Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[aholbert32]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I’d love to hear that argument.

How can you predict mid combo?

It’s a combination of both. Right now we can only predict

Alot of it is predicting though. Martial didnt post this here but a few days ago he showed the GCs a couple of clips of Anderson's "great" head movement and he pointed out that alot of it is him anticipating a strike (not a specific strike just a strike) and reacting not seeing a strike and reacting.

Now his reflexes were awesome back in the day so even when he guessed wrong, he was only getting glanced by a strike. Now he's older and his reflexes are slower and he's getting hit flush alot more when his guesses are wrong.

[Nugget7211]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Alot of it is predicting though. Martial didnt post this here but a few days ago he showed the GCs a couple of clips of Anderson's "great" head movement and he pointed out that alot of it is him anticipating a strike (not a specific strike just a strike) and reacting not seeing a strike and reacting.

Now his reflexes were awesome back in the day so even when he guessed wrong, he was only getting glanced by a strike. Now he's older and his reflexes are slower and he's getting hit flush alot more when his guesses are wrong.

Why is great in quotes? Anderson did have great head movement, if you said great "reactive" head movement, I'd get it.

[Nugget7211]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I’d love to hear that argument.

How can you predict mid combo?

It’s a combination of both. Right now we can only predict

Preemptive doesn't necessarily equate to predictive. All it means is doing it before you see the strike, it could be a guess or it could be predictive based on prior exchanges in the fight or an educated guess based on the mixups your opponent has been using.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Alot of it is predicting though. Martial didnt post this here but a few days ago he showed the GCs a couple of clips of Anderson's "great" head movement and he pointed out that alot of it is him anticipating a strike (not a specific strike just a strike) and reacting not seeing a strike and reacting.

Now his reflexes were awesome back in the day so even when he guessed wrong, he was only getting glanced by a strike. Now he's older and his reflexes are slower and he's getting hit flush alot more when his guesses are wrong.

Sounds like we agree it’s both?

And sorry strikes arent randomly anticipated. You react to a person’s movements then try to predict. Feints work because of your reaction to a person’s movement. Essentially a flinch

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Preemptive doesn't necessarily equate to predictive. All it means is doing it before you see the strike, it could be a guess or it could be predictive based on prior exchanges in the fight or an educated guess based on the mixups your opponent has been using.

And while I agree that is used at times I disagree with it being that particular sequence.

Like Silva’s are clearly trained reactions. Most fighters try not to overthink when fighting

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

You leaned back on his uppercut, leaned left, right and back on straights in a rhythmic fashion and then countered. Pretty sure that's possible in UFC3 Haz..

The timing of your inputs would just feel off because it's not as responsive. But technically you could produce the exact same visual with preemptive rather than reactive inputs.

And that's the problem. When I do the same motions in UFC 3, the input lag, or headmovement stat lag, or dead zone, whatever it is, prevents the movement from happening at the right time, so the movement and timing is totally off. And to compound the problem, the limited 4 points of angle, cause the actual animation to appear hurky jerky, popping from 1 point to the next with limited fluidity.

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I'd argue strongly that those slips he posted from UFC2 were also preemptive and not reactive.... Just far easier to pull off something like that in UFC2 than in UFC3, and i'm perfectly fine with that.

It's a combination of predictive and responsive.

There are many different movements patterns, but they can be seamlessly interchanged within each other mid movement mode.

So you can predict, or set up the opponent to throw a certain strike or combo, but mid mode, you can switch into other modes, if you need to.

This technique combines predictive gameplay, and reactionary gameplay.


The gif of Tyson earlier shows this perfectly. He is sliding between a left and right slip, subtly, keeping his head in motion so you can react faster. Once he sees a tell, he initiates an appropriate movement pattern, predicting the follow up of the tell, and unleashes a counter.

It's a mix of predictive and reactive.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Alot of it is predicting though. Martial didnt post this here but a few days ago he showed the GCs a couple of clips of Anderson's "great" head movement and he pointed out that alot of it is him anticipating a strike (not a specific strike just a strike) and reacting not seeing a strike and reacting.

Now his reflexes were awesome back in the day so even when he guessed wrong, he was only getting glanced by a strike. Now he's older and his reflexes are slower and he's getting hit flush alot more when his guesses are wrong.

