Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Altair does not understand why people would argue in favor of removing meters, he likes them for reasons X, Y & Z. I hold the exact opposite position. Isn't it possible for us to debate one another passionately without being considered hostile?

Disagreements often come down to at least one person not understanding the matter.

I dare say this is not a case, though. I have summarized the heart of the matter long ago. There have been many repertitions and questions since then. But this subject isn't even that complicated. I'm glad at least some guys could easily understand my point.

I see this as a matter of taste... and I don't say this often.

[Sivo]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

My main problem with this is the fact that visual cues just don't seem to be built into UFC3, You need obvious body language for multiple stages of stamina loss not just speed decreases, the new low stamina animations are good but for this to work it would need much more detail not just heavyweight stance or whatever repurposed animation it is for most people to notice it.

If u want to add in an option to turn off your opponents meters or search for other people with it turned off, i wouldn't have a problem that and they could use the numbers from there to see how popular it could be, i just feel too many players will be lost with it set as default.

edit: Would be happier with paper doll or slight adaptation as meters do look ugly

[Haz____]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I don't think we need anything but a simple Paper Doll dmg hud.

I really can't understand why anyone would want there to be stamina meters, and block meters, and grapple meters, and damage meters, and transition meters. I mean, to me, that all takes away from the immersion so much.

We got more meters than a Street Fighter game at this point.



I really just can't wrap my head around it.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Disagreements often come down to at least one person not understanding the matter.

I agree.

I dare say this is not a case, though. I have summarized the heart of the matter long ago. There have been many repertitions and questions since then. But this subject isn't even that complicated. I'm glad at least some guys could easily understand my point.

I see this as a matter of taste... and I don't say this often.

Contrary to a certain Monkey's opinion, I actually I don't think I'm fundamentally right on this issue. I can't be because as you said, it's a matter of taste. There's nothing to be right about.

That said, to me it seemed like the reasons you gave for liking meters could be used to argue in favor of other things like GA meters, scorecards and a bunch of other things you don't necessarily want.

That means one of three things:

1) I'm misunderstanding you
- Plausible

2) Your argument is incomplete and with further elaboration it'll make sense to me
- Plausible

3) You're special pleading or at least can't pinpoint between certain meters and others in a way that helps me understand your position better
- Possible, but entirely fine because it's your opinion. We're not arguing facts. You like one thing, you don't like another.

I kept asking because I hoped we'd reach a point where I could actually fully understand where it is you were coming from. We just didn't really get anywhere. You thought I kept repeating a question you'd already answered and to me you kept misunderstanding the question to the point where both of us grew tired. We silently agreed to disagree and moved on.

Passionate and inquisitive as I can be sometimes, it's never my intention to be hostile. Hopefully you didn't experience it that way either.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I agree.



Contrary to a certain Monkey's opinion, I actually I don't think I'm fundamentally right on this issue. I can't be because as you said, it's a matter of taste. There's nothing to be right about.

That said, to me it seemed like the reasons you gave for liking meters could be used to argue in favor of other things like GA meters, scorecards and a bunch of other things you don't necessarily want.

That means one of three things:

1) I'm misunderstanding you
- Plausible

2) Your argument is incomplete and with further elaboration it'll make sense to me
- Plausible

3) You're special pleading or at least can't pinpoint between certain meters and others in a way that helps me understand your position better
- Possible, but entirely fine because it's your opinion. We're not arguing facts. You like one thing, you don't like another.

I kept asking because I hoped we'd reach a point where I could actually fully understand where it is you were coming from. We just didn't really get anywhere. You thought I kept repeating a question you'd already answered and to me you kept misunderstanding the question to the point where both of us grew tired. We silently agreed to disagree and moved on.

Passionate and inquisitive as I can be sometimes, it's never my intention to be hostile. Hopefully you didn't experience it that way either.

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[Trillz]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

id rather just a paper doll, there is no need to see opponent health meters or stamina.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Am in favour of removing all bars extra, but more visual clues need to be added like heavy breathing, visual damage indicating damage for each area.

But the stamina system has to be changed on the ground first as there isnt enough if any visual clue there and it is quite erratic at times.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

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You're in favor of meters because you believe they deepen the game play by providing players with accurate information to base their immediate decisions on. This is favorable over visual cues and/or the doll model from UFC2 because those are not accurate enough to build nuanced tactics around.

You value game play over realism so long as the game looks authentic. So even though you don't think removing meters would break the game, you value what they bring to the table and wouldn't want them removed even if we get all the visual cues we need to be able to gauge stamina as well as anyone could in real life.

What part am I not understanding?

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Why not remove stamina on the feet and add it on the ground?


Striking stamina and grappling stamina being separate ratings play very nicely into this

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

You're in favor of meters because you believe they deepen the game play by providing players with accurate information to base their immediate decisions on. This is favorable over visual cues and/or the doll model from UFC2 because those are not accurate enough to build nuanced tactics around.

You value game play over realism so long as the game looks authentic. So even though you don't think removing meters would break the game, you value what they bring to the table and wouldn't want them removed even if we get all the visual cues we need to be able to gauge stamina as well as anyone could in real life.

What part am I not understanding?

I'd replace that with "not being optimistic that that is viable". It even go beyond recognizing stamina as well as in real life, because in the game, temp stam has more effects than in real life. It's just part of how it works as an abstraction. It brings variation in an organized way, which irl would likely be accounted by more chaotic variables.

But this ^ is just a detail.

The crux of your misunderstanding is seeing a non-existent contradiction between this position and others, such as being OK with scorecards being hidden, etc. It is very very easy to see contradictions where there are none. If people want to get serious with the contradiction talk, they gotta do the logical calculations to check it out.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I'd replace that with "not being optimistic that that is viable". It even go beyond recognizing stamina as well as in real life, because in the game, temp stam has more effects than in real life. It's just part of how it works as an abstraction. It brings variation in an organized way, which irl would likely be accounted by more chaotic variables.

But this ^ is just a detail.

Noted. But so far so good.

The crux of your misunderstanding is seeing a non-existent contradiction between this position and others, such as being OK with scorecards being hidden, etc.

I never said there's a contradiction between the positions per se. You're allowed and able to prefer one thing over another. All I've said is that your justification for meters works for other additions to the game that would have a similar effect on the game play, though to varying degrees.

If the effect of Stamina meters is favorable, what's your justification for not wanting to include something like grappling advantage meters or scorecards in ranked, which would have a similar effect?

Your answers (paraphrased from memory):

- Because it doesn't affect the game as much as stamina meters."
- I don't mind not having scorecards because we're not taking away information.

Correct so far? Or am I misrepresenting you?

It is very very easy to see contradictions where there are none.

Not really..

If people want to get serious with the contradiction talk, they gotta do the logical calculations to check it out.

I did.

[Sivo]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

can we just stop arguing about semantics, u have added page after page of arguing(that what it looks like to ppl reading) about why he believes wat he beileves, have u thought it might be about how he feels the game plays or will play, this is a game and not real life, not everything has to be explained to the smallest detail, allot of what a game is is how it feels and they're can often be contradictory ideas to make a game work

If we wanted any casuals to post on this topic the chance has gone as only hardcore fans are going to read thru 30 odd pages to keep up with the argument. If u really have such a disagreement with him can u please use private messages as u are having private discussions on a public board and making it difficult for anyone else's ideas to be seen as they keep getting pushed down the pages almost instantly.

I dont normally post anything like this but the amount of pages used just so u can argue about why he believes what he believes is getting ridiculous

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

can we just stop arguing about semantics, u have added page after page of arguing(that what it looks like to ppl reading) about why he believes wat he beileves, have u thought it might be about how he feels the game plays or will play, this is a game and not real life, not everything has to be explained to the smallest detail, allot of what a game is is how it feels and they're can often be contradictory ideas to make a game work

If we wanted any casuals to post on this topic the chance has gone as only hardcore fans are going to read thru 30 odd pages to keep up with the argument. If u really have such a disagreement with him can u please use private messages as u are having private discussions on a public board and making it difficult for anyone else's ideas to be seen as they keep getting pushed down the pages almost instantly.

I dont normally post anything like this but the amount of pages used just so u can argue about why he believes what he believes is getting ridiculous

Solid is a gamechanger who has direct ways to talk to devs though, wanting his take on this specific topic could give us a reason as to why the guy in charge of it is also against it. It's understandable he wants to know more and go further into it. I too have trouble finding his reasons being reasonnable enough(if that makes any sense), although we've come to a agreement that he wouldn't mind having it as a option in rivalry mode.

This option hopefully could then end up being a door for it to be implemented(patched in) in more ways if truely successful, so I'm hoping either the devs talk to each other about it, or that a *cough* certain *cough* GC and others pass the word along.

[Sivo]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

I dont have a problem with most of the discussion but he agreed about the invite only option on page 26 and it hasn't gone anywhere since till the last page where people actually made suggestions again and the poll alone should show the GC's where the forum community stands.

edit: I guess i thought if u can keep your arguments precise and to the point u can persuade more forum users to see your point of view and change the game that way but it seems the tactic is to just persuade one GC and have them do it. Because i have changed my view a liitle, i didn't feel it was worth removing opponents meters because every fighting game i have played has your opponents health and super meters etc to see and it shows u of how good or bad u are doing, but some of the posts make great points that there are advantages and disadvantages with regards to tactics and if more casual forum users where able to find the posts than they may change more minds. I don't think no meters default but there should be an option for on or off.

But i am relativeley new to interacting with game forum's so this may just be how they work

[aholbert32]

Re: Opponent's health, guard and stamina meter bars should be hidden, do you agree?

Solid is a gamechanger who has direct ways to talk to devs though, wanting his take on this specific topic could give us a reason as to why the guy in charge of it is also against it. It's understandable he wants to know more and go further into it. I too have trouble finding his reasons being reasonnable enough(if that makes any sense), although we've come to a agreement that he wouldn't mind having it as a option in rivalry mode.

This option hopefully could then end up being a door for it to be implemented(patched in) in more ways if truely successful, so I'm hoping either the devs talk to each other about it, or that a *cough* certain *cough* GC and others pass the word along.

The game changers talked to the devs about this months ago. Before the beta and it think before the event in August. The large majority of us suggested that they remove the meters. The beta (and likely the retail game) still have meters.

The devs haven’t given us a definitive word on why they kept them in the game but it’s likely because not everyone agrees with the hardcore community when it comes to this. Not everyone wants a hardcore sim. Some people just want a mma game with arcade elements.


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