ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

This series has been fantastic so far. It's great that they've interviewed such a wide range of people.

Dickey Simpkins where you at dawg? No Craig Hodges? I even had a custom-made Craig Hodges jersey...my favorite of the "lesser known" Bulls.

Not seeing Laimbeer in there makes more sense with his comments in the media today.

Episodes 3/4 got me thinking...whether you rooted for the Bulls or Pistons back then, the NBA sorely lacks any serious rivalries these days. I think The Last Dance has made that plain. The advent of the "super team" and people making business decisions hasn't decreased the quality of play (if anything, players these days are more skilled offensively), but it has sapped a lot of the drama and intrigue from the game. That, and the Bulls epic fail of a management structure these past 5+ years have really made me enjoy the game less. Plus, almost nobody really plays defense anymore and scoring 100+ pts used to be an accomplishment as all those low-scoring games indicate. But, never mind that...

[pietasterp]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

Not seeing Laimbeer in there makes more sense with his comments in the media today.

Laimbeer is defiant and unrepentant - just the way he should be. A true OG.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

IDK why people insist that to be true. Teams averaged 109 ppg in 1988/89, they average 111 ppg this season. Average ppg for the 10 year span of 80/81 - 89/90 is 109 ppg, for the 10 year span from 10/11-this season 103 ppg.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

IDK why people insist that to be true. Teams averaged 109 ppg in 1988/89, they average 111 ppg this season. Average ppg for the 10 year span of 80/81 - 89/90 is 109 ppg, for the 10 year span from 10/11-this season 103 ppg.

Don't know why you're quoting the 80s when the Bulls dynasty happened in the 90s. Maybe b/c the Bulls/Pistons earlier matchups were in the late 1980s. I also think doing 10-year spans glosses over the massive increase in ppg we've seen during the '10-'20 period.

I still prefer any era where defense is played and emphasized. People are allowed to have opinions tho.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

Laimbeer is defiant and unrepentant - just the way he should be. A true OG.

And one helluva dirty player.

[jfsolo]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

IDK why people insist that to be true. Teams averaged 109 ppg in 1988/89, they average 111 ppg this season. Average ppg for the 10 year span of 80/81 - 89/90 is 109 ppg, for the 10 year span from 10/11-this season 103 ppg.

Yeah, the rules have made it impossible to contain great offensive players one on one most of the time. Many of the young stars, Trey, Luca, Zac Lavine, for example are notoriously bad defenders, but there are still a lot of great individual defenders and team defense for the league as a whole is as good as its ever been IMO, considering the rules and the spacing.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

I still prefer any era where defense is played and emphasized.

I don't think there has been an era where this hasn't been the case. Scoring rises and falls as pace rises and falls, regardless of how great the defense is more shots equals more points.

Use whatever season you want, the points per possession and defensive ratings and such haven't deviated all that much for any year of modern basketball. Even a low scoring year like 1997 where teams averaged about 97 points per game the pace was only around 90, teams were averaging 1.07 point per possession, in today's game teams are averaging 1.1 point per possession even with the abundance in threes. Defensive ratings vary from about 107 to 110, again hardly a difference considering more threes, FG 45.5% vs 46% league averages.

I don't think anybody would fault anyone for preferring one era over another, I think in a way any fan is going to prefer the era they first fell in love with the game watching over anything that happens after... But that doesn't mean that just because we may prefer one era that another era just flat out doesn't have defense, or whatever the given argument may be. It's practically the same, scoring is high because pace is high, just like it was in the 80's, pace just happened to be historically low in the late 90's-early 2000's.

[pietasterp]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

And one helluva dirty player.

No dirtier than Parish, or McHale, or Oakley, or frankly, Bruce Bowen. And dirty is in the eye of the beholder. I never thought he was dirty. He was tough.

And he also set a record for 3's made in a finals game - a stretch center - in 1990! But again, I guess the 'Stones just fouled and punched their way to 3 straight NBA finals and 5 straight ECF.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

team defense for the league as a whole is as good as its ever been IMO, considering the rules and the spacing.

Just curious but when did it ever fall off?

[VDusen04]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

No dirtier than Parish, or McHale, or Oakley, or frankly, Bruce Bowen. And dirty is in the eye of the beholder. I never thought he was dirty. He was tough.

And he also set a record for 3's made in a finals game - a stretch center - in 1990! But again, I guess the 'Stones just fouled and punched their way to 3 straight NBA finals and 5 straight ECF.

