CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

**Dave_S** · 03-19-2017, 11:14 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

cage strikes are outta control, but I think that's obvious and is a different discussion anyways

**aholbert32** · 03-19-2017, 11:21 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by Dave_S

cage strikes are outta control, but I think that's obvious and is a different discussion anyways

Different discussion but I think online guys exaggerate the issue a little. There are 250 fighters in the game and the large majority dont have cage strikes. When you are only fighting people that typically use the top 10% of fighters and alot of that 10% have cage strikes....the issue seems a little bigger than it is.

**Generative James** · 03-19-2017, 11:30 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

I definitely like Kick Catches and think they should be in the game but as a different mechanic entirely NOT as a Parry only if your opponent has low stamina. Catches and Parries are completely different things. In real life, fighters can catch a kick even when their opponent isn't gassed, especially if they are being predictable, so it shouldn't be tied to stamina.

Also, any kick that is caught, has to actually land first, so you should incur damage even when you catch a kick.

A caught kick could lead to different things for different fighters: clinch, sweep the leg, single leg takedown, or even a strike. All with the possibility of failure, a caught kick shouldn't guarantee anything.

I like the punch catch on the ground but don't think it's a good idea to have standing punch catches into the clinch. I doesn't look realistic and I can't think of even one real world example. Sugatas videos do not inspire me. Perhaps if someone had examples from an actual MMA match.

An easier solution might be to just make clinching a little easier for a short window after whiffed strikes.

**MartialMind** · 03-20-2017, 01:38 AM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

I personally can only get behind an idea like this, if there are enough references from actual fights and so far i haven't seen one from you.

I appreciate you posting training videos to try to explain your idea, i do, but it's just that, training videos. What a fighter can do in training and what a fighter can do in a fight are two completely different things.

The most compelling argument you can launch is one that includes references from LIVE fights, without that i apologize but i just cannot be down with this. So if you can provide ACTUAL real life examples from live fights, then awesome. But please no more training videos. It really doesn't help at all.

Now i support a more natural clinch entry, something similar to what we have ACTUALLY seen in fights. Talking about the single collar clinch specifically, the current entry we have in the game is weird. We don't see fighters just walk up to the other and grab a single collar clinch. If anyone here knows of a fight where a fighter just walks up and grabs a single collar, please show me.

Most times when the single collar clinch is initiated, fighters just tend to end up there. Either because their strikes collide or they over extend and fall into each other. Another way i mostly see fighters end up in the single collar clinch is from Over/Under. DC uses this very well.... He gets you in Over/Under and transitions to the single collar clinch.

Example:

Personally, i think this is how we should end up in single collar the most in EA UFC. It should be a transition from the Over/Under.

Now... Something else....
I've talked about this before with other Gamechangers and we thought it might be good if a specific strike when thrown at thesame time by both opponents results in a clinch. A fighter doesn't intend to end up in the clinch every single time he does. Sometimes, it just happens depending on what strike he throws and what strike his opponent threw. We are talking about the single collar clinch here. What i've seen most is overhand punches resulting in the clinch.

Example:

Jones and Shogun both go for an Overhand at thesame time and they end up in the single Collar clinch. I can show more examples of this happening in fights if someone wants. I think this should be another way we end up in single Collar. Someway to simulate just falling into the clinch. Maybe when both fighters throw an overhand at thesame time, or close to thesame time, their arms hook and they end up in the single collar clinch. It'll feel very natural, scrappy, and chaotic like most clinch transitions feel.

Now the next one is something i've been thinking about.... I think it's a good idea but i welcome criticism on it.

Based on what i've seen. The single collar clinch is NOT a control position. This means, this is not a position where the intention is to HOLD the opponent. UNLESS you're holding him against the cage. But in the middle of the cage, the goal here as we've seen in fights, is to land quick powerful strikes fast, because for the most part, the single collar clinch breaks very very easily.

This is why we see DC for example, throw a looping punch, hold on the back of the opponents head briefly, land something big, like an uppercut and then it breaks. We need to be able to do this in the game.

Here's an example of what i'm talking about first.

Notice how smooth that transition into single collar was. DC throws, throws, lingers his left arm and grabs the back of Gustafssons head and immediately starts unloading uppercuts. I really love that and we see fighters enter the single collar clinch like that a lot.

My thoughts are.... What if holding down a punch button rather just pressing it, lingers the arm and if you're close enough you grab the back of the opponents head for a short moment. In that time you can attempt a transition, or go for a strike... If you land the strike successfully the clinch breaks.

This way, like the DC example above... you could throw a jab, straight, left hook but linger the left hook input and instead of a hook, the hand opens and you turn it into a grab to the back of the head... From there you can hold on for a moment before it automatically breaks.

Just an idea.

Either way.... The punch parry/deflect/catch whatever into the clinch idea would have a much stronger leg to stand on if it is backed by real life examples. I would love to see some.

**Supreme_Bananas** · 03-20-2017, 01:39 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by SUGATA

I think Parries are OK now in EA UFC 2:
- hard input that that makes you opened w/block for a bit after failed Parry
- tight window (6-11 frames) which depends on stamina and require skill and reaction to succeed

- in EA UFC 1 Parry was unavailable after receiving Hit, in UFC 2 we can Parry but Parry window is much shorter and it's input conflicts w Blockibg - and this is very right decision, because now we can to Parry in mid of Combo

1. This game is 30fps. 11 frames on a 30fps window is not tight at all, and I'm pretty sure the window is much larger than 11 frames. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that the parry window "adjusts" itself to the attack thrown, although I have no proof

2. Why is this a good decision? To me it makes no sense at all to be able to parry mid combo if the previous attacks hit, you can't do that in VF either.

Originally posted by SUGATA

Update 18.03.2017:

Dudes, I am always for constructive criticism b/c it helps to evolve the idea.
But please post your arguments.
1. Clinch is OP and unbalanced in UFC2 so no more getting into Clinch moves for UFC3.... I think better to make Clinch more balanced in UFC3.
2. Parry is not ok now after all patches in UFC2. Please tell me why do you think so?
3. I don't know even one who complain about ability to Catch punch into Clinch in UFC UD, no one... and as many said the Stand up Striking is that one thing which is better in UD.

Point 2:

Because parries are still much too easy to perform, there's still hardly any penalty for missing them and the rewards are still much too big

Point 3

This was because of 3 things:

1. The timing windows was very short to catch punches
2. You could only catch power punches, hooks and uppers. Jabs and straights were uncatchable
3. It was much, much harder to keep people in the clinch for an extended period of time in UD3. In UFC2, some players are so good in single collar that they can keep you there for the whole round

**SUGATA** · 03-20-2017, 05:26 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by MartialMind

My thoughts are.... What if holding down a punch button rather just pressing it, lingers the arm and if you're close enough you grab the back of the opponents head for a short moment. In that time you can attempt a transition, or go for a strike... If you land the strike successfully the clinch breaks.

This way, like the DC example above... you could throw a jab, straight, left hook but linger the left hook input and instead of a hook, the hand opens and you turn it into a grab to the back of the head... From there you can hold on for a moment before it automatically breaks.

Just an idea.

I dont think punching into clinch by keep holdng punch button is a good idea.
Because people here are complaining about OP'ed and unbalanced Clinch, so they want to decrease Clinch entries.

Your idea: keep holding punch button to end pushing/striking hand into Clinch (as i get it):
- does not require skill or timing
- not depends on conditions so can be useful constantly during all the time
- has too easy input, no skill
- opponent has not any counters against this move at all (No Yomi 3rd level)
Results: such Clinch entries becomes a spam together with striking spam.

My idea (which is not really mine, but based mostly on the current "Catch kick" mechanics): keep Parry input which _in catching conditions (low stamina or damaged hand)_ ending in Clinch entry with Parry window 6-12 frames and getting hit during it causes additional dmg bonus (FBHR)
+ require precise timing
+ harder input
+ depends on catching conditions
+ opponent has many ways to counter it (trap to the trap - Yomi 3rd level).
Results: Clinch entries are not abused but becomes a pro tool, and wow-moment especially in savings during Finish the fight.

Here are the examples from REAL FIGHTS as you asked for:

 Magomedov – Dariush:
1:34 – Block w Sway into Clinch
3:50 - Evade into MT
<iframe src="//vk.com/video_ext.php?oid=-81498205&id=456239828&hash=e76359ecf1e62180&hd=2" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="480" width="853"></iframe>

Demetrius Jonson – Bagautdinov:
13:40 – Evade to DU
24:16 – Block and Evade into OU
<iframe src="//vk.com/video_ext.php?oid=27550046&id=171638712&hash=150bc c24bd338c84&hd=2" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="480" width="853"></iframe>

In boxing:
Using evades into Clinch under opponent’s incoming punch:
<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9JRl3OkAJcs" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

In MT:
Going into Clinch under incoming punch.
<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jhJKpSJrMK4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

1:40 – into DU and Throw
2:58 – deflect into back clinch with throw
<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sqCPn4-eB5A" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

