ball reversal because Moses insisted on forcing shots. For the series, Moses shot 48-119 and recorded 8 assists against 12 turnovers.

Well, this is far from a complete list of Malone's plays, and since your goal is clearly to reinforce your own opinions, should we assume the rest don't help that effort?
It's nice to see you point out some of the times he was effective, but this list still omits a lot of positives, not to mention that it's full of things that you just didn't like which had no negative consequence, and many more that you describe in a way that is either incomplete or inaccurate, from my POV.

You blame Moses for a "myopic gameplan". This is the NBA. Coaches create gameplans, players execute them. His teams WANTED him to "ensconce himself on the box and be fed the ball 35 times a game".

I'm starting to wonder if you ever try playing devil's advocate. You might find it sharpens your own points if you understand what the arguments against them might be, and how even individual plays can reasonably be perceived in different ways.

You called Moses a "passive" defender, but even your own descriptions of his play don't consistently support that. No less an authority than Bill Russell called him "One of the hard workers, one of the really hard workers..." during game 3 of the '83 Finals. Moses Malone's reputation among NBA analysts is one of an effective team (if not individual) defender. The Sixers who were already known as a defensive team, got measurably better when they added Malone. You contrasted his physical style with Kareem's finesse. What is Moses Malone if not a player who made the most of his strength(s)?

Since we'll never get anywhere your way, I'll help you out.

Top centers, career turnovers per game/TOV%/DRtg

Moses Malone 3.1 / 14.6% / 104
Kareem 2.7 / 13.4 / 99 (these stats not kept for the first 8 years of his career)
Artis Gilmore 3.1 / 17.4 / 101
Robert Parish 2.1 / 13.9 / 102
Ewing 3.0 / 13.6 / 99
David Robinson 2.4 / 11.9 / 96
Olajuwon 3.0 / 13.1 / 98
Shaq 2.7 / 11.9 / 101
Mutombo 1.8 / 17.5% / 99
Mourning 2.6 / 15.2 / 100
Dwight Howard 3.1 / 16.9 / 98

In this elite company, he is below average at taking care of the ball, but nowhere near the liability you claim he is.
The DRtg really stands out though. His number is quite respectable compared to mere mortals, but pales in comparison to the rest of these true defensive anchors.

Tell me again why you hate advanced stats so much when they can help your argument more than you were ever going to?

Don't knock these numbers just because they make David Robinson look like the GOAT.

[ojandpizza]

So I was thinking back the other day on some of the discussions we had in this thread and one thing that really got me thinking was people saying Nash or Kidd, or Nash and Kidd deserved in..

I started to think about these two guys and I immediately thought to myself "Kidd definitely deserves in before Nash"

But then I started to think about more and couldn't give a solid reason why.. Kidd has always been better defensively, and can play both ends of the court at their very top level.. However, Nash has two MVP awards and percentage wise is the best shooter in NBA history.. So who do you take? Kidd just got his ring, but lets be honest it wasn't like it was HIS ring. He was well past his prime when winning it..

Anyways what do you guys think? My gut, for some reason, just screams Kidd.. But when I make myself go back and think about it I can't think of a reason as to why he would be anymore deserving than Steve Nash..