2017 Offseason Thread

[z Revis]

2017 Offseason Thread

You guys aren't really convincing me here. Pack you're gonna bring up the Heat who signed LeBron freaking James and just got a meeting from Hayward as a 39 win team or whatever they were last year? FA's obviously still want to play there. Just because they got outbid by another big market doesn't change things lol.

Paul George reportedly said part of the reason he wanted out is because he didn't believe he could get other top FA's to join him in Indy.

Either way I'm not gonna sit here and quote every post, but if you guys can't see that there's at least SOME advantage big markets AND/OR location(Miami) have then I don't know what to tell you. Go down the list of FA signings from each team's history and tell me you don't see a pattern? Maybe I'm the one not seeing it here.. when I have time or am bored I'll check that out sometime... I know damn well you aren't going to be seeing any Carmelo's or Haywards or LeBrons on the small markets though. Maybe a David West or Greg Monroe type.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[CMH]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

I get that, but I'd say Boston was on the way up regardless. Utah needed Hayward much more than Boston needed him. They're pretty much stuck now as another middling team. No star player is going to do them any favors and sign there... they're stuck hoping for a draft pick or one of their young guys to pan out before Gobert is 30 years old. And then whoever that player is is going to leave on them too lol.. rinse and repeat.

Either way it's not really that it's Boston. It's just the fact that he left and here we are again with another small market team left hanging.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

1. Seems to me that's a Organization issue. You got him for 8 years. Not his fault or the league's fault that his team decided to become a playoff team in his last year with them.

I'm glad Pack said this before I commented because it summarizes what I wanted this post to be about.

Utah should blame themselves for not having enough to entice Hayward. Really, any team should only blame themselves.

Utah's roster is what it is because of Utah. Remember that Boston didn't have enough to entice anyone until they made smart trades that gave Horford reason to trust in the franchise.

Golden State was a cesspool before it drafted their core and enticed Durant with their success and high championship dreams.

Since 2010, this is who Utah drafted in the first round:

2010 - Hayward

2011 - Kanter with the third pick. Career -0.2 VORP. Over guys like Tristan Thompson (5.0 VORP), Jonas Valanciunas (3.7), Kemba Walker and Klay Thompson.

2011 - Burke (-0.2) over the Morris twins (4.0+) and Kawhi Leonard.

2013 - Trey Burke (realy, Shabazz Muhammad but draft rights were traded) -0.9 VORP. And let's ignore that this was over guys like Giannis and Gorgi Dieng. They would have been better off taking Lucas Nogueira (2.3 VORP), Schroeder (-0.1), Tony Snell (-0.1) or Solomon Hill (2.4)

2013 - Traded for Gobert's draft rights (excellent move)

2014 - Dante Exum (-1.0).
They could have had Marcus Smart, Julius Randle (0.1), Elfrid Payton, LaVine, TJ Warren. Someone other than Exum would have been a better pick, honestly.

I'm not going to keep going because this is getting OJ levels long.

My point is, you take any random combination of players I listed above and Utah has a better team.

Want to attract better free agents, or keep your own: have to draft better. Utah has been really bad at drafting and has had really good draft position to do better.

[AlexBrady]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Nobody said nothing when LMA went to the Spurs. Now, all hell breaking loose over Gordon y'all funny.

I seem to remember Aldridge getting plenty of attention on the evening talk shows. A player can't scratch his butt without attracting media attention now.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Trey Burke wasn't a bad pick. I blame management for not developing him. #GoBlue

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[areobee401]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Scroll down to the 2nd newest post to witness the bet Jazz fan reaction you will find.

https://www.facebook.com/Flo2Flo.Basketball.News/?locale2=en_US

LMAO

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Are we really letting people clump Hayward's name with LeBron James and Melo (who others pointed out was a trade)?

I'm still failing to see what the panty-twist is from Hayward's dip into the FA pool other than "star player leaves team and I don't like it."