I debated responding to this because I know we shouldn't eat our own kind (two OS Pistons fans unite!) but if anyone met my threshold for dirty in the NBA since I've been alive, it's Bill Laimbeer. Yes, he was tough, but he also had enough dirty moments to qualify. Rick Mahorn too. And probably Dennis Rodman.

Tough is stepping up helpside and establishing oneself as a brick wall even though an offensive player's bearing down on you with bad intentions (Laimbeer). Dirty is clotheslining a player to send a message (also Laimbeer). Tough is playing through injuries and stepping up to guard the best player on the floor whenever asked (Rodman). Dirty is shoving a player in mid-air when your team's already down 20 with a couple minutes left in the fourth (also Rodman). Tough is setting a brick wall screen at midcourt (Mahorn). Dirty is concussing an opposing guard with an intentional elbow (also Mahorn).

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

I don't think there has been an era where this hasn't been the case. Scoring rises and falls as pace rises and falls, regardless of how great the defense is more shots equals more points.

Use whatever season you want, the points per possession and defensive ratings and such haven't deviated all that much for any year of modern basketball. Even a low scoring year like 1997 where teams averaged about 97 points per game the pace was only around 90, teams were averaging 1.07 point per possession, in today's game teams are averaging 1.1 point per possession even with the abundance in threes. Defensive ratings vary from about 107 to 110, again hardly a difference considering more threes, FG 45.5% vs 46% league averages.

I don't think anybody would fault anyone for preferring one era over another, I think in a way any fan is going to prefer the era they first fell in love with the game watching over anything that happens after... But that doesn't mean that just because we may prefer one era that another era just flat out doesn't have defense, or whatever the given argument may be. It's practically the same, scoring is high because pace is high, just like it was in the 80's, pace just happened to be historically low in the late 90's-early 2000's.

I think you are sort of proving my point with your argument about pace of play. In my mind, a faster pace is tied to weaker defense. I'm not sure I'd decouple the two things like your argument is doing here. Efficiency and pace are different, yes, but both contribute to the more offensive style of play we have today. In the 1980s, offenses weren't near as efficient as today (they shot 23.8% from 3 on just 2.3 attempts per game in 82-83 for example), but they ran like hell and did tons of cocaine. Anyhow, if you're picking up full court/half court, defending the perimeter with more energy and physicality, then teams are chewing through more of the shot clock and aren't going to be flying up and down the court for ~115 ppg.

This isn't an issue that is specific to just basketball. All of the major sports have consistently emphasized more offensive production in recent history. In MLB, we have HRs galore as MLB has [probably] juiced the baseballs while acting all babe-in-the-woods. The NFL has mostly made it illegal to defend against the forward pass or to impact an offensive player other than a running back. The NBA has legislated its way to hyper-efficient/analytical offenses that make it criminal to shoot mid-range jumpers or less than 10 corner threes per game. In some ways, the rules changes and emphasis on scoring/superstardom has made a war on defense. Ironically enough, the MJ era that I am referring to paved the way for lots of these offensive changes in basketball--more guard-oriented play, less post play, less benefit of a doubt with hard fouls.

I'd also say that while I disagree with your argument that defense has always been constant, I agree with your statement that people will come to idealize the characteristics of their favorite sports from their formative years. For me, I grew up on the Bulls of the 1980s and 1990s, so tough physical slugfests against Anthony Mason (another dirty player we should mention) or Davis&Davis or Rick Mahorn/Bill Laimbeer or Alonzo Mourning were some of things I remember most vividly.

Hard to imagine that the average NBA team scored 95.6 ppg during The Last Dance's season. This season was at 111.4 ppg before the stoppage. Even as recently as 14-15 (the last season the Bulls were "good") teams were averaging just 100 ppg. Very noticeable increase in just 5 years. To each their own, I guess.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

Defense doesn’t necessarily dictate pace. Points per possession being roughly the same doesn’t insinuate that either style is strongly superior than the other because teams are still scoring at roughly the same rate.

The amount of points scored in a game is going to fluctuate based on how the style of play fluctuates. If your offensive objective is to get 40-50 post touches a game you could be playing the worst defense in the league and scoring on 60% of your shots and still be scoring substantially less points than a team who’s running a faster paced offense. You can’t just chalk up differing play styles as cocaine and garbage defense instead of just recognizing the change in play style for what it is.

