Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

[1212headkick]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

i asked jens pulver on his stream last night about circling out and he agreed. he said distance fighting isnt realistic.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

i asked jens pulver on his stream last night about circling out and he agreed. he said distance fighting isnt realistic.

I dont think anyone disagrees

The question is whether the overall game community prefers phoneboth meta or a realistic balance between that and out fighting

[aholbert32]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

I dont think anyone disagrees

The question is whether the overall game community prefers phoneboth beta or a realistic balance between that and out fighting

This.

People are wasting their time looking for confirmation about whether outside fighting is realistic currently in this game. The devs know it isnt. The GC's (most of them anyway) know it isnt.

The question is how far do the devs want to go with it.

I can say this: Typically when the devs have long conversations about issues....those issues get addressed.

There are hours of convos that I've read about head movement. That has been and likely will continue to be addressed. We had multiple convos about ref interaction. That got addressed. Convos about vulnerability issues....that has been and will be addressed.

We've had alot of convos about movement and outside fighting. ALOT. Now I dont know if these issues will be addressed in the next patch but I'm confident they will be addressed.

[MartialMind]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

The biggest concern with a topic like this one is "How do you buff outside fighting, without making it too easy to just run"?

This is a very valid concern, and one that should be taken seriously, because as annoying as this current phone booth meta is, one that favors "Running" might be far more infuriating because there's just no action.

What i would like to see is a buff to distance fighting. Key word in there is fighting. I wanna be able to gain and maintain a specific distance while also fighting and for that to happen here's what i'd like to see.

BUFF THE TEEP/PUSH KICK:

The Teep is a fairly safe strike and the purpose of this strike is to create and maintain distance while striking. You can also hurt opponents with this strike ofcourse, but when the opponent gets too close, this should be one of the weapons we depend on to consistently push the opponent back slightly to maintain a specific distance.

In the game though, this isn't the case and for a few reasons.

- The controls are convoluted for a simple strike like this and more than occasionally i find myself throwing the wrong strike because it's too difficult to input as consistently as needed.
- The strike itself is slower than it should actually be
- It can be caught very easily and after it's caught, you can be tripped, taken down and the punish cannot be blocked.
- It has to be thrown from a strict distance. Too far and you whiff and lose stamina, too close and it morphs into a body knee which is also a dangerous strike to attempt right now.

Basically, the risk of attempting this strike is faaar greater than it's reward and that needs to change. My suggestion is this:

- Replace the controls with the body knee controls. So for PS4, i'd like R2+O to be the new control for the Teep. It's much easier to access and seeing as the Teep is simply a more important strike than the knee, the control should be easier to input.
- Give us the ability to block the strike punish after it's caught. Maybe allow some damage to bleed through, but it shouldn't be a free strike.

And that's it for the Teep.

NERF FORWARD MOVING COMBINATIONS:

This one might be controversial but please hear me out and give it some thought before you shout it down.

The MAIN issue i personally have with forward moving strikes is that you can chase down opponents with them and this is not what forward moving strikes are meant for. No striking coach will teach you to chase down opponents with strikes. A forward moving strike is designed to get you close enough to them throw something from range. This is why we see fighters advance with a forward moving strike and then stop once the opponent is out of range... You don't keep throwing while moving forward.

Now there are some exceptions. One being when an opponent is hurt, but for the most part, fighters don't chase with strikes.

In the game though, you can blitz opponents too easily. You can start a hard combo from way out of range just to land one strike. An example of a combo like this is the Jab-straight-lead body hook. Opponents can throw the moving jab straight from out of range just to land the lead body hook.

This is not how striking works. And i'd like to see some tweaks made to how this works in the game.

To be very clear.... these are the issues I have with forward moving strikes:
- They cover too much distance
- They are sped up
- They combo too easily and easily maintains forward momentum.

I can live with the distance they cover and how fast they are, but i would like to see a tweak made to how easily they combo.

Here's my proposal.

When a forward moving hard combo is thrown, only 2 strikes should count as a hard combo.... the rest should not combo.
Example:
Jab-Straight-Left Hook should be Jab-Straight---Left Hook.

The goal here is to reduce how overwhelming hard combos can be, and give the defending fighter time to counter the last strike. If a player queues up a forward moving Jab straight left hook and the straight animation plays completely before the left hook, we should have enough time to block the Jab straight and either lunge away from the left hook and make it whiff, duck or pull it and make it whiff, or counter after making it miss. But the key is, that slight pause will give you time to react realistically.

Now I didn't just artificially come up with this number. 2 strikes is usually the limit for a forward moving combo before things start to fall apart. For something to count as a hard combo, you're throwing as fast and hard as you can... maintaining forward motion after two strikes without resetting your feet at all is extremely difficult.

