Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Well Jordan doesn't have the highest single season ORTG, or even the highest by a guard, so why would you compare them in the first place?

[AlexBrady]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

The problem with any statistical comparisons across eras is that the rules have changed too much. Jordan could be bumped on his off-ball patterns and hand-checked for profit. Without these measures, he would have averaged over 40 points per game.

A better stylistic comparison for Curry, I feel, is Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. Curry is better, of course, but their games were similar. Alex English was a small forward and scored his points on the run and on baseline jumpers. He never ventured out to the three-point arc.

[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

The problem with any statistical comparisons across eras is that the rules have changed too much. Jordan could be bumped on his off-ball patterns and hand-checked for profit. Without these measures, he would have averaged over 40 points per game.

A better stylistic comparison for Curry, I feel, is Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. Curry is better, of course, but their games were similar. Alex English was a small forward and scored his points on the run and on baseline jumpers. He never ventured out to the three-point arc.

This is spot on, and I think a lot of people tend to overlook rule changes, especially when it comes to comparing a player of past generations to how the game is now with all the rule changes. Same goes for the NFL for that matter, both NBA and NFL have changed rules to make a more offensive game, and in the NFL's case handicap the defense.

There are a lot of guys now days in the NBA that would not put up as big a stat line if they played back when you could hand check, and the game was overall a lot more physical. Some guys of previous era's would have excelled more so in todays game, and in some case excelled even more so than they did during their playing days.

[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

This is spot on, and I think a lot of people tend to overlook rule changes, especially when it comes to comparing a player of past generations to how the game is now with all the rule changes. Same goes for the NFL for that matter, both NBA and NFL have changed rules to make a more offensive game, and in the NFL's case handicap the defense.

There are a lot of guys now days in the NBA that would not put up as big a stat line if they played back when you could hand check, and the game was overall a lot more physical. Some guys of previous era's would have excelled more so in todays game, and in some case excelled even more so than they did during their playing days.

Any advantage gained by no hand checking would be more than off set by the lack of illegal defense penalties. Old school players didn't have to deal with hybrid zone defense and overloaded strong sides.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

And the faster pace which yields more points, rebounds, assists when each team is taking 15+ more shots per game than now.. but it's ignored in these debates.

Regardless there absolutely, no was possible for us to know how any player would play against any other competition or rule set. No mention that decent midrange shooters absolutely destroyed the 80's. Guys like Tripuka, Vandeweigh, etc could drop nearly 30 a night just by knocking down wide open mid range jumpers.. Today's stretch 4's would kill that era, and someone like Curry who can shoot that well from 30 feet during an era where you didn't even put emphasis on defending those shots would do just fine as well.


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[fluent2332]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Regardless there absolutely, no was possible for us to know how any player would play against any other competition or rule set.

You say this then proceed to compare players against older rule sets, lol.

The thing is, IMO you can't just transpose a player from one era into another era. Curry would not have existed in the '80s because it was a different time. Today's stretch 4 is not the same as a shooting big back then.

How a player develops into who they are also heavily matters on who came before them, both players and coaches, and a boat load of other factors.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Any advantage gained by no hand checking would be more than off set by the lack of illegal defense penalties. Old school players didn't have to deal with hybrid zone defense and overloaded strong sides.

This is always ignored too. It's no coincidence that pace in recent years is at an all time low. That teams eat the majority of their shot clock now. Those quick easy buckets at the rim, curling jumpers in the lane, those looks are minimal now. As offensive minded as the rules may have intended to be they were offset by the defensive changes quickly enough.

People just can't fathom the idea that basketball now can be anything but worse than it was then.. The same people watching in the 60's said it then, and in another 15-20 years there will be another generation doing it again.


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[fluent2332]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

People just can't fathom the idea that basketball now can be anything but worse than it was then.. The same people watching in the 60's said it then, and in another 15-20 years there will be another generation doing it again.

I don't see why people have to make it a better/worse thing. I just accept that things were different in the past than they are today.

Classical music from the 1700's is not "worse" than today's music, it's just different. Things evolve and change.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

You say this then proceed to compare players against older rule sets, lol.



.

I typically don't go as far as saying someone could or couldn't play in another era though. Unless I've watched them play, or seen enough of them to believe their game wouldn't transcend. I've never gone as far as discrediting someone Iike Wilt or Big-O, but I have stated that playing today Wilt wouldn't have his monster 50&30 season, Big-O wouldn't average a 30ppg triple double, and that's partly what those guys are propped up for to begin with. Today's game doesn't allow for those types of statistical outputs.

It's not my fault that some people aren't aware of just how much of a difference playing at that much of an unstructured pace can influence numbers. Someone like Westbrook will likely never average a triple double, and therefor likely won't ever be remembered as anything close to the ranking of someone like Big-O. However, his output for this era is actually better in comparison to what Big-O was doing then. I'm not saying he's the better player, so you don't have to give scouting reports AB, I'm just saying it's always ignored.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I don't see why people have to make it a better/worse thing. I just accept that things were different in the past than they are today.



Classical music from the 1700's is not "worse" than today's music, it's just different. Things evolve and change.

This is true to an extent, but for hypothetical purposes if we could stick Bob Cousy and Steph Curry in a gym together with a time machine and made them play 1 on 1 who's winning that battle? Curry will be doing things that Cousy couldn't possibly even know how to defend, and take shots that he's likely never seen outside of a HORSE game. Meanwhile Curry will likely be wondering why he's stuck in a gym playing a man who can hardly use his off hand and doesn't even jump to shoot. Basketball evolves, but at the same time it's still the same sport. So certain aspects, many aspects actually, it can improve. And like you said the more modern we get the more players have to learn from. You can't really compare classical music to making beats in a studio because it's not even the same thing.


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[fluent2332]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Hypothetical stuff like that doesn't really work for me. If Bob Cousy was in his prime today he'd be a great player and play differently because he'd be in a different time. Guys like Cousy are the reason many players play a certain way today. They were the best players of their day and would have the brain and ability to adapt, imo.

[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Any advantage gained by no hand checking would be more than off set by the lack of illegal defense penalties. Old school players didn't have to deal with hybrid zone defense and overloaded strong sides.

I dont think so, but its not just the handchecking, that would impact some of todays players, but also the physical play, that even more so imo. While yes back in the day it was illegal to play zone defense, teams had a way of disquising it and getting away with it to a extent, but you have to remember there wasnt Defensive 3 seconds either, so defenders still clog the paint, and why you saw a lot of mid range shots. Today the midrange game is all but gone, and why I wish they would move the 3pt line back atleast a ft, preferably 2ft imo.

Sure there are some guys that play in todays game that would excel in any of the era's, and quite frankly there are some guys from previous era that wouldnt do as well in todays game. Obviously if you can shoot from the perimeter your game will play in any era.

[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

And the faster pace which yields more points, rebounds, assists when each team is taking 15+ more shots per game than now.. but it's ignored in these debates.

Regardless there absolutely, no was possible for us to know how any player would play against any other competition or rule set. No mention that decent midrange shooters absolutely destroyed the 80's. Guys like Tripuka, Vandeweigh, etc could drop nearly 30 a night just by knocking down wide open mid range jumpers.. Today's stretch 4's would kill that era, and someone like Curry who can shoot that well from 30 feet during an era where you didn't even put emphasis on defending those shots would do just fine as well.


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You do realize back in the 60's teams were getting up more shots per game than they do now right? This fastbreak basketball that we see the Warriors play, or how the Nash led Suns played isnt really anything new, other than shooting 3's, and the NBA didnt have the 3pt line till the 79 season. Granted Defense back then wasnt nearly as sophisticated as it became in later years, but neither was those players offensive skills, as far as ball handling goes. Although if they called palming the ball the way it should be called then some of these guys wouldnt be doing what they are doing today either,lol.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

You do realize back in the 60's teams were getting up more shots per game than they do now right? .

That's what I said?


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[ojandpizza]

Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Hypothetical stuff like that doesn't really work for me. If Bob Cousy was in his prime today he'd be a great player and play differently because he'd be in a different time. Guys like Cousy are the reason many players play a certain way today. They were the best players of their day and would have the brain and ability to adapt, imo.

But my version isn't even nearly as hypothetical as yours. That version of Bob Cousy you're describing never existed. That's as hypothetical as it gets.

If Bob Cousy were playing today, and he had that extra 40 years of basketball to learn from in today's world he would be a completely different player now than he was then. That's creating a Bob Cousy that never existed, my version is a Bob Cousy that did exist. All these "well if so and so had modern doctors, equipment, blah, blah" it's all true, but it's irrelevant because they in fact didn't.

It creates an unfair advantage to players now, but that's the point of progression and development.


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