That's exactly how Weidman KOed him. Silva mostly predicts his head movement based on left-right-left-right patterns. Weidman mixed in that same side backhand before landing the left hook to knock him out. He folded him past effective head moving range and caused him to make an error in pattern judgement.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I would definitely recommend everyone take a peak at this article.

https://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-...-head-movement


“And now same with head movement. Most people learn head movement as some kind of secret technique or pattern as how to move the head so that it can avoid jabs, crosses, hooks, etc. And then you start practicing this movement in the mirror or on the slip rope, right? And then you get in the ring, and the technique goes out the window because your goal is just to get the hell out of the way. The way you slipped in practice doesn’t always resemble the way you slip in a real fight.”

You cant simply predict or anticipate every strike or angle a strike is thrown. There is no set in stone rock/paper/scissors for every strike vs head movement.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I would definitely recommend everyone take a peak at this article.

https://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-...-head-movement


“And now same with head movement. Most people learn head movement as some kind of secret technique or pattern as how to move the head so that it can avoid jabs, crosses, hooks, etc. And then you start practicing this movement in the mirror or on the slip rope, right? And then you get in the ring, and the technique goes out the window because your goal is just to get the hell out of the way. The way you slipped in practice doesn’t always resemble the way you slip in a real fight.”

You cant simply predict or anticipate every strike or angle a strike is thrown. There is no set in stone rock/paper/scissors for every strike vs head movement.

Do you want to evade an uppercut by ducking into it?

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Do you want to evade an uppercut by ducking into it?

You can actually duck down at an angle to avoid an uppercut so yes..

Did you know that leaning straight back is a poor counter against straights?

If the jab is followed up with a step in straight you’re screwed.

Hooks can actually hit ducking opponent.

A straight can land on someone slipping to the side if it’s the same side as my rear hand. I can even land my lead straight if I take a step outside your lead foot.

I’m probably blowing your mind right now.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

1- Would you prefer if the ducking in the game looked like putting the head forward?

No. There are functional differences between leaning forward and ducking.

I'd love it for R3 to make your fighter lean forward though.

Strengths
- Leaning your upper body forward means fists are closer to your opponent by a few inches without actually stepping in their direction. This is threatening.

- Because you're leaning forward, the distance of your lean back increases compared to when you're standing straight up. This makes gauging distances difficult for your opponent and you can use it to pull your opponent in.

It's why BJ flinches and then throws a jab that wasn't even close to connecting.


Weaknesses
- Your head is closer to your opponent, so you're playing a dangerous game
- It invites kicks.

2- Would you prefer if we could block while slipping in UFC 3? (I'm on the fence about this, myself.)

Ideally, yes. In FNC you could block while moving your head. But doing so would significantly lower the range and effectiveness of your sways.



Fighters do that in real life as well. Case in point Robbie Lawler:




That said, I don't know how to make that work with the current RPS system.

These are the only things actually missing in UFC 3, from the stuff you've mentioned. They're not eve close to providing as much meta complexity as the stuff we have in UFC 3.

Again, with all due respect, you really do not know what you're talking about.

The intricacies of head-movement can't be replicated with a 4 directional, rigid, RPS-esque system. For almost the same reason you can't replicate proper footwork with only 4 directions of movement at set speeds & distances.

It shouldn't be that hard to wrap your mind around.

[edit]

And that's the problem. When I do the same motions in UFC 3, the input lag, or headmovement stat lag, or dead zone, whatever it is, prevents the movement from happening at the right time, so the movement and timing is totally off. And to compound the problem, the limited 4 points of angle, cause the actual animation to appear hurky jerky, popping from 1 point to the next with limited fluidity.

I agree, but your question was "Can you do this in UFC3". The answer is yes. But not in the way any of us are satisfied with.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

DaisukEasy thank you for showing them what leaning forward is in striking. That’s actually how you do a pull counter. You lean forward to create the illusion you are closer then you pull back all the way so they over extend.

Simply leaning back like we do in the game would get you murdered in real life

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I'd argue strongly that those slips he posted from UFC2 were also preemptive and not reactive.... Just far easier to pull off something like that in UFC2 than in UFC3, and i'm perfectly fine with that.

I feel like I need to point out that nothing about the clip I posted is "Easy"...

It takes an insane amount of practice, rhythm, timing, skill, and technical knowledge to pull something like that off. I'm not just spinning my stick in circles and getting lucky. That is technical precision, and it's not easy.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I feel like I need to point out that nothing about the clip I posted is "Easy"...

It takes an insane amount of practice, rhythm, timing, skill, and technical knowledge to pull something like that off. I'm not just spinning my stick in circles and getting lucky. That is technical precision, and it's not easy.

He said easier. Not easy.