Let's take the forward moving Hook-straight combo. If you throw this combo as a hard combo while moving forward, it'll look like this.



Notice how Ricardo's back foot is off the ground after the straight? To be able to follow up with anything else, he'll need to set that foot back down first.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Notice what happens after Kelvin throws the first straight.



His back foot HAD to be reset before he could follow up with the right hook, causing a slight pause.

That's what i'd like to see.

Now depending on how fast you can move, there was a slight opening right there for Vitor to counter. After Kelvin had to reset and lunge back in with the right hook-straight, there was a slight opening there for Vitor to counter.

Like this:

Imagine Todd queued up a forward moving Jab-straight-right hook-straight.
You block the jab straight while backing up, he experiences a slight pause before his right hook, giving you enough time to come back with a straight before he can land.



This is the sort of opening i wanna see if we can create with this change. When a player is throwing a forward moving hard combo, there should be small openings in there for a counter to slide in. And if i don't wanna counter, I wanna have enough opening to lunge backwards, or throw a Teep and push you back before you can land that 3rd strike.

Jab-Straight--Counter--Left hook---Straight

In the game, you'd just keep sliding forward in a very unrealistic way and that makes forward moving hard combos too difficult to deal with and outside fighting too hard to maintain with footwork, without resorting to bobbing all over the place.

Now are there examples of fighters running straight forward with strikes? Sure, but this isn't the norm. What i showed above is what we normally see with forward moving combos. 2 strikes, reset, continue.

This is the outside fighting buff we need. Running won't be OP, and you'd still have to fight back and maintain distance intelligently, but at least, the weapons will be there and you'll have the openings to work.

That's it for now.

Thoughts?

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

The biggest concern with a topic like this one is "How do you buff outside fighting, without making it too easy to just run"?

This is a very valid concern, and one that should be taken seriously, because as annoying as this current phone booth meta is, one that favors "Running" might be far more infuriating because there's just no action.

What i would like to see is a buff to distance fighting. Key word in there is fighting. I wanna be able to gain and maintain a specific distance while also fighting and for that to happen here's what i'd like to see.

BUFF THE TEEP/PUSH KICK:

The Teep is a fairly safe strike and the purpose of this strike is to create and maintain distance while striking. You can also hurt opponents with this strike ofcourse, but when the opponent gets too close, this should be one of the weapons we depend on to consistently push the opponent back slightly to maintain a specific distance.

In the game though, this isn't the case and for a few reasons.

- The controls are convoluted for a simple strike like this and more than occasionally i find myself throwing the wrong strike because it's too difficult to input as consistently as needed.
- The strike itself is slower than it should actually be
- It can be caught very easily and after it's caught, you can be tripped, taken down and the punish cannot be blocked.
- It has to be thrown from a strict distance. Too far and you whiff and lose stamina, too close and it morphs into a body knee which is also a dangerous strike to attempt right now.

Basically, the risk of attempting this strike is faaar greater than it's reward and that needs to change. My suggestion is this:

- Replace the controls with the body knee controls. So for PS4, i'd like R2+O to be the new control for the Teep. It's much easier to access and seeing as the Teep is simply a more important strike than the knee, the control should be easier to input.
- Give us the ability to block the strike punish after it's caught. Maybe allow some damage to bleed through, but it shouldn't be a free strike.

And that's it for the Teep.

NERF FORWARD MOVING COMBINATIONS:

This one might be controversial but please hear me out and give it some thought before you shout it down.

The MAIN issue i personally have with forward moving strikes is that you can chase down opponents with them and this is not what forward moving strikes are meant for. No striking coach will teach you to chase down opponents with strikes. A forward moving strike is designed to get you close enough to them throw something from range. This is why we see fighters advance with a forward moving strike and then stop once the opponent is out of range... You don't keep throwing while moving forward.

Now there are some exceptions. One being when an opponent is hurt, but for the most part, fighters don't chase with strikes.

In the game though, you can blitz opponents too easily. You can start a hard combo from way out of range just to land one strike. An example of a combo like this is the Jab-straight-lead body hook. Opponents can throw the moving jab straight from out of range just to land the lead body hook.

This is not how striking works. And i'd like to see some tweaks made to how this works in the game.

To be very clear.... these are the issues I have with forward moving strikes:
- They cover too much distance
- They are sped up
- They combo too easily and easily maintains forward momentum.

I can live with the distance they cover and how fast they are, but i would like to see a tweak made to how easily they combo.

Here's my proposal.

When a forward moving hard combo is thrown, only 2 strikes should count as a hard combo.... the rest should not combo.
Example:
Jab-Straight-Left Hook should be Jab-Straight---Left Hook.

The goal here is to reduce how overwhelming hard combos can be, and give the defending fighter time to counter the last strike. If a player queues up a forward moving Jab straight left hook and the straight animation plays completely before the left hook, we should have enough time to block the Jab straight and either lunge away from the left hook and make it whiff, duck or pull it and make it whiff, or counter after making it miss. But the key is, that slight pause will give you time to react realistically.

Now I didn't just artificially come up with this number. 2 strikes is usually the limit for a forward moving combo before things start to fall apart. For something to count as a hard combo, you're throwing as fast and hard as you can... maintaining forward motion after two strikes without resetting your feet at all is extremely difficult.

Let's take the forward moving Hook-straight combo. If you throw this combo as a hard combo while moving forward, it'll look like this.



Notice how Ricardo's back foot is off the ground after the straight? To be able to follow up with anything else, he'll need to set that foot back down first.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Notice what happens after Kelvin throws the first straight.



His back foot HAD to be reset before he could follow up with the right hook, causing a slight pause.

That's what i'd like to see.

Now depending on how fast you can move, there was a slight opening right there for Vitor to counter. After Kelvin had to reset and lunge back in with the right hook-straight, there was a slight opening there for Vitor to counter.

Like this:

Imagine Todd queued up a forward moving Jab-straight-right hook-straight.
You block the jab straight while backing up, he experiences a slight pause before his right hook, giving you enough time to come back with a straight before he can land.



This is the sort of opening i wanna see if we can create with this change. When a player is throwing a forward moving hard combo, there should be small openings in there for a counter to slide in. And if i don't wanna counter, I wanna have enough opening to lunge backwards, or throw a Teep and push you back before you can land that 3rd strike.

Jab-Straight--Counter--Left hook---Straight

In the game, you'd just keep sliding forward in a very unrealistic way and that makes forward moving hard combos too difficult to deal with and outside fighting too hard to maintain with footwork, without resorting to bobbing all over the place.

Now are there examples of fighters running straight forward with strikes? Sure, but this isn't the norm. What i showed above is what we normally see with forward moving combos. 2 strikes, reset, continue.

This is the outside fighting buff we need. Running won't be OP, and you'd still have to fight back and maintain distance intelligently, but at least, the weapons will be there and you'll have the openings to work.

That's it for now.

Thoughts?

I think we all agree that know one wants it to be OP but we want it to be at least viable and realistic. Love all the breakdown of forward moving combos.

The teep kick problem is also the same with the side kick , but any form off sideways movement makes the side kick whiff.

In your last gif, the mir vs duffee, you see a different problem here. Currently when your in that close you hit a wall, same issue with side lunges.

Also the punch itself can be an example of a pull check hook, i try to use the check hook and it seems to not land that much as well if it does it has little power.

[Nugget7211]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

My question for the suggestions Martial made (which I like btw) would be what about combinations that start with 2 moving strikes and continue with some planted strikes? Does the reset only happen if I try to throw 3 forward moving strikes or does it happen after the 2nd moving strike?

Like, could I for example still throw forward moving 1-2, planted lead body kick as a hard combo?

[MartialMind]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

My question for the suggestions Martial made (which I like btw) would be what about combinations that start with 2 moving strikes and continue with some planted strikes? Does the reset only happen if I try to throw 3 forward moving strikes or does it happen after the 2nd moving strike?

Like, could I for example still throw forward moving 1-2, planted lead body kick as a hard combo?

Yeah if i throw a forward moving Jab-straight hard combo, i can easily continue with a hook for example without having to reset if the hook is a planted strike.

So i'd like to see this reset only happen on the 3rd and follow up strikes if all strikes are thrown moving forward.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

The biggest concern with a topic like this one is "How do you buff outside fighting, without making it too easy to just run"?

This is a very valid concern, and one that should be taken seriously, because as annoying as this current phone booth meta is, one that favors "Running" might be far more infuriating because there's just no action.

What i would like to see is a buff to distance fighting. Key word in there is fighting. I wanna be able to gain and maintain a specific distance while also fighting and for that to happen here's what i'd like to see.

BUFF THE TEEP/PUSH KICK:

The Teep is a fairly safe strike and the purpose of this strike is to create and maintain distance while striking. You can also hurt opponents with this strike ofcourse, but when the opponent gets too close, this should be one of the weapons we depend on to consistently push the opponent back slightly to maintain a specific distance.

In the game though, this isn't the case and for a few reasons.

- The controls are convoluted for a simple strike like this and more than occasionally i find myself throwing the wrong strike because it's too difficult to input as consistently as needed.
- The strike itself is slower than it should actually be
- It can be caught very easily and after it's caught, you can be tripped, taken down and the punish cannot be blocked.
- It has to be thrown from a strict distance. Too far and you whiff and lose stamina, too close and it morphs into a body knee which is also a dangerous strike to attempt right now.