[NYJets]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

You guys aren't really convincing me here. Pack you're gonna bring up the Heat who signed LeBron freaking James and just got a meeting from Hayward as a 39 win team or whatever they were last year? FA's obviously still want to play there. Just because they got outbid by another big market doesn't change things lol.

Paul George reportedly said part of the reason he wanted out is because he didn't believe he could get other top FA's to join him in Indy.

Either way I'm not gonna sit here and quote every post, but if you guys can't see that there's at least SOME advantage big markets AND/OR location(Miami) have then I don't know what to tell you. Go down the list of FA signings from each team's history and tell me you don't see a pattern? Maybe I'm the one not seeing it here.. when I have time or am bored I'll check that out sometime... I know damn well you aren't going to be seeing any Carmelo's or Haywards or LeBrons on the small markets though. Maybe a David West or Greg Monroe type.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Some advantages? Sure. Enough that they should make drastic changes and put in a hard cap that basically punishes teams for drafting well? No. More people want to live in Miami than Indiana, that's just the way it is.


This was not some situation where a player left a great situation for a glamorous big city. Utah an attractive situation for Hayward, Boston built a better one.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Pack you're gonna bring up the Heat who signed LeBron freaking James and just got a meeting from Hayward as a 39 win team or whatever they were last year? FA's obviously still want to play there. Just because they got outbid by another big market doesn't change things lol.

Still missing the point.

Again, who have they signed if they're so attractive? ****ing Dallas gets interviews from top tier FAs too and who have they brought in? Don't worry I'll wait.

but if you guys can't see that there's at least SOME advantage big markets AND/OR location(Miami) have then I don't know what to tell you.

That's not a league problem or a "fairness" problem. I'll ask you this: How come FAs aren't flocking to Atlanta? Or DC? Or Philly? Or Houston? Or Phoenix? These are so called "big market" teams/attractive cities yet why aren't the names flocking there in FA?

I know damn well you aren't going to be seeing any Carmelo's or Haywards or LeBrons on the small markets though. Maybe a David West or Greg Monroe type.

Milsap just left Atlanta to go to Denver. I already mentioned how Monroe chose Milwaukee over New York, Portland and Los Angeles.

We've given you examples of no such bias holding weight. You just dismiss them when they don't go along with your argument, so yes it is just you.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Nobody said nothing when LMA went to the Spurs. Now, all hell breaking loose over Gordon y'all funny.

I mentioned that last night and of course I got hit with the Red "Oh....well that was different" LOL.

[z Revis]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

I'm glad Pack said this before I commented because it summarizes what I wanted this post to be about.

Utah should blame themselves for not having enough to entice Hayward. Really, any team should only blame themselves.

Utah's roster is what it is because of Utah. Remember that Boston didn't have enough to entice anyone until they made smart trades that gave Horford reason to trust in the franchise.

Golden State was a cesspool before it drafted their core and enticed Durant with their success and high championship dreams.

Since 2010, this is who Utah drafted in the first round:

2010 - Hayward

2011 - Kanter with the third pick. Career -0.2 VORP. Over guys like Tristan Thompson (5.0 VORP), Jonas Valanciunas (3.7), Kemba Walker and Klay Thompson.

2011 - Burke (-0.2) over the Morris twins (4.0+) and Kawhi Leonard.

2013 - Trey Burke (realy, Shabazz Muhammad but draft rights were traded) -0.9 VORP. And let's ignore that this was over guys like Giannis and Gorgi Dieng. They would have been better off taking Lucas Nogueira (2.3 VORP), Schroeder (-0.1), Tony Snell (-0.1) or Solomon Hill (2.4)

2013 - Traded for Gobert's draft rights (excellent move)

2014 - Dante Exum (-1.0).
They could have had Marcus Smart, Julius Randle (0.1), Elfrid Payton, LaVine, TJ Warren. Someone other than Exum would have been a better pick, honestly.

I'm not going to keep going because this is getting OJ levels long.

My point is, you take any random combination of players I listed above and Utah has a better team.

