Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

[da ThRONe]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Yes, they drafted "once-in-a-generation guys" . . . in back-to-back years.

Right.

Yes, those guys eventually left, but based on your post, you'd think they left after two seasons.

Cleveland had LeBron James for seven years.

Dwight Howard was in Orlando for eight.

Those teams had plenty of time to build a championship-caliber team around those stars so that they'd want to stick around for longer.

They didn't get it done.

They didn't have a choice whether to leave or not. Teams have the option of keeping players much longer than two years.

Nobody is agruing that either team couldn't get it done it's why they didn't get it done that's the problem. We've had three of the leagues all-time greats on less stellar teams not get players to come play with them. We had Paul with my Hornets, Howard in Orlando and James in Cleveland. So if you are telling me all players care about is winning and/or money why is it so hard for these 3 teams that drafted once in a generation players Orl, NO, or Cle to get that 2nd star to play with all-times greats?

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

They didn't have a choice whether to leave or not. Teams have the option of keeping players much longer than two years.

Nobody is agruing that either team couldn't get it done it's why they didn't get it done that's the problem. We've had three of the leagues all-time greats in less stellar teams not get players to come play with them. We had Paul with my Hornets, Howard in Orlando and James in Cleveland. So if you are telling me all players care about is winning and/or money why is it so hard for these 3 teams that drafted once in a generation players Orl, NO, or Cle to get that 2nd star to play with all-times greats?

I know those guys didn't have much a choice to leave earlier. What I meant is that LeBron and Howard were with their original clubs for a LONG time in NBA terms.

Why is it so hard for the Hornets, Magic, and Cavaliers to get players to play with their superstars?

Because it takes skill to have the available salary and the right mix of players in place in order to acquire another star.

I never said it was easy. But it's not EASY for ANY team to do it, regardless of market.

Hell, look at the Bulls. They're one of the biggest market teams. They have some good role players in place around Derrick Rose, but they've struggled to take that next leap because they haven't brought in anyone better than Boozer or Noah to play with Rose. From my understanding, that's largely a financial issue for them.

Even the Lakers had trouble. It took them four years from the time Shaq left to bring in someone (Pau Gasol) to team with Kobe. In between, they missed the playoffs and then bowed out in the first round twice.

The Heat pulled it off because they were able to clean house financially and convince veteran role players like Mike Miller to join the team on a team-friendly contract.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

I know those guys didn't have much a choice to leave earlier. What I meant is that LeBron and Howard were with their original clubs for a LONG time in NBA terms.

Why is it so hard for the Hornets, Magic, and Cavaliers to get players to play with their superstars?

Because it takes skill to have the available salary and the right mix of players in place in order to acquire another star.

I never said it was easy. But it's not EASY for ANY team to do it, regardless of market.

Hell, look at the Bulls. They're one of the biggest market teams. They have some good role players in place around Derrick Rose, but they've struggled to take that next leap because they haven't brought in anyone better than Boozer or Noah to play with Rose. From my understanding, that's largely a financial issue for them.

Even the Lakers had trouble. It took them four years from the time Shaq left to bring in someone (Pau Gasol) to team with Kobe. In between, they missed the playoffs and then bowed out in the first round twice.

The Heat pulled it off because they were able to clean house financially and convince veteran role players like Mike Miller to join the team on a team-friendly contract.

It seems very easy for Boston and L.A.L.

Guys aren't running to Minneapolis or Milwaukee. You mention Chicago and Boozer. Boozer in his prime is better than any free agent that Cle, NO, or Orl, has gotten. Ofcourse if there's a winning core in place already players will be more willing to go to non-glam teams. It's getting the winning core that is extremely difficult and where the heart of the parity issue lays. The system isn't extremely bad, but it's most certainly noticablely broken.

Whether acquiring the stars yield winning big and/or often or not non-glamour teams don't get stars unless they draft them. That means the system is broken.