I mean it’s fine to say to each his own, or we prefer what we prefer, but it’s not factually correct to claim that defenses are horrible now compared to that period of time when scoring rates are roughly the same. One could play the reverse argument on you and say that offenses were horrible then, I’m sure we would all be quick to disagree.

Today’s current season is within a couple points of possession scoring of most seasons throughout the 90’s. The absolute largest gap in the “Jordan era” wild be 98 when points per 100 possession was 105 vs this season 110.. considering that teams are shooting nearly 3 times the amount of three point shots I would have actually assumed that gap to be larger playing against even the most elite defenses.

By what you’re arguing the same claims would say a team like the 99 Orlando Magic would be a better defensive unit than the 90’s Bulls teams, Bad Boy Detroit teams, 90’s Knicks teams, etc.. I think we can all agree that’s not even remotely close to being an accurate statement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

Even elaborating on the stylistic aspect a bit more. Say you’ve got the Knicks and the ball is going in to Ewing 40-50 times a game. You know that they first have to run an action to get him to his spot. Mark
Jackson is often going to have the ball for longer periods of time to get him the ball.. everyone on the floor knows Jackson isn’t a threat to score, you can body him, play him tight, play him away from Ewing to delay the entry pass because you know he’s not crossing you back the other direction and looking to score or kick for an open corner 3, there’s no penalty for playing him too close because he’s not looking to blow past you... all of this action stalls offense, elongates the possession, and shortens possessions per game, and repeatedly over the course of 48 minutes lowers points per game. Doesn’t even have to be an elite defense as the culprit.

Meanwhile the entire play a simple skip pass to Gerald Wilkins might be a wide open 3 point look on the opposite wing, or a skip to a quick corner swing for the corner 3. In that time that’s not a popular shot, not for sake of good/bad defense, teams just weren’t deliberately making those plays with regularity because those shots and roster full of capable outside threats wasn’t the norm.

Had the 2nd play developed perhaps they get up a shot quicker, make/miss its quickens the style of play, more possessions in a game the more frequent those plays occur, more points scored per game due to the change in pace. Defensively the approach and team could be the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BleacherBum2310]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

This series has been fantastic so far. It's great that they've interviewed such a wide range of people.

Dickey Simpkins where you at dawg? No Craig Hodges? I even had a custom-made Craig Hodges jersey...my favorite of the "lesser known" Bulls.

Not seeing Laimbeer in there makes more sense with his comments in the media today.

Episodes 3/4 got me thinking...whether you rooted for the Bulls or Pistons back then, the NBA sorely lacks any serious rivalries these days. I think The Last Dance has made that plain. The advent of the "super team" and people making business decisions hasn't decreased the quality of play (if anything, players these days are more skilled offensively), but it has sapped a lot of the drama and intrigue from the game. That, and the Bulls epic fail of a management structure these past 5+ years have really made me enjoy the game less. Plus, almost nobody really plays defense anymore and scoring 100+ pts used to be an accomplishment as all those low-scoring games indicate. But, never mind that...

Rivalries might've been better but quality of play I much prefer what we have now. I couldn't imagine 82-80 game or worse now and not because they played excellent defense back in the day. That's alot of bricks. Higher Pace doesn't mean people don't play defense the skill level is really off the charts. I don't think one is better, just I like the game we have now. less super teams would be ideal but man they had alot back then also. so idk.


on another note. I think the Doc didn't highlight enough how ridiculous Jordan's numbers were early on. and that was without a 3 Pointer is his arsenal. Just ridiculous

[jeebs9]

Re: ESPN Presents: The Last Dance, a 10-part documentary on 97-98 Chicago Bulls

Just be thankful MJ missed the 3-to-Make-2 Era.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ubFJCR_l_OQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He was picked up by the Bulls late in the 1997 season then signed a big contract with the Pistons that offseason. Basically just a short rental for Chicago the year prior to The Last Dance so my guess that Dele won't figure too prominently.

But yeah, the story is that he, his wife (or girlfriend), and brother cast out to sea and only the brother returned, possibly stealing Bison's identity, before intentionally OD'ing. Sports Illustrated had a pretty thorough long form piece on the whole situation back in 2002: https://vault.si.com/vault/2002/09/3...-what-happened

Thanks

See someone sneaking these up lol

https://youtu.be/UyNJh3MoG1o

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk