2017 Offseason Thread

[areobee401]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Gordon Hayward head to Boston for press conference in next two days. Sign & trade involving Jae Crowder said to be close, per Mark Murphy.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Man I just saw a report that the Knicks and Celtics are talking about Marcus Smart and that the Celtics would be looking for either Willy or a pick. Giving up a promising young player to facilitate a salary dump for a team we hate with every fiber in our beings? Where they do that at?

[trekfan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Trekfan I'm not going quote your post because Pack gonna start swingin lol(next time try and spoiler something that long for the Tapatalk users), but you make great points. My question is why does it seem like the Spurs are the only small market that can attractive FA's? Sure management/FO's could be the reason, but why do nearly all of them seem to have that problem?

NO - couldn't build around CP3 well enough and had to let him go. They have Davis now who will probably walk if things don't improve.
MIN - They haven't been to the playoffs in over a decade.
OKC - Couldn't do enough to convince Durant to stay
Utah - Couldn't do enough to convince Hayward to stay
Indy - same as OKC/Utah
Sacramento - Couldn't build much to help Boogie, traded him.
Orlando - Couldn't do enough to convince Dwight to stay and haven't done anything since he left.

I don't need to go on.. None of those teams have signed any major free agents. SA is the only attractive small market destination. Memphis and Portland have been solid teams for awhile but neither of them have signed anyone major either except their own guys. Why? Is it poor management or the owners? It's a bit strange to have all the cheap owners and poor GM's all on small market teams lol.. but meanwhile you can have a team like the Knicks who have been poorly managed for seemingly forever yet they can go out and sign Amare and Melo?


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Sorry about the block of text, I'll try to be more succinct. Putting the response in spoilers below.

Spoiler

San Antonio is seemingly the exception to the rule, isn't it? But it is their combination of management and ownership that sets that apart. Running through your list of of teams ...

NOLA -- ownership issues plagued the team since they left Charlotte in the early 2000s (2002/03 if I recall). The previous owner of the team, George Shin, was not an owner who liked spending his money. The current ownership situation is a mess, because the team is owned by Tom Benson (same guy who owns the Saints) and he's 89 -- he, also, is not a big spender of money and he's 89. Once he passes away, his family and estate will get involved and that's a mess in of itself.

Ownership unwilling to spend money usually means cheap front offices, which usually means executives with low salaries, on short contracts, trying to keep from being the guys who get fired for not making the playoffs or some such. It's easier to fire a coach or an executive than it is a player -- that's true in all sports.


MIN - Not a particularly great environment for players, largely -- again -- due to ownership issues. Glen Taylor hired the infamously bad David Kahn (KAHN!!!!!!!) to oversee his team in the late 2000s ... and he did a bad job. They squandered not only prime KG in the early 2000s -- who legitimately had a good shot at getting a title in 2004-05 if they had just given him a little more to work with -- but they also squandered Kevin Love's years, too.

Ownership made poor front office hires (remember Kevin McHale was GM of this team during some of those Prime KG years?) and those front offices made poor coaching hires on a few occasions.

Historical ineptitude is a legacy, just like the Lakers/Celtics championships. Minnesota, unfortunately, is subject to that. They might finally get things right with Thibs in charge.


OKC - OKC made the still head-scratching decision to trade James Harden to Houston. That was the first domino to fall -- ownership didn't want to go into the luxury tax and traded away part of the core to avoid it. The front office went out and got Enes Kanter and gave him a mega-deal ... despite Kanter's non-existent defense. They then fired Scott Brooks, a coach Durant really liked, and replaced him with a college coach in the final year of his contact.

The front office missed on all of those moves (I like Donovan, but he's not a better pro coach than Brooks at this point). They telegraphed their priorities when they traded Harden and made poor choices after that. It's not like the front office was incapable of making better deals -- they just traded for PG to avoid what happened with Durant happening again with Westbrook. The front office simply made poor choices, repeatedly, that didn't get Durant the help he needed to get over the hump.


Utah - As previously outlined, Hayward's decision had less to do with what Utah didn't do and more to do with what he wanted to do; he couldn't pass up the opportunity to play with Stevens.

Indy - poor front office management by Larry Bird. Frank Vogel is a better coach than Nate McMillan, but Bird let him go. Bird tried to change the fabric of the team on the fly and made poor decisions in pursuit of that goal -- he also tried to force PG to play power forward through public statements and PG pushed back. Not a good look when the front office tries to push their star player to do something he doesn't want to, especially since it wasn't that long after George was coming back from his devastating leg injury, if I recall.

Other than Myles Turner, who exactly has Indiana hit on in the draft since PG became "the guy"? He got virtually no help and watched as his ECF teammates left (either by front office trades or outright declining to play with them again) one by one; when a front office can't retain a conference finals core, that's a problem.

Sacramento - Chronically mismanaged in both the front office and ownership for over a decade. Sacramento had one, glorious run in the early 2000s with C-Webb, Bibby, Divac, and Rick Adeleman, and then let that all fade away once the Maloofs took over the team and proceeded to run it so far into the ground they nearly relocated it to a couple of different places.

The team and organization are actually (surprisingly) on the road to recovery, as the Boogie trade really freed them up to pursue a new direction. The signing of well-respected veterans and players in George Hill (former Spur) and ZBo (who will rightfully have his number retired by Memphis in a class move) is a good sign. By the time the rookie contract of Buddy Hield ends, say in about three years, I think Sactown will have rehabbed its image with players/agents again ... assuming their ownership stays out of the way, which is not a guarantee..


Orlando - Otis Smith, if not for Billy King, might be remembered as one of the poorer GMs in recent history. This man helped assemble the 2009 Magic Finals team, then let key pieces walk away, traded for Gilbert Arenas, traded back for key pieces (Hedo), gave an ill-advised contract to Rashard Lewis (whose knees were not in great shape at that point) and missed on virtually every draft pick during Dwight's time there.

Otis Smith was bad at his job for quite awhile before he got let go. Dwight, I really believe, would have stayed if not for two things:

A) he didn't get along with SVG and SVG really didn't get along with him. They had a love-hate relationship, but it was weird the way they worked together.

B) he never got a second star to pair with him. Gilbert Arenas, after the Wizards debacle? Not there. Rashard Lewis? A good stretch four who offered little more than shooting. Vince Carter? In the "I just want to get paid" stage of his career and had just left the Nets so he wasn't exactly prime cut at that point. Hedo? Was never the same after he signed with Toronto and left Orlando. Jameer Nelson? A solid PG who was never destined to be more than that.

Orlando, to my recollection, never even got in the mix for other stars on the trade market. Dwight flip-flopped back and forth before -- finally -- agreeing to end the Dwightmare and leave Orlando.

Again, ownership empowered bad management and bad management made poor choices, which caused star player to leave. Orlando continued this pattern after Dwight left, as the Rob Hennigan era did nothing except accrue more likely draft misses (maybe Aaron Gordon and Hezjonia are good ... maybe), then spent money in free agency on the likes of Jeff Green and Biyombo, then traded for Serge Ibaka ... before trading him again to Toronto.

Orlando is likely going to be spending the next few years digging themselves out of that mess.

But the Spurs are a constant, stable force. Much like Miami (not as small a market, but still smaller than LA, Houston, New York, etc), the Spurs preach culture. Stability. Patience. The difference between the Spurs and the Heat, right now, is that Miami chose to develop through free agency and trades -- their draft record, beyond Wade and Winslow, is pretty poor. Pat Riley likes to build with ready-made players.

The Spurs tend to take any player, anywhere in the draft, and make them ready-made on their schedule.

In conclusion, most small market teams are poorly run currently or have legacy of being poorly run, either through ownership issues, front office issues, or both. It's not a problem limited to just small markets -- the Knicks and Lakers have had their problems over the last 5-7 years too. The Knicks, during the 2000s, were a complete wasteland. STAT went to New York not for the titles (two -- that's just two) the Knicks had or the legacy -- they were willing to pay him big money despite his knee issues. For about 50 games, that looked like a good deal, especially paired with D'Antonio.

Then they gutted the team for Melo, STAT's injuries cropped up, and New York has not signed another prime All-Star free agent since. Big names? Sure. Solid players? Okay. Named to the All-Star team that year? Not that I can recall. You have Rose and Noah, past All-Stars, you have Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler, previous champs with Dallas, but not a single other All-Star has willingly signed there since STAT.

Melo only came back for the extra year, the NTC (which is killing New York as we speak) and because his family was settled there. Melo, at the time, seemed to enjoy playing there. But the chronic mismanagement of the front office (three coaches in Melo's time there and one near Kurt Rambis hire as full-time HC), ownership (James Dolan, everyone) has led to the Knicks being a last-resort signing for most players.

