2018 Off-Season Thread

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

i remember back in the day when i said kawhi was going to be a superstar and i got flamed so hard on here

I didn’t even know who you were until I started seeing you in the 2K Forums lol

[TMagic]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

How in the world is TD arguably better than Kobe?

It's not even a contest. TD was the best player of his generation.

You alright brother? Seems like you've been on edge recently. [emoji23]

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[z Revis]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

Everyone has a different definition of a superstar which makes the term almost pointless anyway. For example, is PG a superstar? What about Kyrie or Wall? I’ve heard people refer to these players as superstars before. Hell the media labels pretty much any All Star a superstar. But then you have other people saying nah a superstar is reserved for only top 5 or top 10 players. Pointless term is pointless lol.


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[Majingir]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

Everyone has a different definition of a superstar which makes the term almost pointless anyway. For example, is PG a superstar? What about Kyrie or Wall? I’ve heard people refer to these players as superstars before. Hell the media labels pretty much any All Star a superstar. But then you have other people saying nah a superstar is reserved for only top 5 or top 10 players. Pointless term is pointless lol.


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I consider a superstar to be a top player. Curry, Lebron, Durant on a different level than Kyrie, Wall. I'd consider Kyrie, Wall and others as stars, but not "superstars", if that makes sense.

There's a difference between superstars and household names.

[TMagic]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

Well TMagic likes to reserve that term for only those that can completely change a franchise.

A guy that can make any bad team at least a .500 team. Or can turm a mediocre team into a contender.

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[ojandpizza]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

Man...****s crazy. You miss one year and people forget all about you

I actually think the whole "one year" thing is why some question just how highly you rank him. I mean I think he's a top 5ish guy, best two-way perimeter guy in the league. Sure he's only missed one year, but he also only really had one year where he was playing at that level also. It's not like we saw him do this 3-5 years in a row, or do it when the Spurs were down and out either. I mean they are still basically a 50 win team without him. So after a year off does anybody even know that he gets back to THAT level? What if that season was his peak season? Nobody knows, it wasn't exactly proven to be sustainable.

Spoiler

In that sense it's fair to question what exactly his value is, or what you would expect him to do in a situation that wasn't favorable. We see how he has acted this season (tough to know whats true and what isn't) but I think it would be fair to wonder what his level of engagement would be in a bad situation. On a bad team. Does he carry a bad team? Does he get frustrated and the team falter along with his play. We saw Vince Carter putting up 15 a night and get traded only to torch everyone for 30 a game with the Nets in that same season. Situation was way different, but nobody knows what Kawhi looks like not in a Spurs uniform not playing for Pop, and forced to do things he hasn't shown to do before.

I think he's a better player than Paul George, but for comparisons sake you know PG can go be the best player on a not so great team then go out in the playoffs and get them 30/7/7 and guard the other teams best player to be competitive. He's proven to handle the burden of always having to show up, being the guy you can always just put the ball in his hands when things aren't working. Not saying Kawhi can't, but we haven't saw that not consistently at least. Look at someone like Giannis, he'll give you Kawhi points, is a better lead ball handler, better play-maker, Can be the best rebounder on the floor, etc.

To me, as great as Kawhi is, there are guys in the league who are better suited for that" number 1 guy" spot. It's great that he's such a good defender while also being a great offensive player, but to what extent can you determine his value when most teams have a guy to be their "defensive stopper", most teams would be a bit better suited for Kawhi be a bit better with the ball in his hands, a bit better of a play-maker, more consistently carry the entire offense, and his defense just be good rather than great..

Everyone gets up in arms when I say things like that as if "what do you mean he can't do this or that!!??" I'm not saying he CAN'T, but when you are comparing the top 5 or so guys in the league it's not a slight to point out where some of those guys are better, nobody has a problem calling Kawhi a better defender, but they get up in arms when you point out areas others are better than him. Doesn't make sense.

So it comes down to who do you trade more of your chips for? You can build an entire offensive game plan around Steph Curry, an entire structure, league altering structure that's proven to win. Sure Kawhi is better all around, sure he's the elite two-way guy. But knowing you can get a defender, you can get your 20+ a game scorer, but you can't get another Steph who really holds the most value in that? Most of the guys in that top tier argument are "unicorns" for lack of a better term, meaning there isn't really someone else quite like them. Kawhi may be the best of his group, but there are more of him, and what he offers can be replicated even if not by one player but maybe two. You don't really replace the things Curry does, LeBron does, your whole culture has to change.

I think that's where the lines get blurred some. One side is "no way do you trade a superstar like Kawhi and not get the King's ransom" and the other side I believe is "No way would I trade away 3 starters for a guy that I might not be able to run my entire structure through".. I think the reality is somewhere in the middle of those rather than one of those extremes, but I think it's important to note that nobody is going to be offering up those Melo-like deals anymore, not in today's league where you REALLY need so many big pieces to win.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

Y’all debating this again?

Must be that dead time of the year in the Sports.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

Everyone has a different definition of a superstar which makes the term almost pointless anyway. For example, is PG a superstar? What about Kyrie or Wall? I’ve heard people refer to these players as superstars before. Hell the media labels pretty much any All Star a superstar. But then you have other people saying nah a superstar is reserved for only top 5 or top 10 players. Pointless term is pointless lol.


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Off topic but it annoys me how non-sports media outlets refer to every player as a superstar. Headline might read "NBA Superstar accused of X" then you read the article and its Ryan Anderson or something

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

I don't mean to interrupt whatever this conversation is, but Woj is reporting that OKC has given Melo permission to start talking to teams. So far, he's met with Houston and Miami.

Based on an article from one of the Houston papers, Houston is offering a role off the bench, envisioning him running the second unit alongside his buddy CP3. Miami is probably offering a starting role, which could ultimately steer him towards them.

[jeebs9]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

I don't mean to interrupt whatever this conversation is, but Woj is reporting that OKC has given Melo permission to start talking to teams. So far, he's met with Houston and Miami.

Based on an article from one of the Houston papers, Houston is offering a role off the bench, envisioning him running the second unit alongside his buddy CP3. Miami is probably offering a starting role, which could ultimately steer him towards them.

I'm telling you, Melo is going down the Allen Iverson road. He just can't let his ego go lol. It's got to be about winning right now.

[georgiafan]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

I don't mean to interrupt whatever this conversation is, but Woj is reporting that OKC has given Melo permission to start talking to teams. So far, he's met with Houston and Miami.

Based on an article from one of the Houston papers, Houston is offering a role off the bench, envisioning him running the second unit alongside his buddy CP3. Miami is probably offering a starting role, which could ultimately steer him towards them.

The thunder would have to take back some longer bad contracts to get Melo which makes sense for the heat just don't see why the thunder would do it. Your looking at packages like

Whiteside - 25 million with a player option for the following year

James Johnson / Olynyk - both around 15 million per for the next 3 years.

Tyler Johnson - 19 million for the next 2 years

I assume this wouldn't include Richardson, Waiters or Dragic so I just don't see a heat trade making any sense for the Thunder as they are taking back longer $ and still paying a big tax this year.

https://earlybirdrights.com/salary-cap/mia/

[RedSceptile]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

I don't mean to interrupt whatever this conversation is, but Woj is reporting that OKC has given Melo permission to start talking to teams. So far, he's met with Houston and Miami.

Based on an article from one of the Houston papers, Houston is offering a role off the bench, envisioning him running the second unit alongside his buddy CP3. Miami is probably offering a starting role, which could ultimately steer him towards them.

Yeah Melo you're too good to come off the bench. Go to Miami.

[turty11]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

i think its almost a certainty melo ends up in houston

[TMagic]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

I actually think the whole "one year" thing is why some question just how highly you rank him. I mean I think he's a top 5ish guy, best two-way perimeter guy in the league. Sure he's only missed one year, but he also only really had one year where he was playing at that level also. It's not like we saw him do this 3-5 years in a row, or do it when the Spurs were down and out either. I mean they are still basically a 50 win team without him. So after a year off does anybody even know that he gets back to THAT level? What if that season was his peak season? Nobody knows, it wasn't exactly proven to be sustainable.

Spoiler

In that sense it's fair to question what exactly his value is, or what you would expect him to do in a situation that wasn't favorable. We see how he has acted this season (tough to know whats true and what isn't) but I think it would be fair to wonder what his level of engagement would be in a bad situation. On a bad team. Does he carry a bad team? Does he get frustrated and the team falter along with his play. We saw Vince Carter putting up 15 a night and get traded only to torch everyone for 30 a game with the Nets in that same season. Situation was way different, but nobody knows what Kawhi looks like not in a Spurs uniform not playing for Pop, and forced to do things he hasn't shown to do before.

I think he's a better player than Paul George, but for comparisons sake you know PG can go be the best player on a not so great team then go out in the playoffs and get them 30/7/7 and guard the other teams best player to be competitive. He's proven to handle the burden of always having to show up, being the guy you can always just put the ball in his hands when things aren't working. Not saying Kawhi can't, but we haven't saw that not consistently at least. Look at someone like Giannis, he'll give you Kawhi points, is a better lead ball handler, better play-maker, Can be the best rebounder on the floor, etc.

To me, as great as Kawhi is, there are guys in the league who are better suited for that" number 1 guy" spot. It's great that he's such a good defender while also being a great offensive player, but to what extent can you determine his value when most teams have a guy to be their "defensive stopper", most teams would be a bit better suited for Kawhi be a bit better with the ball in his hands, a bit better of a play-maker, more consistently carry the entire offense, and his defense just be good rather than great..

Everyone gets up in arms when I say things like that as if "what do you mean he can't do this or that!!??" I'm not saying he CAN'T, but when you are comparing the top 5 or so guys in the league it's not a slight to point out where some of those guys are better, nobody has a problem calling Kawhi a better defender, but they get up in arms when you point out areas others are better than him. Doesn't make sense.

So it comes down to who do you trade more of your chips for? You can build an entire offensive game plan around Steph Curry, an entire structure, league altering structure that's proven to win. Sure Kawhi is better all around, sure he's the elite two-way guy. But knowing you can get a defender, you can get your 20+ a game scorer, but you can't get another Steph who really holds the most value in that? Most of the guys in that top tier argument are "unicorns" for lack of a better term, meaning there isn't really someone else quite like them. Kawhi may be the best of his group, but there are more of him, and what he offers can be replicated even if not by one player but maybe two. You don't really replace the things Curry does, LeBron does, your whole culture has to change.

I think that's where the lines get blurred some. One side is "no way do you trade a superstar like Kawhi and not get the King's ransom" and the other side I believe is "No way would I trade away 3 starters for a guy that I might not be able to run my entire structure through".. I think the reality is somewhere in the middle of those rather than one of those extremes, but I think it's important to note that nobody is going to be offering up those Melo-like deals anymore, not in today's league where you REALLY need so many big pieces to win.

I love you OJ man. But you bugging.

Kawhi has been killing it at the elite level for two years. This isn't football where your argument would hold more weight and we see guys go from looking like studs and then nobodies the next season. Here we have a 164 game sample (probably less knowing Pop) in those two years of elite play. And that doesn't even include playoffs nor does it include tracking his ascension. Both of which have been damn good.

Those two years coincided with the years that Pop made him the focus offensively for the team. He was killing it all the way up until Zaza took him out. Hell even in that game he had something like 25 points before halftime and everyone to this day has been saying that the Spurs would've won the series if hadn't gotten hurt. So to say that we don't know if he can carry the load for a team is unequivocally false.

Seems as if you're knocking him for not dribbling the air out of the ball until he can find someone to get them a shot. You can't expect that in Pops offense. And Kawhi was hella efficient as a player and made the right reads more times than not. When he was aggressive he got guys good shots from the attention on him, whether it resulted in an assist or the hockey assist.

Kawhi is an NBA champion, a finals MVP, and has won DPOY twice as a perimeter player. He was better than Paul George without question.

Now is he still at that level? No one knows. But I'm not even sure where that argument came from. Lol

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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2018 Off-Season Thread

Yeah Melo you're too good to come off the bench. Go to Miami.

So it’s either play for a Coach he couldn’t stand in NY or playing for a Coach who’s going to play him as a Stretch 4, which he has been against doing.

This is like your girl telling you she’s hungry but has eliminated every option you’ve thrown at her because she “doesn’t like them and they’re nasty”.🤷🏾*♂️

Lord have mercy.