Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

[iLLmatic]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Is not about him being an all around player....

He's not efficient in what he's good at. Defense aside..

He scores a bunch but it also takes him a lot of possessions to do so. Doesnt shoot a high % compared to the rest of the current guards. Turn the ball over.. Etc etc..

-Juke

This is pretty much it in a nutshell. Take away all of Monta's acrobatic drives to the rim, his high scoring games and what you have is an undersized 2 guard who plays no defense, a combination that usually leaves his team on the losing end. His best role was what he played on the 2007 Warriors playoff team when he was coming off of the bench as an active energetic player who could keep the uptempo pace while Baron and other starters rested.

Sadly though as the players on that team left or were traded, he eagerly took on the role of the teams high volume scorer but didn't develop the rest of his game which is a large part of the reason why he is viewed as he is. A very good player, but not a top guard in the league.

[plzwork12]

Because he doesn't do anything ... Kobe led his team to Championships and he's considered "Selfish" but Monta doesn't do anything but score and leads to nothing.

What does Kobe have to do with this? Lol

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[Dice]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

seriously why doesnt anyone ever complains about the guys who cant score for not being all around players? seems to me only the guys who main calling card is scoring get called out for not being all around players when majority of the players in the league could be classified as 1 dimentional?

This is the argument I have when someone puts Dennis Rodman in the HOF before Charles Barkley. And this is not to say that both is not deserving but I hear too many times about how Barkley couldn't play defense but ignore the other superior parts of his game. Then I hear how Rodman is a deserving first ballot HOFer and never hear that he only averages 7.3 points per game in his career. Then we look at his championships to Barkely and yes it's a significant advantage. 5-0. But was those five championships was solely because of him? Yes, he played a significant role but I don't ever remember him winning Finals MVP's in any of those championships. Barkley had a much bigger role in most of the teams he played for in his career. And while he did fall short of a championship it’s not a longshot to say that if Rodman was the focal point of any of the teams he played for, that team wouldn’t even be in the playoffs let alone win 5 championships.

And this is to say that I’m not a big Charles Barkley fan but if my back was against the wall and I had a gun to my head and I only had to choose one player out of these two to go to the hall of fame, without hesitation, I’d choose Barkley.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

The reality is that defense constitutes at least half the game. The league-wide shooting percentage usually hovers around 47 percent, which means that the defense triumphs 53 percent of the time. A considerable advantage.

Rodman was a perfect fit on the Bulls title clubs. A better fit than Barkley would have been. How a player fits with the talents of his teammates and the system of his coach is more important than sheer talent.

[Dice]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

The reality is that defense constitutes at least half the game. The league-wide shooting percentage usually hovers around 47 percent, which means that the defense triumphs 53 percent of the time. A considerable advantage.

Rodman was a perfect fit on the Bulls title clubs. A better fit than Barkley would have been. How a player fits with the talents of his teammates and the system of his coach is more important than sheer talent.

But the basic object of the game is to score more points than the opposing team. I understand the importance of defense but it seems like your taking the numbers and trying to turn it to your favor. Numbers don't lie unless you make it lie. That 53% is not always the reason of the other teams defense. Maybe the team that missed 53% of it's shots can't shoot? Maybe a stagnant offense? Or they just flat out suck?

And I think your missing the Barkely-Rodman point. But if you're gonna tell me that Barkley wouldn't have been a fit on the second three-peat Bulls(which is true) then I'd come back and tell you that the Phoenix Suns would have never went to the NBA Finals if you traded Barkely for Rodman in 1993. Matter of fact, the Suns probably would have never made it past the first round if Dennis Rodman was the PF instead of Barkely.

And as far as fitting with his team, how well did Rodman 'fit' with his team during the Spurs 1995 playoff run?

Neither player to me was 'well rounded' but Barkley had more skills as a player than Rodman.

[beast10]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

What does Kobe have to do with this? Lol

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I'm not putting him in this I'm using him as an example.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Is not about him being an all around player....

He's not efficient in what he's good at. Defense aside..

He scores a bunch but it also takes him a lot of possessions to do so. Doesnt shoot a high % compared to the rest of the current guards. Turn the ball over.. Etc etc..




-Juke

Monta Ellis: Career FG%: 46.4%
Last season: 43.3%

Kobe: Career FG%: 45.3%
Last season: 43.0%

Manu Ginobli: Career FG%: 45.2%
Last healthy season: 43.3%

Joe Johnson: Career FG%: 44.4%
Last season: 45.4%

Eric Gordon: Career FG%: 45.2%
Last season: 45.0%

Dwyane Wade: Career FG%: 48.6%
Last season: 49.7%

Even looking at eFG and TS%, Monta is right on par with Kobe and Joe Johnson. Wade and Ginobili are both far ahead of those three though.

[TajDeni]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Monta Ellis: Career FG%: 46.4%
Last season: 43.3%

Kobe: Career FG%: 45.3%
Last season: 43.0%

Manu Ginobli: Career FG%: 45.2%
Last healthy season: 43.3%

Joe Johnson: Career FG%: 44.4%
Last season: 45.4%

Eric Gordon: Career FG%: 45.2%
Last season: 45.0%

Dwyane Wade: Career FG%: 48.6%
Last season: 49.7%

Even looking at eFG and TS%, Monta is right on par with Kobe and Joe Johnson. Wade and Ginobili are both far ahead of those three though.

there goes them stats again...

without context stats are irrelevent. and thats the entire problem with using stats, the further and further you get away from the actual events that produced the stats the more the stats lose context.

4ex. i love it how everyone likes to points to Kobe's subpar shooting percentage last yr, and it was subpar, but at the same time they leave out the fact that at the very of beginning of last yr maybe even in the preseason, the guy tore all the ligaments in his shooting wrist. and for the 2nd time in his career he has had to reconstruct his shooting form. (1st time the torn ligament in his pinky).

and this is what i mean about stats...ppl act like losing the ligaments in your shooting wrist is no big deal and had zero factor on his shooting percentage dipping to maybe his career low. i dont know how much it played apart but you have to assume it played some part in the slippage. but just looking at the stats would never reveal this.

im not siding with Kobe as much as im simply saying, that stats without any context are worthless, because so many different factors go into those stats that alot of time you dont have any backstory for. its akin to me showing you a still picture from a vacation i was on, without you having any context the picture doesnt hold the same value for you as it does for me. and simply because i have all the context to go along with the picture.

im really start to think that this stat-centric era we seemed to be in right now, lead by guys like Hollinger and his PER are really skewing ppl perception of the actual game.

i can look at a guy and tell if he can play, and Monte can play, he has value. he, like majority of the players in the league, just needs to be put in better situations for him to maximize his chances for success.

[Jukeman]

Monta Ellis: Career FG%: 46.4%
Last season: 43.3%

Kobe: Career FG%: 45.3%
Last season: 43.0%

Manu Ginobli: Career FG%: 45.2%
Last healthy season: 43.3%

Joe Johnson: Career FG%: 44.4%
Last season: 45.4%

Eric Gordon: Career FG%: 45.2%
Last season: 45.0%

Dwyane Wade: Career FG%: 48.6%
Last season: 49.7%

Even looking at eFG and TS%, Monta is right on par with Kobe and Joe Johnson. Wade and Ginobili are both far ahead of those three though.

Im willing to bet he has the lowest FG% on shots 15 feet and out (which he is starting to take a lot of btw) compared to all those guys.

We all know he's one of the better finishers around the rim and the career FG% is all that proves.

He's not effective without the ball. He takes bad shots and considering the amount of minutes he plays while being the slasher he is, he should be going to the FT line way more than he currently does. He has bad shot selection.

He's a good scorer no doubt but he doesnt beat you in many ways like Kobe who is also known as a bad shooter. Heck, AI made sure he got to the line 10 times a game.

Not to mention the obvious of those guys do way more than just score.

But I see your point was about my FG% comment.




-Juke

[K.So]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

I'm not putting him in this I'm using him as an example.

Yeah, except Kobe actually can play defense in those championship years, is a willing passer, and not just out of pressure when Ellis drives, can actually rebound the ball and has a better offensive game than Ellis. Try again.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Im willing to bet he has the lowest FG% on shots 15 feet and out (which he is starting to take a lot of btw) compared to all those guys.

We all know he's one of the better finishers around the rim and the career FG% is all that proves.

He's not effective without the ball. He takes bad shots and considering the amount of minutes he plays while being the slasher he is, he should be going to the FT line way more than he currently does. He has bad shot selection.

He's a good scorer no doubt but he doesnt beat you in many ways like Kobe who is also known as a bad shooter. Heck, AI made sure he got to the line 10 times a game.

Not to mention the obvious of those guys do way more than just score.

But I see your point was about my FG% comment.




-Juke

Agreed that they all do more than score, but they all shoot about the same from 16-23 feet out. And I think people exaggerate Ellis's weaknesses. Yeah, he has a quick trigger, but he also showed last year that he can be a playmaker, leading the team in assists around 6 a game I believe.

Comparing him to Joe Johnson (just because Kobe, Gordon, Ginobili, and Wade were ALL injured last year...speaking of which, good god it was a bad year for SGs lol), Johnson was far better last year in isolation. They were about even on pick and rolls. Spotting up, Johnson was one of the best in the league, while Ellis was solid (better than Kobe), but nothing special. Coming off screens, these two were among the best in the league, and on cuts, they were both very good.

That's the best I can about how they score.

Regarding passing, Ellis had the best Assist:Turnover ratio out of any of those guys that I listed I believe and racked up more assists than any of them.

Defensively, the thing that kills him is he's lazy getting around screens and obviously he's undersized, but he was still very good in defending in isolation situations and does a good job of picking up steals.

Sorry I kind of just ranted towards you lol, just kind of started looking all of their numbers up and stuff to backup what I watched after we acquired him last year.

I have no questions about the ball movement with this team. After we got Ellis, the ball movement was great.

[ojandpizza]

Yeah, except Kobe actually can play defense in those championship years, is a willing passer, and not just out of pressure when Ellis drives, can actually rebound the ball and has a better offensive game than Ellis. Try again.

First of all, he wasn't trying to compare the two.. He made that very clear in next post.

Second of all, Kobe is by no means a willing passer. If he was a willing passer the Bynum/Gasol post tandem would be absolutely lethal in today's league with the lack of big men.

Don't act like Kobe doesn't take too many shots often to the detriment of his team man. Most of the time he ends up scoring enough to make up for it, but still, he's not good at getting his team involved or at making his teammates better.

If you're an actual Lakers fan then you should see this first hand.. I assume you watch their games? Or maybe you just have that Lakers logo as your picture because you're a Kobe fan?

[pw_1016]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

I like how people in this thread are comparing Kobe to Monta Ellis. I think Monta himself would like to think that he is the next Kobe. He will never be the next Kobe if he continues to play on crap teams where he has to do the majority of the scoring. (although, David Lee and Stephen Curry are not bad scorers)

Why is Eric Gordon even mentioned in this thread as if he is a top SG? that dude is horrible

[iAM-IncReDiBLe-]

Eric Gordon is horrible? That's laughable.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Why is Monta Ellis not considered a top guard?

Really Wade shouldn't be a top 3 SG of an NBA era? He has a scoring title, 2 rings, and a finals MVP. Plays both ends of the court and plays very well in the big moments of big games..He's no slouch!

Who said anything about an era?

I'm talking about right now, not what he has accomplished over his career. Like I think Tim Duncan is the greatest PF of all time...but that doesn't mean I think he's the best PF in the game right now, if that make sense.