Want to attract better free agents, or keep your own: have to draft better. Utah has been really bad at drafting and has had really good draft position to do better.

This is the one argument I can agree with. But there is still the problem of owners not wanting to dip into the tax to keep a team together for some of these teams that bigger markets have no problem doing. Indy for example built their ECF teams with great draft picks and signing West/trading for Hill then lost Lance(who was a quality player at the time) because they didn't want to pay him more and go into the tax. They offered him all they could that kept them within the cap. Obviously that team fell apart for other reasons, but my point still stands there. They went into the next season with CJ freakin Miles as the starting 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

If Ted wants to win he'll spend the money. If he's serious about becoming a basketball city and surrounding Wall with talent like he deserves he'll spend the money.

He's got no choice now since he's paying Luxury Tax for the first time ever.

I wish him luck in trying to find the money over the next 2-3 years though with that cap situation.

Indy for example built their ECF teams with great draft picks and signing West/trading for Hill then lost Lance(who was a quality player at the time) because they didn't want to pay him more and go into the tax. They offered him all they could that kept them within the cap.

I'm confused.

So they didn't want to go into the luxury tax or they were up against the Hard Cap and literally could not spend anymore money?

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

He's got no choice now since he's paying Luxury Tax for the first time ever.

I wish him luck in trying to find the money over the next 2-3 years though with that cap situation.



I'm confused.

So they didn't want to go into the luxury tax or they were up against the Hard Cap and literally could not spend anymore money?

Hey man. That's Ernie's job not mine. If they can figure out a way to get Boogie or similar replacement for Gortat then they have won whatever trust they need from me.

That Mahimi contract is a bitch, though.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

The problem always come back to these small market owners wanting to cash in on profits instead of reinvesting in their teams while they tell their fans that the big bad league is just too expensive for them to survive in. If you can't afford to pay the tax, you shouldn't have a team in the league in the first place. If Indiana is too small a market to have a franchise survive, then get the team out of there. If the fans want new ownership, stop supporting the current ones. I just don't understand how these teams put themselves in this position and then their fans act like it's the leagues fault. I'm supposed to feel sorry for small market teams like we didn't know it was going to be hard to get a free agent in Oklahoma City? Doesn't make any sense.

[z Revis]

2017 Offseason Thread

Still missing the point.

Again, who have they signed if they're so attractive? ****ing Dallas gets interviews from top tier FAs too and who have they brought in? Don't worry I'll wait.


That's not a league problem or a "fairness" problem. I'll ask you this: How come FAs aren't flocking to Atlanta? Or DC? Or Philly? Or Houston? Or Phoenix? These are so called "big market" teams/attractive cities yet why aren't the names flocking there in FA?


Milsap just left Atlanta to go to Denver. I already mentioned how Monroe chose Milwaukee over New York, Portland and Los Angeles.

We've given you examples of no such bias holding weight. You just dismiss them when they don't go along with your argument, so yes it is just you.

Didn't CP3 push the Clippers FO to trade him to Houston? I hear what you're saying but winning still matters. Obviously no one is signing with the 20 something win 76ers until they're actually good.

And for every Monroe and Milsap signing, there's LeBron James and Bosh, there's Durant, there's Hayward, there's PG. So not sure how that disproves anything other than just saying "well non stars will sign with smaller markets."





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

This is the one argument I can agree with. But there is still the problem of owners not wanting to dip into the tax to keep a team together for some of these teams that bigger markets have no problem doing. Indy for example built their ECF teams with great draft picks and signing West/trading for Hill then lost Lance(who was a quality player at the time) because they didn't want to pay him more and go into the tax. They offered him all they could that kept them within the cap. Obviously that team fell apart for other reasons, but my point still stands there. They went into the next season with CJ freakin Miles as the starting 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

That's not really big market vs small market either. Chicago is the 3rd biggest market in the league and it's like pulling teeth to get Reinsdorf to pull the trigger on paying the luxury tax.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports