Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

[Mr.Ace]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I think NBA players today are missing out on the grooming that colleges did give them... I wish they would get rid of the age rule and commit to a true minor league.

[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Oscar Robertson did average a triple double and it was totally legitimate under any circumstances. He had every basketball skill at the highest level. Wilt Chamberlain was 7'1'' and 300 pounds and defenses could only play one on one in the post, no surprise then that he averaged 50 plus points a game.

The league back then was focused on running, quick ball and man movement which is why more points and field goals were attempted. It was not a primitive era. Russell Westbrook with his gratuitous dribblings would not be a good fit here.

Oscar Robertson was the finest guard who ever breathed. He had every conceivable skill and weighed a monstrous 220 pounds at 6'5''. Oscar had played out his full college career at Cincinatti and had gotten the invaluable apprenticeship every player needs. By his triple double year he was a 23 year old grown man who totally understood every nuance of the game.

Walt Bellamy also played out his full college career at Indiana. That is four years of learning the game, invaluable. By 61-62 Bellamy was 22 years old. Height and weight? 6'11'' and 265 pounds. He could nail foul line jumpers or play blast ball in the low post. Incredibly strong, no surprise then that he pulled down 19 rebounds per game.

6'5'' and pulling down 18 rebounds a night? Are you talking about Johnny Green? Closer to 6'7'' actually and weighing about 230 pounds. Explosive off the floorboards and great hands. No wonder he pulled down a man sized helping of caroms.

Yes, The Big O's game would have played in any era. I use to make the argument early in MJ's career to all of his fanboys that the Big O was the GOAT, because he did it all, not only give you close to 30 a night, but give you 10+ assist and 10+ rebounds too.

Dont think Wilt gets the due credit he deserves either for what he accomplished. Again in this case people put to much emphasis on rings, and since him being a big man and during the Russell Celtic teams that won so much, he dont get the credit he should get for being a beast. He was Shaq before Shaq was ever born, except I would say Wilt was better, but I was just a baby when Wilt retired, so I only know from what I read and the little bit of film thats out there, where as I saw all of Shaq's career, so probably not fair to compare if you didnt see both players play in their day to say which was better, and I have a little bias because Shaq terrorized my Pacers and Rik Smits,lol.

[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I think NBA players today are missing out on the grooming that colleges did give them... I wish they would get rid of the age rule and commit to a true minor league.

I agree, dont like the rules that in place now, but wasnt a big fan either of how the league was going with drafting all these kids right out of high school either, that needed to improve on the basic skills of the game, when there wasnt a age limit.

In some ways I like how MLB is, if you go to college you have to wait 3 years, but you can enter the draft right out of college, but there again you get teams drafting kids that need to mature both on and off the court.

A true minor leagues for the NBA with no age limit is really the way to go imo. Because I dont believe in a kid that can be drafted into the service if there we were to ever have another all out war where we needed a draft, but yet that same kid isnt able to make a lot of money right out HS.

D-League is growing, so maybe 1 day fairly soon we will see a change to this age limit an go back to not having a age limit, or have it like MLB is atleast. Not every kid is cut out for college, and shouldnt have to go either to realize his dream. A good example was D Rose, the kid wasnt cut out for college, and they had to cheat to even get him into college, when reality is he shouldnt have had to go for a year so he could get drafted. Yes I know you can go over seas for a year like Brandon Jennings, but lets be honest, most American kids dont want to have to go that route just because they dont want to go to college, or they arent cut out for college.

[Mr.Ace]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Make every team have an affiliate, expand the draft to 4 or 5 rounds again... make the first two rounds guaranteed contracts. Let it be known that it should be rare for an 17/18 year old to be on the opening day roster and see what happens..

[wwharton]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

OJ I used to enjoy reading your long winded posts, even when I knew they were a drawn out explanation to back your boy. You jumped the shark here my friend. You don't have to single King out, I watched MJ's entire career... many of us around here did. He had as many haters as LBJ has now. Nobody acts like he can do no wrong, but I see how you tried to group him with world class chuckers like Kobe and AI when his FG% hovered around 50% his entire career.

We haven't forgotten Jordan's failures at all. Nobody has to say he did no wrong to say pump the brakes when claiming James is now the GOAT. You can write a post as long as War and Peace and that won't change the fact.

Bottom line is this was a thread about Jordan that has yet again been turned into a comparison conversation with James, with you leading the charge. At least admit your transparency.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

My original post that garnered so much attention didn't even have LeBron's name in it, didn't have anything about him in it. I'm not even the one who brought up LeBron to begin with. Pack responded with "How y'all gonna let this slide tho?" A couple pages after my post and it took from there.

And you know I'm not lumping him with Kobe and AI. You've been around long enough to see how highly I think of Jordan and lowly of Kobe compared to many. Not labeling him a chunker at all.

Y'all can tell me to pump the breaks about whatever you want, I'm on the same page as you anyways in calling MJ the GOAT. I haven't claimed otherwise here, but if someone says something that I disagree with I'll post my position. Just as you are right now.


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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Pack responded with "How y'all gonna let this slide tho?" A couple pages after my post and it took from there.

Because there were inaccurate things being said.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I think y'all are missing the point of what I'm really trying to post anyways. Never did I say he didn't have haters, never did I say he didn't get backlash then, for the Pistons, gambling, being a ball hog early on, defense, baseball, retiring, etc..

Never did I even say "well King and wwharton forgot everything negative about him", it's like you're both taking it personal that I'm lumping you into some category.

My posts and this entire topic is about RIGHT NOW. How he's viewed right now. Obviously I can't put my thoughts into words well enough for my point to come across correctly.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Because there were inaccurate things being said.

Inaccurate as in what? My opening line said "I believe", I didn't realize and opinionated post could be written off as false information.


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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Inaccurate as in what?

1.

He's a tall tale that keeps growing, he's incomparable, an untouchable legend who at this point has grown so large that the representation of him is more of a myth than an athlete.

2.

MJ wasn't looked at during his playing time or immediately following his retirement the same way he is now.

3.

I think his name now is bigger than what it was when he was actually playing.

4.

My original post that garnered so much attention didn't even have LeBron's name in it, didn't have anything about him in it. I'm not even the one who brought up LeBron to begin with.

But it did though. This is how we got to this point, lol.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

The problem to me was the Posnanski article quoted with Babe and Earl Campbell. It boils down to Jordan being accepted as the best because people who grew up watching him refuse to accept anything else...

Well I didn't grow up watching him and I think he's the GOAT... So is that imagination? No its statistics, it's resume, it's the praise he got from his contemporaries. He says the Jordan argument is based on emotion...well I hate him, he's the reason my team was empty in the 90's, but if you ask me who the best basketball player of all time is I can unemotionally link you to the Legacy section of his Wikipedia page and you can read it there. Maybe it's because of the way I felt he disregarded Babe Ruth's statistics, but I came away from that article thinking "This is just someone who won't let any argument slide". He can't be trusted saying Earl was the best because he saw him too young, Babe can't be because he has unreal statistics that apparently mean whatever we want them to. That is just asinine. What is the basis for determining the GOAT?

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

The problem to me was the Posnanski article quoted with Babe and Earl Campbell. It boils down to Jordan being accepted as the best because people who grew up watching him refuse to accept anything else...

Well I didn't grow up watching him and I think he's the GOAT... So is that imagination? No its statistics, it's resume, it's the praise he got from his contemporaries. He says the Jordan argument is based on emotion...well I hate him, he's the reason my team was empty in the 90's, but if you ask me who the best basketball player of all time is I can unemotionally link you to the Legacy section of his Wikipedia page and you can read it there. Maybe it's because of the way I felt he disregarded Babe Ruth's statistics, but I came away from that article thinking "This is just someone who won't let any argument slide". He can't be trusted saying Earl was the best because he saw him too young, Babe can't be because he has unreal statistics that apparently mean whatever we want them to. That is just asinine. What is the basis for determining the GOAT?

Yeah the article in general isn't great, he's basically doing the exact same thing he's blaming others for doing, only in a different way. He's basically saying they won't allow any other view or side argument, which is exactly what he is doing in the reverse lol.

I just thought the part I quoted is something I see and hear a lot of, and also why I only posted that piece and didn't post the link to a crappy article.

As for "What is the basis for determining the GOAT", well that's why we have these arguments lol. There isn't one.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Jordan being accepted as the best because people who grew up watching him refuse to accept anything else...

Well I didn't grow up watching him and I think he's the GOAT...

Not at all, just like I said about King and wwharton though just because you aren't in that category doesn't mean their isn't a wide-spread group who are. How many people did we see who grew up watching Kobe quickly claim him as a better MJ, how many people did we see do the same with Curry this year after just one season to even justify him belonging in "elite" territory.

It happens all the time. And maybe because I'm not old enough to grow up watching Russell, Kareem, Magic, I don't hear it about them. But to say people don't have those kind of reactions in regards to MJ would be false, because I see it all the time. A guy I work with after the finals literally claimed that because Curry missed his last shot, and Kyrie made theirs rather than LeBron, that there just aren't any great players in today's NBA. Why, because "Jordan and Kobe would have went and scored".

OS is not the norm for basketball talk, it's actually rare to have discussions that are actually this logical and limited as far as emotional bias. But people make emotional rationalizations when it comes to sports, whether or not there is any sort of legitimate backing to them. Just because it might not be the norm on this forum, it is definitely the standard for the majority of people.. Sadly even the likes of ESPN, and of course Walt Frazier lol.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Can't help but notice Kobe and Steph are your examples and nothing about LeBron's stans who do the same thing is mentioned.

You get upset because people shut down the LeBron stat posting you do because we know where it's headed. Nobody here or anywhere that I can think of poo pooed Russell Westbrook going ape**** while KD was out a couple years ago because nobody was laying out every good performance he had against Michael's.

ESPN has drilled this compare everything drivel into people's heads so much that they can't just watch greatness happening in front of them without trying to rank it the second it happens or try to sneak make an argument for why this person is better when they don't add up in virtually every other area. You get shut down with your LeBron stats because it comes off like you want LeBron to mentioned as the greatest so bad that whatever ridiculous, out of context, irrelevant stat that comes up it seems like you try to push it just to say he's better than MJ at SOMETHING even if Jordan surpasses him a hundred other ways.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Can't help but notice Kobe and Steph are your examples and nothing about LeBron's stans who do the same thing is mentioned.

You get upset because people shut down the LeBron stat posting you do because we know where it's headed. Nobody here or anywhere that I can think of poo pooed Russell Westbrook going ape**** while KD was out a couple years ago because nobody was laying out every good performance he had against Michael's.

ESPN has drilled this compare everything drivel into people's heads so much that they can't just watch greatness happening in front of them without trying to rank it the second it happens or try to sneak make an argument for why this person is better when they don't add up in virtually every other area. You get shut down with your LeBron stats because it comes off like you want LeBron to mentioned as the greatest so bad that whatever ridiculous, out of context, irrelevant stat that comes up it seems like you try to push it just to say he's better than MJ at SOMETHING even if Jordan surpasses him a hundred other ways.


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I didn't post a LeBron stat to talk about LeBron being mistreated or whatever you keep posting King, I posted it because someone said that he didn't belong in the discussion with these guys. I just posted that his performances in the playoffs are comparable with Jordan's and only Jordan's, if you look at the rest of the post you'll see it has nothing at all to do with the rest of this discussion.. IDK how you are confusing the two. Or just not reading the post for more than a glance, because that clearly seems to be what it is.

I said I believed it was "13" or whatever his name is now that was complaining about Westbrook and his usage being the only reason he was doing what he was doing. He was also the same one to point to the Jordan stretch of 10 games to justify Bird, LeBron, or anyone not being a better play maker. I remember him saying it, if you don't that's cool. you can do the digging for 3 years back to find the quotes.


Who shut down a LeBron stat? Didn't see that. And where have I pushed a claim that LeBron is better at SOMETHING? I don't know what you are referencing King? I haven't posted anything of the sort?

Jordan doesn't surpass him in 100 ways, or any other top 10 player ever in 100 ways. There isn't that sort of gap. And comments like that are the reason we are even having this discussion to begin with, and why I'm even referencing that Jordan's name now has become exaggerated with things in this context.