Memphis is a great example. They acquired Gasol, Conley, and Gay all on draft day. They got Randolph in free agency because his stock was down. They were forced to over pay Gay to keep him. While that core will keep them in the playoffs for the forseeable future. They aren't a legit title team and they won't acquire the star to put them over the top because guys aren't looking to play in Memphis.

[C the Lyte]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

^So are you proposing to kill free agency? It seems that some of you are for limiting where a guy goes.

These guys are choosing (for the most part) where they want to go.

These teams are clearing out financial room to get these guys. In some cases teams are paying out the wazoo in luxury taxes.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

^So are you proposing to kill free agency? It seems that some of you are for limiting where a guy goes.

These guys are choosing (for the most part) where they want to go.

These teams are clearing out financial room to get these guys. In some cases teams are paying out the wazoo in luxury taxes.

Nope. I expressed what the problems are. The main problem being max contracts. If the most LeBron can make a year is 20mil than it makes sense to take 16 and team up with Wade and Bosh. If you can give LeBron 40mil that would be make a difference. 4mil over the spand of 5 years 20mil 20mil over the spand of 5 years 100mil.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

It seems very easy for Boston and L.A.L.

Guys aren't running to Minneapolis or Milwaukee. You mention Chicago and Boozer. Boozer in his prime is better than any free agent that Cle, NO, or Orl, has gotten. Ofcourse if there's a winning core in place already players will be more willing to go to non-glam teams. It's getting the winning core that is extremely difficult and where the heart of the parity issue lays. The system isn't extremely bad, but it's most certainly noticablely broken.

Whether acquiring the stars yield winning big and/or often or not non-glamour teams don't get stars unless they draft them. That means the system is broken.

Memphis is a great example. They acquired Gasol, Conley, and Gay all on draft day. They got Randolph in free agency because his stock was down. They were forced to over pay Gay to keep him. While that core will keep them in the playoffs for the forseeable future. They aren't a legit title team and they won't acquire the star to put them over the top because guys aren't looking to play in Memphis.

Easy for the Lakers? After they had to get rid of Shaq -- even though they're a big market team? -- they missed the playoffs and were bounced out in the first round for two years after that. It took them FOUR years to get another star, and ANOTHER four after that to get another.

Easy for Boston? It took a master stroke by Danny Ainge to make that happen. And he traded for Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. Neither of those guys signed with or forced their way to Boston. Ainge made it happen through some brilliant personnel work.

What's funny is that four years ago, you would have been arguing that a small market team like Miami, who had just gone 15-67, couldn't attract stars to play with Wade.

It only looks impossible for a small market team when they have a bloated payroll filled with average players. That's a result of poor management, not simply being a small market.

You're using Memphis as an example? They're a perfect case for what I'm telling you. They have the 11th highest payroll in the NBA! Maybe they'd be able to get a superstar if they weren't paying Randolph, Gay, Gasol, and Conley a combined $57M! That's more than the entire payroll of seven other NBA teams for four guys who aren't elite players at their position.

Being a small market isn't holding them back. They're stuck because they have tons of money wrapped up in guys who won't win them a title.

[DukeC]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Easy for the Lakers? After they had to get rid of Shaq -- even though they're a big market team? -- they missed the playoffs and were bounced out in the first round for two years after that. It took them FOUR years to get another star, and ANOTHER four after that to get another.

Easy for Boston? It took a master stroke by Danny Ainge to make that happen. And he traded for Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. Neither of those guys signed with or forced their way to Boston. Ainge made it happen through some brilliant personnel work.

What's funny is that four years ago, you would have been arguing that a small market team like Miami, who had just gone 15-67, couldn't attract stars to play with Wade.

It only looks impossible for a small market team when they have a bloated payroll filled with average players. That's a result of poor management, not simply being a small market.

You're using Memphis as an example? They're a perfect case for what I'm telling you. They have the 11th highest payroll in the NBA! Maybe they'd be able to get a superstar if they weren't paying Randolph, Gay, Gasol, and Conley a combined $57M! That's more than the entire payroll of seven other NBA teams for four guys who aren't elite players at their position.

