Boxing Off-Topic

[sheredia]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

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thank you, HBO for the memories.....it's bittersweet for me, to say the least. my late father (RIP dad) got me hooked and i literally started watching (and my brother) when HBO started televising fights. must have been 4 or 5 years old at the time in '73. we watched so many thrilling fights together (too many to count), it really bonded us with my dad. so when i say thanks for the memories, it's memories of my dad too.

[edaddy]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

thank you, HBO for the memories.....it's bittersweet for me, to say the least. my late father (RIP dad) got me hooked and i literally started watching (and my brother) when HBO started televising fights. must have been 4 or 5 years old at the time in '73. we watched so many thrilling fights together (too many to count), it really bonded us with my dad. so when i say thanks for the memories, it memories of my dad too.

I feel ya on this man..HBO was a channel no one in our neighborhood could afford back in the day..but I got a chance to see the Pryor -Arguello fight and was hooked on it since. I could finally afford it in college because it was part of our in room scholarship and I never missed a HBO fight..top notch presentation, matchmaking, and broadcast teams. I used to have large fight parties and developed some great memories. HBO after dark was a great platform as well..it's sad to see the direction boxing is going with the PPV fights and WWE press conferences..That last HBO telecast shows just how much money they must have lost.I will miss the good ol days of straight boxing..Kudos HBO..

[allBthere]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Charlo Bros on right now.

Just a note about judging though - I won't spoil other than saying I think Korbov won round 1 AND 2.

I think Charlo will come through and end up winning, but I also think most judges out thre would give Charlo those rounds or at least one of them because he's the 'hot fighter', he's 'supposed to win'

We all know how bias works.

If you never saw either fighter I don't see how you give Charlo either of those rounds

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Charlo Bros on right now.

Just a note about judging though - I won't spoil other than saying I think Korbov won round 1 AND 2.

I think Charlo will come through and end up winning, but I also think most judges out thre would give Charlo those rounds or at least one of them because he's the 'hot fighter', he's 'supposed to win'

We all know how bias works.

If you never saw either fighter I don't see how you give Charlo either of those rounds

Forgot about the fights. I realize your assessment is happening in real time before the end of the first (Jermell) fight for the WBC 154 crown. After some opinion reading, it appears that Jermell (154) got robbed and that Jermall (160) got a very generous "scoring" against last-minute replacement Matvey Korobov.

[allBthere]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Forgot about the fights. I realize your assessment is happening in real time before the end of the first (Jermell) fight for the WBC 154 crown. After some opinion reading, it appears that Jermell (154) got robbed and that Jermall (160) got a very generous "scoring" against last-minute replacement Matvey Korobov.

Both fights are worth watching. Jermell didn't get 'robbed' I thought he narrowly won because of activity, but most of the best shots were from him opponent.

Jermall indeed got very generous scoring - I had the fight a draw I believe because Jermall deserved a 10-8 round in the 12th if I remember correctly as he was abusing Korbov. BUT Korbov was landing all of the best shots all night with crisp and powerful straight lefts continuously getting through.

In some ways if the decisions were reversed I could see it being less controversial. The bias in the telecast was unfortunate and led to a lot of the robbery opinions - the replay operator kept cueing up big shots from Jermell's opponent which to me tells me the producer and people working the technical side of the broadcast thought he was losing. Both fights were accuracy vs volume to some extent.

[pk500]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

In some ways if the decisions were reversed I could see it being less controversial. The bias in the telecast was unfortunate and led to a lot of the robbery opinions - the replay operator kept cueing up big shots from Jermell's opponent which to me tells me the producer and people working the technical side of the broadcast thought he was losing. Both fights were accuracy vs volume to some extent.

Homerism by the announce teams is a big problem with all of the new TV and streaming alliances for boxing.

The commentators for DAZN, ESPN+, Showtime and FOX are total shills for the "house fighters," which last Saturday night were the Charlos. It was no different in the final years of HBO Boxing, during which the formerly excellent and objective Max Kellerman became a total shill for the predetermined HBO narrative, regardless of what was unfolding in the ring.

It's no coincidence that Max's conversion to shilling sellout occurred right after Larry Merchant retired. Merchant NEVER toed the company line. He was a true reporter.

[allBthere]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Saw the movie "Bleed for this" which is Vinny Pazienza's story.

I forgot the movie came out and was pumped for it, but for me it fell short in many areas which is unfortunate. Even as a life-long boxing fan I didn't know the extent of Vinny's great career and didn't know about his injury either.

So the actual story is utterly amazing, but the film-making falls flat in many areas - not all - but enough that for me the movie was just 'ok'.

That said, the movie is sort of for boxing fans because they don't explain a ton and just kind of expect you to know - for example - kevin rooney I know who he is, but watched with my wife who knows almost nothing about boxing. She didn't realize he trained Mike Tyson, and although they mention it in the movie it's glossed over and won't really hit home with non-boxing people. There is a lot of that there where you just are supposed to know. Another example is Roberto Duran, Vinny moving up 3 weight classes in 2 fights, and post-accident is a fabrication because he fought a few times before Duran - but they don't let the viewer know how famous and HOF material Duran is...it's for the middleweight title in the movie, but they don't create the mystique required to introduce someone like Duran.

The film-making also fell flat on highlights, emotional moments and crescendo's .. maybe just trying to be different? Sometimes the tried and true is that way for a reason.

The actual boxing? No movie has really done it that well and my favourite is still Gladiator (the boxing one from the 90s) ... loved that lol ... but here it's not terrible - it's better than southpaw (terrible) and sort of like Creed (decent) but with less haymaking connects.

Finally, it's a bit strange they used poetic justice for in-ring performance and less for out of ring. Example; his first fight at jr middle they had him KO his opponent in round 1? In real life it was a 11th round tko that was kind of strange. I understand keeping the film run-time down but there is other pots they could have condensed, could have used montage etc...

Vinny is/was sort of a weird guy - like living at home while being a 2 time world champion? not drinking alcohol, but having a gambling problem? lol

If nothing else it made me look him up - all I really saw of him growing up was his later career fights, I didn't realize how good he was, and how much power he had for a smaller guy. Later in his career he avoided engaging too much and did that whole walk sideways and fix his shorts thing - lots of flash w/o too much sizzle.

[pk500]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

I met the Pazmanian Devil about seven years ago at the Boxing Hall of Fame Induction Weekend. He was a fun ball of energy -- greeting fans, taking pictures and signing autographs non-stop while working the crowd with constant chatter peppered by profanities.

Vinny Paz posed for a picture with my then 11-year-old son that I still cherish to this day, with his arm wrapped around his neck while hurling about four F-bombs in normal conversation.

He's a piece of work!

[pietasterp]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Homerism by the announce teams is a big problem with all of the new TV and streaming alliances for boxing.

The commentators for DAZN, ESPN+, Showtime and FOX are total shills for the "house fighters," which last Saturday night were the Charlos. It was no different in the final years of HBO Boxing, during which the formerly excellent and objective Max Kellerman became a total shill for the predetermined HBO narrative, regardless of what was unfolding in the ring.

It's no coincidence that Max's conversion to shilling sellout occurred right after Larry Merchant retired. Merchant NEVER toed the company line. He was a true reporter.

I'd have to agree with this. I hate Max Kellerman and of all the things to regret about HBO leaving boxing, his not being on TV on an additional forum is certainly not one of them. But he did used to actually have some reasonable criticisms of the coziness of certain promoters to certain networks (including his own), and would at least on occasion call out some less-than-above-board judging for house fighters. But that hasn't been true in 10 years, as pk500 notes.

Re: Showtime, I'm not sure I would agree that their announcers are homers for the network fighters, but I think it's more of a function of there not being a whole lot of competitive fights on the network due to promoter-induced mismatches or whatever else. I'm kind of a Showtime announcing crew homer myself, though, since I just enjoy Mauro, Al, and Paulie (and Steve Farhood) as an announcing team.

ESPN has got to get rid of Mark Kriegel and reinstate Teddy Atlas to the analyst chair. But of course they won't, for exactly the reasons pk and allBthere described. Atlas, while over-the-top and excessive at times, will call a spade a spade when the situation arises. He will criticize fighters, promoters, cards, judges, colleagues, and anyone else, regardless of political or financial allegiances. It would not surprise me if Top Rank had something to do with getting Atlas out of the analyst chair directly, given how unpredictable he can be and how he has a rep for not being a company guy. But ESPN's boxing telecasts are so much the worse for not having Atlas doing the fights.

[pk500]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Re: Showtime, I'm not sure I would agree that their announcers are homers for the network fighters, but I think it's more of a function of there not being a whole lot of competitive fights on the network due to promoter-induced mismatches or whatever else. I'm kind of a Showtime announcing crew homer myself, though, since I just enjoy Mauro, Al, and Paulie (and Steve Farhood) as an announcing team.

Showtime's top team is definitely in the can for the "house" fighters. They're just not as adamant about it as HBO's team, especially Max. But the house fighter can be getting pummeled, and Mauro Ranallo -- whom I think is quite overrated -- will still talk up the fighter as if he was the love child of Ray Leonard and Willie Pep.

Regarding Mauro, if not for the stupid puns and WWE-style inflections of his delivery, would we even know or like him? Probably not. He's too much sizzle and not enough steak.

Showtime's best team is its "B" team, the ShoBox team. Barry Tompkins is now the best active PBP announcer in the sport since Lampley is (hopefully only temporarily) on the shelf. He just calmly calls the fights and points out what he observes, deftly passing it to his color team of the excellent Steve Farhood and Raul Marquez. Farhood and Marquez deliver the same kind of understated, studious observations as Tompkins. They're an excellent trio.

ESPN has got to get rid of Mark Kriegel and reinstate Teddy Atlas to the analyst chair. But of course they won't, for exactly the reasons pk and allBthere described. Atlas, while over-the-top and excessive at times, will call a spade a spade when the situation arises. He will criticize fighters, promoters, cards, judges, colleagues, and anyone else, regardless of political or financial allegiances. It would not surprise me if Top Rank had something to do with getting Atlas out of the analyst chair directly, given how unpredictable he can be and how he has a rep for not being a company guy. But ESPN's boxing telecasts are so much the worse for not having Atlas doing the fights.

No, no, no. Can't disagree more. Teddy won't toe the company line. Refreshing, no doubt. But he has transformed his iconoclasm and strong observations into a ranting crusade in which the end result is more food for Teddy's ego. The guy bursts blood vessels just far too often, and it detracts from the broadcast.

I would love to see another trainer fill Teddy's role in more of a role like Emmanuel Steward on HBO. Manny forgot more about boxing than anyone on the broadcast team, but he shared his knowledge in a congenial fashion. Still, he was pointed when needed. He was pure class on the air, while Teddy is becoming more and more pure crass.

Joe Goosen was a very pleasant addition to the latest DAZN shows. He knows his stuff as a trainer and made some really good points during the telecast without forcing the viewer to ask, "Did this guy forget to take his meds today?"

It's a shame DAZN continues to extend the charade that Ray Leonard is a good announcer with something to say. Ray Leonard is the light beer of boxing analysts -- less filling, tastes like sh*t.

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

No, no, no. Can't disagree more. Teddy won't toe the company line. Refreshing, no doubt. But he has transformed his iconoclasm and strong observations into a ranting crusade in which the end result is more food for Teddy's ego. The guy bursts blood vessels just far too often, and it detracts from the broadcast.

I would love to see another trainer fill Teddy's role in more of a role like Emmanuel Steward on HBO. Manny forgot more about boxing than anyone on the broadcast team, but he shared his knowledge in a congenial fashion. Still, he was pointed when needed. He was pure class on the air, while Teddy is becoming more and more pure crass.

Can't agree more. My opinion of Teddy has gone from irritation to repulsion.

[pietasterp]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Showtime's top team is definitely in the can for the "house" fighters. They're just not as adamant about it as HBO's team, especially Max. But the house fighter can be getting pummeled, and Mauro Ranallo -- whom I think is quite overrated -- will still talk up the fighter as if he was the love child of Ray Leonard and Willie Pep.

Regarding Mauro, if not for the stupid puns and WWE-style inflections of his delivery, would we even know or like him? Probably not. He's too much sizzle and not enough steak.

Showtime's best team is its "B" team, the ShoBox team. Barry Tompkins is now the best active PBP announcer in the sport since Lampley is (hopefully only temporarily) on the shelf. He just calmly calls the fights and points out what he observes, deftly passing it to his color team of the excellent Steve Farhood and Raul Marquez. Farhood and Marquez deliver the same kind of understated, studious observations as Tompkins. They're an excellent trio.

I'd have to agree that Mauro is a bit of a lightweight (with apologies to Sweet P) when it comes to actual boxing, but his rapport with his colleagues is what makes the team enjoyable for me. It's a good mix of excitability (maybe over-the-top in Mauro's case) tempered by the avuncular Al Bernstein and with some inside-baseball analysis from the good-on-the-mic Paulie. But I would agree that the ShoBox Next Generation crew of Tompkins, Farhood, and El Diamante is as good or better. That crew is also beyond reproach.

No, no, no. Can't disagree more. Teddy won't toe the company line. Refreshing, no doubt. But he has transformed his iconoclasm and strong observations into a ranting crusade in which the end result is more food for Teddy's ego. The guy bursts blood vessels just far too often, and it detracts from the broadcast.

I would love to see another trainer fill Teddy's role in more of a role like Emmanuel Steward on HBO. Manny forgot more about boxing than anyone on the broadcast team, but he shared his knowledge in a congenial fashion. Still, he was pointed when needed. He was pure class on the air, while Teddy is becoming more and more pure crass.

Joe Goosen was a very pleasant addition to the latest DAZN shows. He knows his stuff as a trainer and made some really good points during the telecast without forcing the viewer to ask, "Did this guy forget to take his meds today?"

It's a shame DAZN continues to extend the charade that Ray Leonard is a good announcer with something to say. Ray Leonard is the light beer of boxing analysts -- less filling, tastes like sh*t.

Can't agree more. My opinion of Teddy has gone from irritation to repulsion.

I totally understand your points of view and I am definitely in the minority about Atlas. Your criticisms are completely accurate, and I do think sometime in the past 5-10 years he went off the rails into self-caricature. Having said that, if my alternatives are Mark Krieger or Teddy, I'll take Teddy every time. Teddy at least occasionally has good insights, and even if the cartoonish rants bug you, at the end of the day it's entertainment and Atlas at least has the potential to make an otherwise boring fight interesting by just hammering the fighters, card, matchup, effort, or whatever else.

I think Atlas is like Don Cherry (for you "Hockey Night in Canada" aficionados); everyone knows he's sort of a joke at this point, but if you're entertained by him, so much the better. For what it's worth, I still enjoy "Coaches Corner", although maybe that says more about me than about Cherry or Atlas...

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

It was no different in the final years of HBO Boxing, during which the formerly excellent and objective Max Kellerman became a total shill for the predetermined HBO narrative, regardless of what was unfolding in the ring.

I don't know that Kellerman does that. I thought homerism was most prevalent on HBO when Lampley was cheerleading Oscar and Arturo Gatti. I think Max's need to be right is his biggest vice which is really showing itself with his continued diagnosis that Tom Brady is severely diminishing ("falling off the cliff" in his words), a point that he started over two and a half years ago ("Brady is a bum") and continues even after Brady's very recent dissection of his pick in the AFC (Chargers).

My most recent memory of a Max boxing call is Kovalez-Alvarez with Max giving Alvarez more credit than he deserved up until the final round when he concedes Kovalez's power was turning the fight. Shortly after that "Storm" stuns "Krusher" with a windup right to the temple that stuns the boxing world. I did think that he was pro-Canelo in the second GGG fight.

About five weeks ago ESPN signed Kellerman to a multiyear extension that runs through 2025 that includes his current First Take gig, a weekly boxing show, and a "prominent role" in ESPN's boxing coverage where he will preside over the broadcast desk position in the arena, rather than as an infight boxing analyst.

[JayBee74]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

Dmitry Bivol-Joe Smith March 9th on DAZN.

Artur Beterbiev leaving DAZN to sign with ESPN.

[pk500]

Re: Boxing Off-Topic

I think Atlas is like Don Cherry (for you "Hockey Night in Canada" aficionados); everyone knows he's sort of a joke at this point, but if you're entertained by him, so much the better. For what it's worth, I still enjoy "Coaches Corner", although maybe that says more about me than about Cherry or Atlas...

Excellent analogy between Teddy and Grapes. I'm tired of both!