If small market teams wants to retain their stars, they need to commit to surrounding those stars with other talent -- either through draft, trades, or free agency signings -- and putting those stars in the best position, on a consistent basis, to take their shot at their goal.

If they don't do that, the stars will leave, and the cycle will continue just as it did when they were there -- because the constant, almost always, is ownership. You can fire a coach. You can fire a player. You can fire a GM. But you can't fire an owner, unless they pull a Donald Sterling.

[JazzMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Utah hit on more of their draft picks than missed (but Exum looks like a big miss)

Just wanted to say, it's waaaay to early to say that. Kid tore his ACL and missed his entire 2nd year, and it took basically up until the middle of his 3rd season to get back to where he was before. He's still very young, and raw, but this really is his first real NBA Off-season. Big year coming up for him. He has all the tools to be an All-Star level talent, he's looked very impressive in the Summer League, which isn't saying much, but still.

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[Caveman24]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Y'all need to start spoiler tagging these long *** APA format responses lol.

[jeremym480]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Man I just saw a report that the Knicks and Celtics are talking about Marcus Smart and that the Celtics would be looking for either Willy or a pick. Giving up a promising young player to facilitate a salary dump for a team we hate with every fiber in our beings? Where they do that at?

As much as I would love to see Hernangomez in green because I think he's almost exactly what Boston needs, I'm pretty sure that you don't have anything to worry about. Even the Knicks are not dumb enough to trade a player who put up 16/14/3 per 36 and signed to the 2nd round deal for three more years.

[trekfan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Just wanted to say, it's waaaay to early to say that. Kid tore his ACL and missed his entire 2nd year, and it took basically up until the middle of his 3rd season to get back to where he was before. He's still very young, and raw, but this really is his first real NBA Off-season. Big year coming up for him. He has all the tools to be an All-Star level talent, he's looked very impressive in the Summer League, which isn't saying much, but still.

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I'm not buying Summer League hype at this point. I need to see Exum get some solid rotation minutes this season to really show me something ... I'm fearful he's just not going to make that leap. He's so raw still and that's worrisome.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Y'all need to start spoiler tagging these long *** APA format responses lol.

What's a spoiler lol


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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

As much as I would love to see Hernangomez in green because I think he's almost exactly what Boston needs, I'm pretty sure that you don't have anything to worry about. Even the Knicks are dumb enough to trade a player who put up 16/14/3 per 36 and signed to the 2nd round deal for three more years.

This is the first time I've ever been happy we didn't have someone in position to make a move lol. We've been saved from ourselves by Phil's firing.

[wwharton]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

For PackaTalk

Spoiler

Lol honestly man I'm not that mad PG wanted out. Maybe it just hasn't hit me yet idk. For sure I don't like it, but we weren't really that close to competing for a title. We had our run with him and been on the decline since. I'm more mad at Bird than PG.

You're right though I did say that lol, but I did say a post or two later you can count Bron if you want. In the end all these signings are circumstantial. A ton of factors go into it, but I feel like the bigger markets have at least SOME advantage. I don't think I should feel wrong for thinking that...


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I had another couple of your posts quoted but the response is about the same so...

ALL of this coming from you is stemmed from GH going to the Celtics. However, you never seem to acknowledge the main reason he'd be considering the Celtics (his former college coach). You want to try to paint the Jazz and Celtics as being even but don't mention the one he chose just finished 1st in the Eastern Conference, added a top 3 draft pick and are sitting on other picks that will likely be in the lottery... the other plays in the West where, even with him, is a battle to be a 4 or 5 seed and has no clear path going forward.

You just keep going with this idea of Big Market vs Small Market, intentionally skirting details that, to most of us, hold a lot more weight than what you're trying to push.

And you're lying to yourself if you think you current fascination with this isn't tied to the best player on your favorite small market team leaving and screwing the Pacers in the process. That's why I say you need to just let it go, man. Your argument here is pretty bad and based mostly on emotion.

Trekfan I'm not going quote your post because Pack gonna start swingin lol(next time try and spoiler something that long for the Tapatalk users), but you make great points. My question is why does it seem like the Spurs are the only small market that can attractive FA's? Sure management/FO's could be the reason, but why do nearly all of them seem to have that problem?

NO - couldn't build around CP3 well enough and had to let him go. They have Davis now who will probably walk if things don't improve.
MIN - They haven't been to the playoffs in over a decade.
OKC - Couldn't do enough to convince Durant to stay
Utah - Couldn't do enough to convince Hayward to stay
Indy - same as OKC/Utah
Sacramento - Couldn't build much to help Boogie, traded him.
Orlando - Couldn't do enough to convince Dwight to stay and haven't done anything since he left.

I don't need to go on.. None of those teams have signed any major free agents. SA is the only attractive small market destination. Memphis and Portland have been solid teams for awhile but neither of them have signed anyone major either except their own guys. Why? Is it poor management or the owners? It's a bit strange to have all the cheap owners and poor GM's all on small market teams lol.. but meanwhile you can have a team like the Knicks who have been poorly managed for seemingly forever yet they can go out and sign Amare and Melo?


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You still have small market blinders on, as if there isn't a list of big market teams with similar issues.

LA Clippers - laughing stock of the NBA for most of its existence
Knicks - haven't been relevant since before most on this forum were born
Wizards - see Knicks
76ers - see Knicks and Wizards
Lakers - struggles began without West in the FO... continued with ownership shuffle
Mavericks - even with recent championship and owner ready to throw away money, players passing on them
Nets - owner ready to spend and move to biggest market... has gotten them nothing
Hawks - jealous of the Knicks, Wizards and 76ers
Bulls - other than an old Wade going home, what needle moving FA signings have they made?
Suns - Don't remember if Nash went back as a FA, but he was originally drafted by PHX. Who else has gone there since Barkley (going from a bigger market to PHX)?
Celtics - And finally the team of the hour that you are treating like they have things happening for them like the NE Patriots... were mediocre at best while wasting the bulk of Paul Pierce's prime. Created the big 3 for a small return to relevance before disappearing from it again. This is by far the biggest FA signing they've made for as long as I can remember, with Horford being next. IT was looked at as Nate Robinson 2.0 before he got to Boston so he's not included. Your theory doesn't past the smell test with the Celtics, and I'm far from a fan.

As for your list, trekfan did enough heavy lifting but there is more. The summary is small market teams may have trouble convincing a FA star to come be the center piece of a rebuilding team, but that's about all I'll give you. If there is already a star there, if there is a consistent culture of winning, stability in management and coaching, lots of money, etc. then players will listen. It's not hard to figure out the problem all the teams you listed had with attracting FAs and it's not their markets.

[wwharton]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

What's a spoiler lol


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I thought I was bad and OJ was worse, but trekfan's is like both of us combined lol.

Great posts though, trekfan... worth the long read.

[CMH]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

As much as I would love to see Hernangomez in green because I think he's almost exactly what Boston needs, I'm pretty sure that you don't have anything to worry about. Even the Knicks are dumb enough to trade a player who put up 16/14/3 per 36 and signed to the 2nd round deal for three more years.

Freudian slip? I think so.

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[bigeastbumrush]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Who brought up this big/small market nonsense? It needs to be done with already.

LA Clippers signed Serbian PG Milos Teodosic on a 2 year deal - $12.3M w/a 2nd year player option. He's 30 years old but a 3-time EuroLeague first team selection and a former EuroLeague MVP.

Dare I say outside of maxing Blake out (which they really had no choice), I like what the Clippers have done.

[redsox4evur]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Celtics - And finally the team of the hour that you are treating like they have things happening for them like the NE Patriots... were mediocre at best while wasting the bulk of Paul Pierce's prime. Created the big 3 for a small return to relevance before disappearing from it again. This is by far the biggest FA signing they've made for as long as I can remember, with Horford being next. IT was looked at as Nate Robinson 2.0 before he got to Boston so he's not included. Your theory doesn't past the smell test with the Celtics, and I'm far from a fan.

I said this yesterday about the Celtics. It's the biggest free agent signing we have EVER made. He brushed it off by saying there is probably something else when it comes to the Celtics. The bulk of our stars, all stars, whatever you wanna term them, came from drafting with trades or were from before FA started in the NBA (Cousy, Russell, Havlicek, etc.). The last 2 big 3s we have had before this, were from trades and drafting. We drafted Bird, traded for McHale/Parrish from GSW, drafted Pierce, traded for Allen and Garnett. This time we have done it completely differently than before. Traded for Thomas, brought in Horford and Hayward from FA.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Yeah Clippers haven't done horrible for themselves besides not firing Doc, word to Dre.


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