As an NEW IDEA: give us the ability of defending from “CATCHING into Clinch” via catch Punch or Kicks by pressing JUST Catching animation started in tight window (5 frames) R1 to push away when “catching” punch and R2 when “catching” kick.
Here is an example of clinch entry defense:
<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_7ps0RVpQU4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

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**SUGATA** · 03-20-2017, 05:39 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by Supreme_Bananas

1. This game is 30fps. 11 frames on a 30fps window is not tight at all, and I'm pretty sure the window is much larger than 11 frames. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that the parry window "adjusts" itself to the attack thrown, although I have no proof

2. Why is this a good decision? To me it makes no sense at all to be able to parry mid combo if the previous attacks hit, you can't do that in VF either.



Point 2:

Because parries are still much too easy to perform, there's still hardly any penalty for missing them and the rewards are still much too big

Point 3

This was because of 3 things:

1. The timing windows was very short to catch punches
2. You could only catch power punches, hooks and uppers. Jabs and straights were uncatchable
3. It was much, much harder to keep people in the clinch for an extended period of time in UD3. In UFC2, some players are so good in single collar that they can keep you there for the whole round

1) Do you know that EA UFC 3 will not be 60fps? I hope it will be.

2) Parry window is TIGHT now, especially when you low on stamina. I am talking about 10 frames of MY 60 fps feeling. So in the game with 30 fps it will be twice less.

3) Parry window depends on your syamina advantage over the opponent, not on his strike type.
You max stamina, the opponent has low stamina = easier to parry/karger window.

4) In VR there are 2 types of strike series:
- natural combo - several strikes in a row are unblockable
- striking series - possible to block or even reversal (parry) strike

VF is an ARCADE fighting which based on numbers and frame data.
EA UFC is a fight sim, which based on momentum, analog reactions and amage and stuns (which are analog, i.e. different each time in _ideal_)

So, there are must not to be a guaranteed LONG Combos in EA UFC. As we dont have it IRL MMA.

5) About UD clinch entries by parry:
1. EA UFC has even shorter parry window now
2. Yes, you are right quick weak strikes were unparriable in UD.
> Good idea to dot he same for EA UFC 3: parriable and not parriable strikes into Clinch > more mindgame and traps.
3. Yes, you are right, Grappling block in UD was possible max during 2-3 grapple break attempts, 3-4th attempt (transition) was successful > so we were forced to use strikes, reversals and changing positions and - i dont like it because in real MMA is possible to hold for long in one position.

**SUGATA** · 03-20-2017, 05:48 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by Generative James

I definitely like Kick Catches and think they should be in the game but as a different mechanic entirely NOT as a Parry only if your opponent has low stamina. Catches and Parries are completely different things. In real life, fighters can catch a kick even when their opponent isn't gassed, especially if they are being predictable, so it shouldn't be tied to stamina.

Also, any kick that is caught, has to actually land first, so you should incur damage even when you catch a kick.

A caught kick could lead to different things for different fighters: clinch, sweep the leg, single leg takedown, or even a strike. All with the possibility of failure, a caught kick shouldn't guarantee anything.

I like the punch catch on the ground but don't think it's a good idea to have standing punch catches into the clinch. I doesn't look realistic and I can't think of even one real world example. Sugatas videos do not inspire me. Perhaps if someone had examples from an actual MMA match.

An easier solution might be to just make clinching a little easier for a short window after whiffed strikes.

There is onle ONE problem and the difference of Clinch from TD attempt:
TD attempt has Transition meter and it based on Dynamic grappling mechanics (DGM); it means it cane be modified by many factors like missed strrike or kick and so on, giving us GA for easy or guaranteed TD.
...
Clinch attempt DOES NOT have Transition meter, it is instant, it is not based on DGM, so it can not be modified or boosted.

> Possible solution is to bring Transition meter/DGM to Clinch attempt with ALL possible GA factors which on their max can lead to unblockable Clinch entry.

- whiffed opponent;s strike gives me GA
- opponent received hit > GA to me
- momentum scenarious > GA to me

BUT

there is one more problem - Clinch attempt (grabbing motion) can be interrupted by any strike even late strike. W/o Striking advantage (i have + frames advantage from dealing hit stuns to the opponent) to my follow up move over the opponent - it will be useless... because punching mashers will crush all your Clinch attempts by tapping punches with periodically pressed L2 body modifer to mix up = random, w/o logic and game plan.

**TheGentlemanGhost** · 03-20-2017, 07:38 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Parrying has to become more defensive than a counter opportunity and then the clinch needs to be tuned up itself. Then this whole catch punch into clinch has to have a pretty small window or somewhat easy to get out of depending on the fighter, it doesn't happen enough irl to see it happen multiple times a fight. IMO it's more important to have kicks have this effect since most times it's the kicking that gets strikers in trouble against wrestling and not punching.

**Dave_S** · 03-20-2017, 09:45 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by TheGentlemanGhost

Parrying has to become more defensive than a counter opportunity and then the clinch needs to be tuned up itself. Then this whole catch punch into clinch has to have a pretty small window or somewhat easy to get out of depending on the fighter, it doesn't happen enough irl to see it happen multiple times a fight. IMO it's more important to have kicks have this effect since most times it's the kicking that gets strikers in trouble against wrestling and not punching.

If you can't counter off of parry there should still be reward for a successful parry over hugging high block.

I swear if ea made it so that block and parry button had to be pressed together in a very short window it would solve many people's complaints. not many people parry that way now.

**SUGATA** · 03-21-2017, 03:00 AM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by Dave_S

If you can't counter off of parry there should still be reward for a successful parry over hugging high block.

I swear if ea made it so that block and parry button had to be pressed together in a very short window it would solve many people's complaints. not many people parry that way now.

You do t like the current Parry input?
I think current Parry input is good - it require to repress Block to make it active again, this opens the window to strike after missed Parry when opponent is not fast enough.
The only thing needs to be done - bring Counter window for the opponent during mine Parry attempt, so getting hit during my Parry attempt will cause more dmg and possibly FBHR based on the final dmg value.

**Dave_S** · 03-21-2017, 03:52 AM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by SUGATA

You do t like the current Parry input?
I think current Parry input is good - it require to repress Block to make it active again, this opens the window to strike after missed Parry when opponent is not fast enough.
The only thing needs to be done - bring Counter window for the opponent during mine Parry attempt, so getting hit during my Parry attempt will cause more dmg and possibly FBHR based on the final dmg value.

I don't have a real problem with it, but I think it's probably way too easy to parry if you are hugging block. I'm guessing 95% of the time when I parry I hit block and parry buttons at the exact same time. I don't hold block so when ea made it where you have to hit block again after missed parry didn't effect me at all.

I notice a few players parry the way I do, you can just see hands twitching high or low. The timing is probably the same but it seems a fair amount more difficult than parrying while holding block.

**SUGATA** · 03-21-2017, 09:31 AM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by Dave_S

I don't have a real problem with it, but I think it's probably way too easy to parry if you are hugging block. I'm guessing 95% of the time when I parry I hit block and parry buttons at the exact same time. I don't hold block so when ea made it where you have to hit block again after missed parry didn't effect me at all.

I notice a few players parry the way I do, you can just see hands twitching high or low. The timing is probably the same but it seems a fair amount more difficult than parrying while holding block.

I like your style and prefer to use it by myself (do not hold Block 80% of the time, and use parry not from Block holding)!
This is the common way to fight IRL MMA.

But in EA UFC online most players are turtles w Block and walking fwd - bwd. This looks terrible and unrealistic.

Devs made a solution to this in EA UFC 2:
+ holding Block gives your opponent GA
+ holding Block slow down Stamina recovery by 50% and slow down walking speed a bit
+ holding Block forces 10 frames delay in switching Block level

BUT

- Side steps and Dashes with holding Block - do not affects stamina and speed/distance at all!
- parries from holded Block are the same

I think this could be solved by:
> You must NOT to be able to Block during Side steps and Dashes at all, as we are in Sway!

> Parry from holded block - must to have 30% shorter parring window
Instant parry (as you do) - will not have parring window cut, and will be more effective than from turtling Block.

**Dave_S** · 03-21-2017, 04:27 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

I wanted to post this in parry thread 37 but since it's locked this place seems good enough.

I hear a lot about parries giving free counters, but I'm not seeing it. At least with head strikes it seems you can parry counter back or slip the counter your opponent throws after a successful parry.

**Supreme_Bananas** · 03-21-2017, 04:32 PM

Re: CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

Originally posted by Dave_S

I wanted to post this in parry thread 37 but since it's locked this place seems good enough.

I hear a lot about parries giving free counters, but I'm not seeing it. At least with head strikes it seems you can parry counter back or slip the counter your opponent throws after a successful parry.

Yeah I had no idea what was going on in your video but I can absolutely guarantee you that if Lawler or Woodley parry anything they get a free overhand in return. I'm pretty sure both of you reacted late off the parry

CATCH PUNCH into Clinch by Parry for EA UFC 3

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