Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

[abuC]

I understand that it's considered a niche sport, and that there's more money if you go after causal gamers, I know they want to maximize profits but why dont these companies stop for a second and look around. What genre of sports games are there on the market right now where the more casual approach is viewed as the superior product to the sim version? I think 2k made a huge mistake with their approach with Prizefighter, even if the fighting had been good we'd still have the problem of 1:30 rounds in career mode, no actual rankings and the boss approach to career which isnt very realistic. If these developers just looked at buy rates of PPVs there's clearly an audience out there that loves boxing that hasnt been tapped. These forums are a perfect example, it's an overwhelming number of people that want a SIM, boxing is enough of an action sport that you dont have to add all these crappy little bells and whistles, just give people as close to realistic as possible.

Boxing is chess, but anytime a game hits the market it's nothing more than checkers. The Live series is more of an accurate representation of the NBA than any boxing game that has been sold in the US in the last 10 years, hell, WWE games are more true to their "sport" than boxing games have been.

[Vast]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I understand that it's considered a niche sport, and that there's more money if you go after causal gamers, I know they want to maximize profits but why dont these companies stop for a second and look around. What genre of sports games are there on the market right now where the more casual approach is viewed as the superior product to the sim version? I think 2k made a huge mistake with their approach with Prizefighter, even if the fighting had been good we'd still have the problem of 1:30 rounds in career mode, no actual rankings and the boss approach to career which isnt very realistic. If these developers just looked at buy rates of PPVs there's clearly an audience out there that loves boxing that hasnt been tapped. These forums are a perfect example, it's an overwhelming number of people that want a SIM, boxing is enough of an action sport that you dont have to add all these crappy little bells and whistles, just give people as close to realistic as possible.

Boxing is chess, but anytime a game hits the market it's nothing more than checkers. The Live series is more of an accurate representation of the NBA than any boxing game that has been sold in the US in the last 10 years, hell, WWE games are more true to their "sport" than boxing games have been.

Co-Sign!!

I blame Kudo!

[mr_president]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I understand that it's considered a niche sport, and that there's more money if you go after causal gamers, I know they want to maximize profits but why dont these companies stop for a second and look around. What genre of sports games are there on the market right now where the more casual approach is viewed as the superior product to the sim version? I think 2k made a huge mistake with their approach with Prizefighter, even if the fighting had been good we'd still have the problem of 1:30 rounds in career mode, no actual rankings and the boss approach to career which isnt very realistic. If these developers just looked at buy rates of PPVs there's clearly an audience out there that loves boxing that hasnt been tapped. These forums are a perfect example, it's an overwhelming number of people that want a SIM, boxing is enough of an action sport that you dont have to add all these crappy little bells and whistles, just give people as close to realistic as possible.

Boxing is chess, but anytime a game hits the market it's nothing more than checkers. The Live series is more of an accurate representation of the NBA than any boxing game that has been sold in the US in the last 10 years, hell, WWE games are more true to their "sport" than boxing games have been.

i hear ya bro...i have wondered the same thing for years.

[totalownership]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

Ok let's understand some things. These games HAVE to sell to the casual fan first. I'm sorry but boxing just doesn't carry the same audience as the other sports. If 2K made any mistake with this game it was making it TOO close to the sport than anything else out there. If it was more arcade then it would have probably sold more.

Also, believe me every sport game ever made to hit a console had casual fans in mind first. Let's look at probably the most sim sport game on any console , NBA 2K8. As good as it is when you have Ben Wallace hitting reverse layups like he's Paul Pierce then you know somethings up.

[fistofrage]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I agree, but its not me holding them to a lower standard, its the developers that get flip flop wearing yahoos to create their games that know nothing of the sport. What can we do? Not support the games by not buying them, then we'll get nothing. Support the games and we'll get more of the same.

I hope all this changes with FN round 4. The developers claim they have read our requests. We shall see.

[totalownership]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I agree, but its not me holding them to a lower standard, its the developers that get flip flop wearing yahoos to create their games that know nothing of the sport. What can we do? Not support the games by not buying them, then we'll get nothing. Support the games and we'll get more of the same.

I hope all this changes with FN round 4. The developers claim they have read our requests. We shall see.

You'll see more of the same. You might see gold coins come out of the fighters backside every time he gets hit with an uppercut. Some games just wont every get to that "ultimate sim". You know that 9 outta 10 people who by boxing games just want to beat people up with the strongest guy , thats it.

[Lakers 24 7]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I understand that it's considered a niche sport, and that there's more money if you go after causal gamers, I know they want to maximize profits but why dont these companies stop for a second and look around. What genre of sports games are there on the market right now where the more casual approach is viewed as the superior product to the sim version?

That's an easy one... Madden. Look at how many people buy that game every year and their goal has never been to make a sim product, yet the sales were always better than NFL 2k products.

I think 2k made a huge mistake with their approach with Prizefighter, even if the fighting had been good we'd still have the problem of 1:30 rounds in career mode, no actual rankings and the boss approach to career which isnt very realistic. If these developers just looked at buy rates of PPVs there's clearly an audience out there that loves boxing that hasnt been tapped.

This is where a lot of people will disagree at, PF is a sim representation of boxing, that was certainly their goal with this. The short rounds in career mode are for the casual fans, so everyone can finish it and have fun. For the hardcore guys go online or setup an exhibition of 12 3 minute rounds.

To your second point, there are a lot of casual boxing fans, not a wealth of hardcore boxing fans. If that was the case then Pavlik vs Calzaghe would be a bigger draw than RJJ vs Calzaghe. Mosley vs Cotto would have done more buys than RJJ vs Tito. The list goes on.

These forums are a perfect example, it's an overwhelming number of people that want a SIM, boxing is enough of an action sport that you dont have to add all these crappy little bells and whistles, just give people as close to realistic as possible.

Agreed, which is why I love PrizeFighter so much.

[Lakers 24 7]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I hope all this changes with FN round 4. The developers claim they have read our requests. We shall see.

pffft, we've been hearing that with Madden for the past five years. Yeah they probably did read the requests, but will they implement them?

[101]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

pffft, we've been hearing that with Madden for the past five years. Yeah they probably did read the requests, but will they implement them?

Madden has no more unrealistic aspects than other games have. Always a few guys on OS who seem to be convinced that 2K has some exclusive lease on realism because of some fancy animation when don't they even come close to accurately portray open field movement and pursuit. Defenders follow you like a school of fish... BUT I DIGRESS...

To address the actual topic: There really isn't much of a benchmark to encourage devs to strive for realism. The other major sports respective gaming titles constantly (for better or worse) bring in features from their real life counterparts. Boxing doesn't have a players union like the other major sports, so its hard to secure rights for athletes. Even a big studio like EA could only secure what I would consider a modest roster of fighters. That, and the fact that there are so many different factions, makes it hard to have uniform rules and guidelines and career options.

and finally, I would say that on the whole, the fans of boxing are much less concerned about the nuisances of the actual sport then fans of the other major sports. You say gamers are only concerned about pummeling the other guy to death, well guess what, the majority of the people who pay 50 bucks a pop to see an event on PPV feel the same way.

[SHAKYR]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

Boxing game makers have low standards for boxing. There are hardcore fans of boxing videogames and year after year they keep buying these games off of promises it would be sim-like. I'm a 38 year old videogamer and retired boxer who knows there are gamers my age and older looking for a good boxing sim. If you do your research like I do. You would know there is a large audience of fans who want ain-depth boxing game. Title Bout Championship Boxing is a text-sim with a very large audience,just off of reading text and watching 2 very generic boxing figures on screen. Go to there website and watch how well this game sells. They would buy a game if it was Fight Night Round 3 graphics with title Bout presentation. Every boxing website has a videogame section with fans in the thousands.Do the math. If developers put just as much of a effort as THQ/Yukes put in it's games. The numbers will soar. Sims sell! It's people keep buying games casual gamers like hoping to find something sim this time around.

[N51_rob]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I think that there are a couple of reason. What is the number one selling boxing game of all time? Mike Tyson punch out. That game has a cult following and is as arcady as it can get. So developers are trying to create a game that can draw that kind of following.

Second, outside of those fans that watch boxing for all the greatness that the "sweet science" has to offer. Ask yourself this how many boxing highlight reels are of great matches that went to the cards? Not many. Again the causal boxing fan only wants to see the punishing KO's. Not the work in the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th rounds that lead to that 8th round KO.

Third, boxing is probably one of the hardest sports to recreate to apease the sim gamer. Think about all the boxers that are out there and all the styles, trainers and personalites that make up the sport of boxing. You have the top notch guys, that next level beneath them, the up and comers, the paper champs, the tomato cans, the over the hill guys that are still holding on to the dream, alll the gym superstars that you will never hear of. On top of that think about all the things that happen in the ring during a given card. There is a lot to account for.

While I don't accept nor am I making excuses for boxing games. It just seems to me that next to a golf game, boxing games have so much to take into account for a single match let alone the work leading up to that. Companies are stuck trying to recreate the magic of punch-out while giving the fans a glimpse of what they see on the highlights and on a given PPV.

I would love to see a quality boxing game where match go 12 rounds. Workrates in the early rounds effect the volume and power of punches in the later rounds. Footwork matters. Moving to the off hand of your opponant negates some of his power. Working the body of your opponant pays dividends in the later rounds. But those things don't sell to the masses, and us hardcore boxing fans make up a small sample of the video game buying demographic. But that is just IMHO, and what do I know right?

[SHAKYR]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I think that there are a couple of reason. What is the number one selling boxing game of all time? Mike Tyson punch out. That game has a cult following and is as arcady as it can get. So developers are trying to create a game that can draw that kind of following.

Second, outside of those fans that watch boxing for all the greatness that the "sweet science" has to offer. Ask yourself this how many boxing highight reels are of great matches that went to the cards? Not many. Again the causal boxing fan only wants to see the punishing KO's. Not the work in the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th rounds that lead to that 8th round KO.

Third, boxing is probably one of the hardest sports to recreate to apease the sim gamer. Think about all the boxers that are out there and all the styles, trainers and personalites that make up the sport of boxing. You have the top notch guys, that next level beneath them, the up and comers, the paper champs, the tomato cans, the over the hill guy that are still holding on to the dream, alll the gym superstars that you will never hear of. On top of that think about all the things that happen in the ring during a given card. There is a lot to account for.

While I don't accept nor am I making excuses for boxing games. It just seems to me that next to a golf game, boxing games have so much to take into account for a single match let alone the work leading up to that. Companies are stuck trying to recreate the magic of punch-out while giving the fans a glimpse of what they see on the highlights and on a given PPV.

I would love to see a quality boxing game where match go 12 rounds. Workrates in the early rounds effect the volume and power of punches in the later rounds. Footwork matters. Moving to the off hand of your opponant negates some of his power. Working the body of your opponant pays dividends in the later rounds. But those things don't sell to the masses, and us hardcore boxing fans make up a small sample of the video game buying demographic. But that is just IMHO, and what do I know right?

I have totally disagree with you. The only reason Mike Tyson Punchout is a cult classic is the memories people have of playing it.(it was the only boxing game at the time). Boxing isn't hard at all to recreate. Look at all those moves in the Smackdown vs. Raw games. I remember some years ago K1 had a kickboxing like game..it was beautifully made. I just hate that they stop that K1 series. Stop giving these guys excuses we spend good money on these games.


P.S Not all gamers like slugfest.

[N51_rob]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

I have totally disagree with you. The only reason Mike Tyson Punchout is acult classic is the memories people have of playing it.(it was the only boxing game at the time). Boxing isn't hard at all to recreate. Look at all those moves in the Smackdown vs. Raw games. I remember some years ago K1 had a kickboxing like game..it was beautifully made. I just hate that they stop that K1 series. Stop giving these guys excuses we spend good money on these games.


P.S Not all gamers like slugfest.

Not sure which part of my post was a endorsement of slug fest type games. I also think that to compare boxing and wrestling isn't fair to boxing at all. I've never played the K1 game so I will default to your statement about it.

I wasn't giving excuses for the devs of these games. I was just trying to give my opinion to the OP's question. I personally haven't purchased a boxing game since the first fight night. I've rented the subsequent titles and haven't been inpressed at all. So I've refused to buy. I have a PS3 so I won't get a chance to play PF but I've heard and read that it's getting mixed reviews.

[101]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

Boxing game makers have low standards for boxing. There are hardcore fans of boxing videogames and year after year they keep buying these games off of promises it would be sim-like. I'm a 38 year old videogamer and retired boxer who knows there are gamers my age and older looking for a good boxing sim. If you do your research like I do. You would know there is a large audience of fans who want ain-depth boxing game. Title Bout Championship Boxing is a text-sim with a very large audience,just off of reading text and watching 2 very generic boxing figures on screen. Go to there website and watch how well this game sells. They would buy a game if it was Fight Night Round 3 graphics with title Bout presentation. Every boxing website has a videogame section with fans in the thousands.Do the math. If developers put just as much of a effort as THQ/Yukes put in it's games. The numbers will soar. Sims sell! It's people keep buying games casual gamers like hoping to find something sim this time around.

I respect your passion for the sport, but I think you're greatly overestimating the demand for the type of boxing game you're describing. Especially if you're using the traffic or a web forum of portal as a barometer. No major gaming studio will develop ANY game off the strength of that.

[101]

Re: Why are boxing games held to a lower standard of realism?

Boxing game makers have low standards for boxing. There are hardcore fans of boxing videogames and year after year they keep buying these games off of promises it would be sim-like. I'm a 38 year old videogamer and retired boxer who knows there are gamers my age and older looking for a good boxing sim. If you do your research like I do. You would know there is a large audience of fans who want ain-depth boxing game. Title Bout Championship Boxing is a text-sim with a very large audience,just off of reading text and watching 2 very generic boxing figures on screen. Go to there website and watch how well this game sells. They would buy a game if it was Fight Night Round 3 graphics with title Bout presentation. Every boxing website has a videogame section with fans in the thousands.Do the math. If developers put just as much of a effort as THQ/Yukes put in it's games. The numbers will soar. Sims sell! It's people keep buying games casual gamers like hoping to find something sim this time around.

I respect your passion for the sport, but I think you're greatly overestimating the demand for the type of boxing game you're describing. Especially if you're using the traffic or a web forum or portal as a barometer. No major gaming studio will develop ANY game off the strength of that.