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  • ojandpizza
    Hall Of Fame
    • Apr 2011
    • 29807

    #301
    Re: ESPN Top 100 list



    I thought this was a pretty crazy accomplishment, more so than the points or FGs made and all that. Obviously LeBron played in an era where “efficiency” kinda took over as the be-all stat, lots of players in the modern NBA are mindful of their efficiency and LeBron is no exception to that.. but still cool to see him moving into rankings like this.


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    • ojandpizza
      Hall Of Fame
      • Apr 2011
      • 29807

      #302
      Re: ESPN Top 100 list

      Originally posted by AlexBrady
      Harden is certainly worthy of a top 100 listing but not yet at the 50 greatest level. He must prove that his personal offense-only gameplan is good enough to compel his team to a championship and he needs to make more game changing plays deep in the playoffs.


      If he fails to accomplish this then he is more of a crowd-pleaser like George Gervin or Pete Maravich but not a truly iconic player.
      I agree with the point that we need to see him make more game changing plays on the leagues biggest stage, I'm not going to put a championship or bust type of label on his ranking though. He may never win one, but I at least think he needs to play well enough to give his team a chance. I'm not sure he has quite been able to do that for a whole series.

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      • ojandpizza
        Hall Of Fame
        • Apr 2011
        • 29807

        #303
        Re: ESPN Top 100 list




        One of the more interesting ones of these I’ve came across.. maybe the only one where all 10 guys could be considered top 20 players at their best.

        I don’t like the fit in terms of spacing, ball-hog ness, etc for either team personally.. but is it wrong of me to think that which ever of the two Magic and Bird have to match up with are going to be far too difficult for them to defend?

        Also kinda siding with Duncan here. He’s the only guy here who I feel would relinquish his touches while being an A+ defender at the other end. Magic would be really the only other guy who truly excels without a plethora of touches, but I feel like sticking him on Wade, Kobe, or Bron is asking him to get burned. “In their prime” Wade might realistically be a bit too quick for any of them, perhaps not MJ but you can’t ask Bird to guard Kobe if you make that switch.


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        • AlexBrady
          MVP
          • Jul 2008
          • 3341

          #304
          Re: ESPN Top 100 list

          Originally posted by ojandpizza



          One of the more interesting ones of these I’ve came across.. maybe the only one where all 10 guys could be considered top 20 players at their best.

          I don’t like the fit in terms of spacing, ball-hog ness, etc for either team personally.. but is it wrong of me to think that which ever of the two Magic and Bird have to match up with are going to be far too difficult for them to defend?

          Also kinda siding with Duncan here. He’s the only guy here who I feel would relinquish his touches while being an A+ defender at the other end. Magic would be really the only other guy who truly excels without a plethora of touches, but I feel like sticking him on Wade, Kobe, or Bron is asking him to get burned. “In their prime” Wade might realistically be a bit too quick for any of them, perhaps not MJ but you can’t ask Bird to guard Kobe if you make that switch.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          An interesting matchup to ponder and I agree with you that the teams don't necessarily fit from a stylistic standpoint. Wade's outside shooting isn't quite good enough to really torch magic's poor defense which would allow him to play wade soft. Wade and LeBRon have the same exact game plan and both are ill suited to being facilating points. Kobe was a tad worse than Mj in every category and would likely stall the offense in an attempt to 'outdo' Jordan. Bir could compensate for his poor defense by passing, rebounding and hitting treys. The big matchups are basically a wash. Magic, bird, and Jordan could synchronize their games with their bigs better than lebron and wade could. Only Kobe's perimeter shooting can match Jordan and bird's but he would rank third of that group. I think magic, bird and Jordan win in six games.

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          • Master Live 013
            Hall Of Fame
            • Oct 2013
            • 12425

            #305
            Re: ESPN Top 100 list

            The first thing that grabs my attention is that horrible Kareem/Hakeem, Shaq & Duncan clog at the top. It makes me cringe.

            If we are taking prime then I guess that means 2000 Shaq (27 years old) at about at least 280 pounds. Hakeem would need to guard him but it would be so hard, Shaq is the single most dominant force I have seen while I have been alive.

            No 3 point shooter in LeBron's team, that's big in my mind. Bird would be jacking up at least 7 3's per game in that series (could go up to 10 or 12).

            My guess is MJ's team would want to pick up the pace to get Shaq tired running up and down (I think MJ's team could held its own athletically while still at a disadvantage).

            Bryant and Jordan basically cancel each other out (settle down).

            Would love to see Magic vs. LeBron.

            Not the best thing having Bird chasing Bron/Wade around.

            I guess I would say team 1 would win a series in 6 or 7.

            This is all hypothetical of course but it would be highly interesting to see who would coach each team if you restrict things to "only coaches who coached one of the players during their career".

            Team MJ has Riley and Phil. LBJ's has Phil, Pop and Spo. Would MJ's team accept a more "modern" style of scheme? I think they would, MJ would do anything to win (all of them would, but MJ seems almost psychotic).

            This is the kind of simulation that I I loved doing with NBA Live with the 80's, 90's teams. Always had to create Kareem (didn't understood why he was never in the game) and always had fun deciding who would be included in the 2000's team (Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett). Starting Garnett at the 3
            OSHA Inspector for the NBA.

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            • ojandpizza
              Hall Of Fame
              • Apr 2011
              • 29807

              #306
              Re: ESPN Top 100 list

              Originally posted by AlexBrady
              An interesting matchup to ponder and I agree with you that the teams don't necessarily fit from a stylistic standpoint. Wade's outside shooting isn't quite good enough to really torch magic's poor defense which would allow him to play wade soft. Wade and LeBRon have the same exact game plan and both are ill suited to being facilating points. Kobe was a tad worse than Mj in every category and would likely stall the offense in an attempt to 'outdo' Jordan. Bir could compensate for his poor defense by passing, rebounding and hitting treys. The big matchups are basically a wash. Magic, bird, and Jordan could synchronize their games with their bigs better than lebron and wade could. Only Kobe's perimeter shooting can match Jordan and bird's but he would rank third of that group. I think magic, bird and Jordan win in six games.
              Just saying it out loud that a team with Jordan, Magic, and Bird on it would lose a game sounds wrong, and I've been on record saying I personally believe Kareem could be my "if you had to pick ONE" GOAT choice. Just don't love the match-up.

              I don't think giving an "at his best" Wade some cushion works. He couldn't shoot and everyone knew that and he was still blowing past much quicker players than someone like Magic.

              Shaq's just too dominant at his peak years. There was no answer for him and wouldn't be here.

              I think Duncan is far too disciplined of a defender to get Robinson'd by Hakeem and I think in general Hakeem's dump the ball to me 40 times a game takes away from every other player on that team, especially since Duncan wouldn't require a double. Duncan however fits rosters like this arguably better than anyone else in the graphic.

              I don't think there is an answer for LeBron here. "At his best" being key as Miami LeBron was shooting as well as Bird from deep, as good of a defender as any perimeter guy in the picture, too quick for Magic or Larry, top team would be better off with Pippen for this match-up IMO.

              I'd give Jordan a bigger edge over Kobe than you would even, but versatility wins here. Bottom team has 3 guys who could switch on MJ, making his traditional come off a screen and catch the ball in my spot all the more difficult. Top team couldn't switch anything.. Even Duncan could switch spots 3-4.

              I could easily see Kobe trying to "outdo" Jordan being an issue though. We caught enough glimpses of that when he was just a kid.

              If I could suggest a switch, swap Wade with KD and move Bron to the 1 to match with Magic. Gives the bottom team more length, shooting, and spacing, but probably creates a more even playing field than Wade just "flashing" his way past everyone on the top team.

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              • Master Live 013
                Hall Of Fame
                • Oct 2013
                • 12425

                #307
                Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                lol "if I could suggest a switch" sure, and I would like to suggest switching my car with a Ferrari
                OSHA Inspector for the NBA.

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                • ojandpizza
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 29807

                  #308
                  Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                  Originally posted by Master Live 013
                  The first thing that grabs my attention is that horrible Kareem/Hakeem, Shaq & Duncan clog at the top. It makes me cringe.

                  If we are taking prime then I guess that means 2000 Shaq (27 years old) at about at least 280 pounds. Hakeem would need to guard him but it would be so hard, Shaq is the single most dominant force I have seen while I have been alive.

                  No 3 point shooter in LeBron's team, that's big in my mind. Bird would be jacking up at least 7 3's per game in that series (could go up to 10 or 12).

                  My guess is MJ's team would want to pick up the pace to get Shaq tired running up and down (I think MJ's team could held its own athletically while still at a disadvantage).

                  Bryant and Jordan basically cancel each other out (settle down).

                  Would love to see Magic vs. LeBron.

                  Not the best thing having Bird chasing Bron/Wade around.

                  I guess I would say team 1 would win a series in 6 or 7.

                  This is all hypothetical of course but it would be highly interesting to see who would coach each team if you restrict things to "only coaches who coached one of the players during their career".

                  Team MJ has Riley and Phil. LBJ's has Phil, Pop and Spo. Would MJ's team accept a more "modern" style of scheme? I think they would, MJ would do anything to win (all of them would, but MJ seems almost psychotic).

                  This is the kind of simulation that I I loved doing with NBA Live with the 80's, 90's teams. Always had to create Kareem (didn't understood why he was never in the game) and always had fun deciding who would be included in the 2000's team (Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett). Starting Garnett at the 3
                  It gets a bit harder when you add things like "Bird would shoot 7 threes a game" because that REALLY adds to the hypothetical aspect because he was never that type of player. His career year in attempts from 3 is only 3.3, and even then purposely taking three pointers was so far out of the picture that often those attempts were wide open, or when he was blistering hot.. Players just didn't attempt threes like that and it wasn't really part of Bird's game.

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                  • dubcity
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • May 2012
                    • 17874

                    #309
                    Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                    Would be dumb to have those teams play each other, and be like, "well, obviously y'all need to play 2020 style basketball." That wouldn't and shouldn't happen.

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                    • AlexBrady
                      MVP
                      • Jul 2008
                      • 3341

                      #310
                      Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                      Originally posted by ojandpizza
                      Just saying it out loud that a team with Jordan, Magic, and Bird on it would lose a game sounds wrong, and I've been on record saying I personally believe Kareem could be my "if you had to pick ONE" GOAT choice. Just don't love the match-up.

                      I don't think giving an "at his best" Wade some cushion works. He couldn't shoot and everyone knew that and he was still blowing past much quicker players than someone like Magic.

                      Shaq's just too dominant at his peak years. There was no answer for him and wouldn't be here.

                      I think Duncan is far too disciplined of a defender to get Robinson'd by Hakeem and I think in general Hakeem's dump the ball to me 40 times a game takes away from every other player on that team, especially since Duncan wouldn't require a double. Duncan however fits rosters like this arguably better than anyone else in the graphic.

                      I don't think there is an answer for LeBron here. "At his best" being key as Miami LeBron was shooting as well as Bird from deep, as good of a defender as any perimeter guy in the picture, too quick for Magic or Larry, top team would be better off with Pippen for this match-up IMO.

                      I'd give Jordan a bigger edge over Kobe than you would even, but versatility wins here. Bottom team has 3 guys who could switch on MJ, making his traditional come off a screen and catch the ball in my spot all the more difficult. Top team couldn't switch anything.. Even Duncan could switch spots 3-4.

                      I could easily see Kobe trying to "outdo" Jordan being an issue though. We caught enough glimpses of that when he was just a kid.

                      If I could suggest a switch, swap Wade with KD and move Bron to the 1 to match with Magic. Gives the bottom team more length, shooting, and spacing, but probably creates a more even playing field than Wade just "flashing" his way past everyone on the top team.
                      With Shaq parked in the paint Wades penetration opportunities would be curtailed so he would be forced to rely on his erratic jumper.
                      Shaq couldn't be stopped by Kareem but would still cede as many points to him as he himself scored. That's a wash. Duncan's man to man defense is vastly overrated but Hakeem wouldn't be granted many face up touches anyways. He would be on the receiving end of rim runs and an occasional screen/roll. Duncan cannot hope to keep up with Hakeem. Shaq's presence would prevent Lebron from blasting into the paint at will and he would be forced to shoot more jumpers than he desires. From beyond 15 feet in his Miami days he was a sub 40 percent guy. That is pitiful. His man to man defense was vastly overrated as he couldn't cope with jet-setters like Westbrook and Durant. Jordan would leave him in the dust. I see team one using power triangle sets with magic dumping into Kareem, cutting through the middle and getting new options off of that initial action. the players on team one complement each other better. They had a better understanding of five man basketball. Team 2 would be scrambling too much on defense because Kareem would be five feet from the rim time and again. Shaq isn't going to beat him down court to push Kareem out.

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                      • Master Live 013
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Oct 2013
                        • 12425

                        #311
                        Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                        Well, when I do these "exercises" I always "transport" them to the current era. That doesn't mean they would change their style of play but it also doesn't preclude it either. I mean, these are highly competitive individuals, if they learned something new they could incorporate to their games that would give them an edge I'm sure most of them would.

                        When I do this same exercise in baseball I wouldn't expect Cy Young to start throwing complete games left and right, he would need to adjust, his manager would make him adjust, he wouldn't play or he would try to play like he used to and lose more than he used too (not the best example really, not sure Young's stuff would play in today's day and age).

                        When imagine these kind of scenario I think someone inventing a time machine and bringing back players. But in baseball's case some wouldn't come and play because they are/were racist ****s and others wouldn't do it because they would felt it was insulting to think that all you wanted them for was to play a "game" plus didn't thought about the implications of them having to play now while their loves one were dead (do we bring the families too? ).
                        Last edited by Master Live 013; 04-03-2020, 06:37 PM.
                        OSHA Inspector for the NBA.

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                        • ojandpizza
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Apr 2011
                          • 29807

                          #312
                          Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                          Originally posted by AlexBrady
                          With Shaq parked in the paint Wades penetration opportunities would be curtailed so he would be forced to rely on his erratic jumper.
                          This wasn’t true from when they played together, and a more mobile, youthful Shaq would have made the duo even more deadly.

                          . Duncan's man to man defense is vastly overrated
                          Based on what? This is a joke.

                          From beyond 15 feet in his Miami days he was a sub 40 percent guy. That is pitiful. His man to man defense was vastly overrated as he couldn't cope with jet-setters like Westbrook and Durant. Jordan would leave him in the dust.
                          This isn’t true at all. 42% from 10-16 feet, 45% 16ft-3, 41% from behind the three point line (even factoring in all his stupid heat-check 3s and random 30 foot bombs he takes) in the 12-13 NBA season. Per synergy that same season he ranked in the 96%tile in half court offense, 99% spot up shooting, 87% on all jump shots, 96% on all catch and shoots.. he was I think 3rd in the entire league on catch and shoot threes that year (per qualifying attempts) I think behind Curry and Bells if I remember correctly.

                          This absolutely ridiculously underrates how good he was defensively at that time. Could have easily been DPOYY (finished 2nd) defended the likes of Rose, Parker, Pierce, George, KD, Kawhi, Butler, Deng, in those playoffs runs and regularly switched to whoever was hurting them as well as most players 1-4 sometimes even 5. How you’re ignoring plays like this after some of the stuff you’ve said about guys like Oscar is beyond me..













                          He was elite in passing lanes, elite in chase downs, and elite for a perimeter player in rim protection as well. I’ve spent enough time digging up stats in the past to further illustrate how good his defense was in some of those seasons (probably in this thread or the LeBron thread) and you tried to chalk most of it up to having Bosh behind him.. that’s true of even great defensive player/team and would be the same if not multiplied by having Duncan behind him. He also replicated that same All-Time level defense for one last time in the 2016 playoffs with Love in place of Bosh at that.


                          Shaq isn't going to beat him down court to push Kareem out.
                          Definitely agree with this


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                          • AlexBrady
                            MVP
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 3341

                            #313
                            Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                            Originally posted by ojandpizza
                            This wasn’t true from when they played together, and a more mobile, youthful Shaq would have made the duo even more deadly.



                            Based on what? This is a joke.



                            This isn’t true at all. 42% from 10-16 feet, 45% 16ft-3, 41% from behind the three point line (even factoring in all his stupid heat-check 3s and random 30 foot bombs he takes) in the 12-13 NBA season. Per synergy that same season he ranked in the 96%tile in half court offense, 99% spot up shooting, 87% on all jump shots, 96% on all catch and shoots.. he was I think 3rd in the entire league on catch and shoot threes that year (per qualifying attempts) I think behind Curry and Bells if I remember correctly.

                            This absolutely ridiculously underrates how good he was defensively at that time. Could have easily been DPOYY (finished 2nd) defended the likes of Rose, Parker, Pierce, George, KD, Kawhi, Butler, Deng, in those playoffs runs and regularly switched to whoever was hurting them as well as most players 1-4 sometimes even 5. How you’re ignoring plays like this after some of the stuff you’ve said about guys like Oscar is beyond me..













                            He was elite in passing lanes, elite in chase downs, and elite for a perimeter player in rim protection as well. I’ve spent enough time digging up stats in the past to further illustrate how good his defense was in some of those seasons (probably in this thread or the LeBron thread) and you tried to chalk most of it up to having Bosh behind him.. that’s true of even great defensive player/team and would be the same if not multiplied by having Duncan behind him. He also replicated that same All-Time level defense for one last time in the 2016 playoffs with Love in place of Bosh at that.




                            Definitely agree with this


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                            Remember that wade was the man in Miami when the clock was running low and they needed a shot so he got lots of touches. How would he react to getting fewer handles with this dream setup? Sorry, but I was referring more to the 11-12 season where I thought lebron played his best ball. His shooting beyond 15 feet was indeed sub 40. lebron did well against guys like pierce and deng playing deny defense but couldn't contain guys like rose, Durant, and Westbrook. Of course the defensive rotations behind him were mostly flawless so it got glossed over. There is no doubting that lebron hustles in transition and plays excellent team defense but you said that lebron could switch and play outstanding contain defense against a guy like Jordan. That simply is not true, his lateral movement at 250 pounds is not quick enough. In regards to Duncan's individual defense his lateral movement was a mite slow and the ball could be taken to his chest which would negate his reach.
                            Last edited by AlexBrady; 04-03-2020, 08:26 PM.

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                            • ojandpizza
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Apr 2011
                              • 29807

                              #314
                              Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                              Originally posted by AlexBrady
                              Remember that wade was the man in Miami when the clock was running low and they needed a shot so he got lots of touches. How would he react to getting fewer handles with this dream setup?
                              Honestly I think this is a fair question of anybody in this graphic.

                              but you said that lebron could switch and play outstanding contain defense against a guy like Jordan. That simply is not true, his lateral movement at 250 pounds is not quick enough. In regards to Duncan's individual defense his lateral movement was a mite slow and the ball could be taken to his chest which would negate his reach.
                              I don’t think anybody is shutting Jordan down, but I think LeBron can easily have possessions where he switches to him and is fine. He’s got the length and stretch to make things difficult for anybody, we’ve seen that for years even in his youth on Kobe, that doesn’t mean he’s switching to MJ and locking him down. I was more so speaking from the other sides point it view. A large part of Jordan’s success was predicated on coming off screens with his man trailing and catching the ball where he wanted it. It’s harder to do that when you have 3 guys who can switch those screens. He’s not just going to automatically get to his spot every time with ease like the Bulls offense was accustomed to doing.

                              My point was more so that all 3 of Wade, Kobe, Bron can switch any 3 of those guys when needed. All 3 a tough matchup, makes it harder to get to your spots when you can switch and deny and not always be caught trailing behind a screen. Bron’s lateral quickness was the weakest link in his defense. He did a adequate job of negating a lot of that with strength and length. Depending on how refs are officiating and how much contact he’s allowed we’ve saw plenty of times even losing to a quick first step he’s a problem to turn the corner on.

                              Obviously out of the 3 you would want Kobe or Wade on Jordan before you would LeBron. You wouldn’t willingly give up the quickness advantage. Just like the other side wouldn’t stick Jordan on LeBron when you have bigger bodies to throw at him. That doesn’t mean that if Bron were to switch on MJ or MJ to Bron that either of them are going to have it easy, especially in a game like this one would hypothetically be.


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                              • AlexBrady
                                MVP
                                • Jul 2008
                                • 3341

                                #315
                                Re: ESPN Top 100 list

                                Originally posted by ojandpizza
                                Honestly I think this is a fair question of anybody in this graphic.



                                I don’t think anybody is shutting Jordan down, but I think LeBron can easily have possessions where he switches to him and is fine. He’s got the length and stretch to make things difficult for anybody, we’ve seen that for years even in his youth on Kobe, that doesn’t mean he’s switching to MJ and locking him down. I was more so speaking from the other sides point it view. A large part of Jordan’s success was predicated on coming off screens with his man trailing and catching the ball where he wanted it. It’s harder to do that when you have 3 guys who can switch those screens. He’s not just going to automatically get to his spot every time with ease like the Bulls offense was accustomed to doing.

                                My point was more so that all 3 of Wade, Kobe, Bron can switch any 3 of those guys when needed. All 3 a tough matchup, makes it harder to get to your spots when you can switch and deny and not always be caught trailing behind a screen. Bron’s lateral quickness was the weakest link in his defense. He did a adequate job of negating a lot of that with strength and length. Depending on how refs are officiating and how much contact he’s allowed we’ve saw plenty of times even losing to a quick first step he’s a problem to turn the corner on.

                                Obviously out of the 3 you would want Kobe or Wade on Jordan before you would LeBron. You wouldn’t willingly give up the quickness advantage. Just like the other side wouldn’t stick Jordan on LeBron when you have bigger bodies to throw at him. That doesn’t mean that if Bron were to switch on MJ or MJ to Bron that either of them are going to have it easy, especially in a game like this one would hypothetically be.


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                                Thing is though that Mj was many times playing off an out pass from a guy like luc longley whose bulk enabled him to get such good position that it forced the defense to stretch itself and Jordan could play off of that with the defense compromised. That's what I would anticipate when Jordan is playing with Kareem. Lebron might have to squeeze down on Kareem and then recover and Jordan could exploit that.

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