Being a small market isn't holding them back. They're stuck because they have tons of money wrapped up in guys who won't win them a title.

This tickles me man.

We're just going to ignore the years where Paul Pierce was by HIMSELF (Averaging at least 25PPG on a terrible team) for an extended period of time? We're just going to forget the Boston Celtics were the LAUGHING-STOCK of the NBA at one point (several years in fact)?

What kind of revisionist history is going on here?

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

You're proving my point.

I'm saying that it's REALLY difficult for even the big market teams to build a core of star players.

People in this thread are talking like teams like the Lakers and Celtics have it easy when it comes to getting a group of star players.

It's complete fiction.

The Lakers STRUGGLED for years before they could find another star to play with Kobe.

The Celtics SUCKED for a long time before they were finally able to land Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett to play with Paul Pierce.

GETTING those guys was a piece of tremendous managing by Danny Ainge. But the process that he had to go through to get there was incredibly difficult, despite being one of the biggest market teams in the NBA.

[DukeC]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

You're proving my point.

I'm saying that it's REALLY difficult for even the big market teams to build a core of star players.

People in this thread are talking like teams like the Lakers and Celtics have it easy when it comes to getting a group of star players.

It's complete fiction.

The Lakers STRUGGLED for years before they could find another star to play with Kobe.

The Celtics SUCKED for a long time before they were finally able to land Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett to play with Paul Pierce.

GETTING those guys was a piece of tremendous managing by Danny Ainge. But the process that he had to go through to get there was incredibly difficult, despite being one of the biggest market teams in the NBA.

I know. I was agreeing with you

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Haha! My bad! I didn't sleep much last night!

Still, what I said stands on its own.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Easy for the Lakers? After they had to get rid of Shaq -- even though they're a big market team? -- they missed the playoffs and were bounced out in the first round for two years after that. It took them FOUR years to get another star, and ANOTHER four after that to get another.

Then Kobe cried and magically they pulled off the 2nd worst deal in recent memory(Only topped by the Howard trade).

Easy for Boston? It took a master stroke by Danny Ainge to make that happen. And he traded for Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. Neither of those guys signed with or forced their way to Boston. Ainge made it happen through some brilliant personnel work.

You are focusing on free agency. Trades count also. Many times those players have to agree to sign extensions before GM's are willing to pull the triggger that's what happened with those guys. It also hampers the less desirable markets from being able to make block buster acquisitions. Not only do they have to have the assets to trade they have to have the approval from the player they are trading for or hope they could persuade them to change their minds.

What's funny is that four years ago, you would have been arguing that a small market team like Miami, who had just gone 15-67, couldn't attract stars to play with Wade.

How you know what I would argue? Shaq while still in his prime went from the Lakers to the Heat and thats how Wade got his 1st ring.

It only looks impossible for a small market team when they have a bloated payroll filled with average players. That's a result of poor management, not simply being a small market.

That's not true. Teams have to have good players for their fans or nobody would ever show up. If they don't over pay guys like Lewis, Gay, J. Johnson etc. they'll just go earn their market value for glamour teams.

You're using Memphis as an example? They're a perfect case for what I'm telling you. They have the 11th highest payroll in the NBA! Maybe they'd be able to get a superstar if they weren't paying Randolph, Gay, Gasol, and Conley a combined $57M! That's more than the entire payroll of seven other NBA teams for four guys who aren't elite players at their position.

Being a small market isn't holding them back. They're stuck because they have tons of money wrapped up in guys who won't win them a title.

Theirs only a finite number of superstars and stars in the league. If all the superstars are in big markets what is a small market team suppose to do? Just pay market value for the scraps left after all the glamour team collect all the talent. Over paying and the draft are the only weapons non-glam teams have to compete. Look at the list of top 20 players. Most if not all of those names are on glam teams are on the team that drafted them and on their second contracts.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Now you're just making stuff up.

1.) The Lakers didn't magically get Pau Gasol after Kobe started crying.

Please.

Kobe complained for almost four whole years after Shaq left before the Lakers finally brought in Pau.

2.) Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett did not, as you said, "agree to sign an extension" to join the Celtics. Allen had three years left on his contract at the time of the Sonics-Celtics trade.

And Kevin Garnett? Really? He blocked several trade attempts from the Celtics because he hated the idea of playing in Boston. He refused to go there.

And now you're trying to tell me that the Celtics being a big market gave them a huge advantage in getting him? He was refusing to play there!

3.) Yes, Shaq went to the Heat. And then as soon as they started losing, he begged to be traded out of Miami.

Does he seem like a star who -- as you say -- cares most about playing in a big market, or one who -- as I've been saying -- cares most about playing with teammates who can win?

4.) Teams have to have good players or their fans will never show up?

There were some teams with very few stars or even none in the top ten of attendance last year. Go look.

5.) Nobody called Miami a big market until they got LeBron and Bosh. People used to say they were a small market team that couldn't afford to get top players.

Now all of a sudden, you're trying to tell me they're a big market team and the small market teams have no chance of getting stars.

Right.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Now you're just making stuff up.

1.) The Lakers didn't magically get Pau Gasol after Kobe started crying.

Please.

Kobe complained for almost four whole years after Shaq left before the Lakers finally brought in Pau.

He pushed Shaq away because he wanted to prove he could be the man.

2.) Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett did not, as you said, "agree to sign an extension" to join the Celtics. Allen had three years left on his contract at the time of the Sonics-Celtics trade.

And Kevin Garnett? Really? He blocked several trade attempts from the Celtics because he hated the idea of playing in Boston. He refused to go there.

And now you're trying to tell me that the Celtics being a big market gave them a huge advantage in getting him? He was refusing to play there!

You say Garnett didn't want to be in Boston yet he agreed to an extension anyways. The reason KG didn't want to play for the C's is because he didn't want to live in Boston after rumors he heard about the city.

I may be wrong about Ray but the principle is the same. Very few GM's are willing to trade away young assets if they can't get some type of understanding with the player their bringing in.

3.) Yes, Shaq went to the Heat. And then as soon as they started losing, he begged to be traded out of Miami.

Does he seem like a star who -- as you say -- cares most about playing in a big market, or one who -- as I've been saying -- cares most about playing with teammates who can win?

Shaq was out of his prime, injury lagged and over weight by the time he left Mia. At that point his success was much more tied to the players he was playing with not his own abilities.

Ofcourse players want to win, but given the choice of winning for a glamour team or winning for a non-glamour team the players choose the former all the time.

4.) Teams have to have good players or their fans will never show up?

There were some teams with very few stars or even none in the top ten of attendance last year. Go look.

Pretty much every fan base aren't supporting losing franchises. If stats say one or two fan bases showed up 1 year it's the exception not the rule.

Is this your stance fans will support C- level talent so long as FO's don't overpay? Are you going to ignore the fact that player usually control where they want to go when they are nearing the end of their contracts?

How many big stars were dying to get to San Antonio when they were winning rings ever other year? There's already talks that Harden won't stay in OKC.

5.) Nobody called Miami a big market until they got LeBron and Bosh. People used to say they were a small market team that couldn't afford to get top players.


Now all of a sudden, you're trying to tell me they're a big market team and the small market teams have no chance of getting stars.

Right.

I'll give you this. Miami wasn't on most peoples minds until Wade and Shaq won a ring. And nobody considered them this evil machine until they got Bosh and James. However with an owner willing to spend, a large population, big media coverage, ideal living destination, and wealthy fanbase Miami is a glamour team.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Can you make me a list of the teams you consider "glamour teams," just so we're on the same page?

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

It's tough reading through the last few pages. This aint a fair fight