Basically, the risk of attempting this strike is faaar greater than it's reward and that needs to change. My suggestion is this:

- Replace the controls with the body knee controls. So for PS4, i'd like R2+O to be the new control for the Teep. It's much easier to access and seeing as the Teep is simply a more important strike than the knee, the control should be easier to input.
- Give us the ability to block the strike punish after it's caught. Maybe allow some damage to bleed through, but it shouldn't be a free strike.

And that's it for the Teep.

NERF FORWARD MOVING COMBINATIONS:

This one might be controversial but please hear me out and give it some thought before you shout it down.

The MAIN issue i personally have with forward moving strikes is that you can chase down opponents with them and this is not what forward moving strikes are meant for. No striking coach will teach you to chase down opponents with strikes. A forward moving strike is designed to get you close enough to them throw something from range. This is why we see fighters advance with a forward moving strike and then stop once the opponent is out of range... You don't keep throwing while moving forward.

Now there are some exceptions. One being when an opponent is hurt, but for the most part, fighters don't chase with strikes.

In the game though, you can blitz opponents too easily. You can start a hard combo from way out of range just to land one strike. An example of a combo like this is the Jab-straight-lead body hook. Opponents can throw the moving jab straight from out of range just to land the lead body hook.

This is not how striking works. And i'd like to see some tweaks made to how this works in the game.

To be very clear.... these are the issues I have with forward moving strikes:
- They cover too much distance
- They are sped up
- They combo too easily and easily maintains forward momentum.

I can live with the distance they cover and how fast they are, but i would like to see a tweak made to how easily they combo.

Here's my proposal.

When a forward moving hard combo is thrown, only 2 strikes should count as a hard combo.... the rest should not combo.
Example:
Jab-Straight-Left Hook should be Jab-Straight---Left Hook.

The goal here is to reduce how overwhelming hard combos can be, and give the defending fighter time to counter the last strike. If a player queues up a forward moving Jab straight left hook and the straight animation plays completely before the left hook, we should have enough time to block the Jab straight and either lunge away from the left hook and make it whiff, duck or pull it and make it whiff, or counter after making it miss. But the key is, that slight pause will give you time to react realistically.

Now I didn't just artificially come up with this number. 2 strikes is usually the limit for a forward moving combo before things start to fall apart. For something to count as a hard combo, you're throwing as fast and hard as you can... maintaining forward motion after two strikes without resetting your feet at all is extremely difficult.

Let's take the forward moving Hook-straight combo. If you throw this combo as a hard combo while moving forward, it'll look like this.



Notice how Ricardo's back foot is off the ground after the straight? To be able to follow up with anything else, he'll need to set that foot back down first.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Notice what happens after Kelvin throws the first straight.



His back foot HAD to be reset before he could follow up with the right hook, causing a slight pause.

That's what i'd like to see.

Now depending on how fast you can move, there was a slight opening right there for Vitor to counter. After Kelvin had to reset and lunge back in with the right hook-straight, there was a slight opening there for Vitor to counter.

Like this:

Imagine Todd queued up a forward moving Jab-straight-right hook-straight.
You block the jab straight while backing up, he experiences a slight pause before his right hook, giving you enough time to come back with a straight before he can land.



This is the sort of opening i wanna see if we can create with this change. When a player is throwing a forward moving hard combo, there should be small openings in there for a counter to slide in. And if i don't wanna counter, I wanna have enough opening to lunge backwards, or throw a Teep and push you back before you can land that 3rd strike.

Jab-Straight--Counter--Left hook---Straight

In the game, you'd just keep sliding forward in a very unrealistic way and that makes forward moving hard combos too difficult to deal with and outside fighting too hard to maintain with footwork, without resorting to bobbing all over the place.

Now are there examples of fighters running straight forward with strikes? Sure, but this isn't the norm. What i showed above is what we normally see with forward moving combos. 2 strikes, reset, continue.

This is the outside fighting buff we need. Running won't be OP, and you'd still have to fight back and maintain distance intelligently, but at least, the weapons will be there and you'll have the openings to work.

That's it for now.

Thoughts?

Fantastic. I disagree with the change of buttons for the teep though and the catch kick punch being blockable.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

Fantastic. I disagree with the change of buttons for the teep though and the catch kick punch being blockable.

Thats fair enough TBH.

[MacGowan]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

I'd actually would like there to be an easier controll scheme to pull of a teep kick.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

I'd actually would like there to be an easier controll scheme to pull of a teep kick.

Maybe, but not at the cost of the knee.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

Maybe, but not at the cost of the knee.

The teep goes to a knee anyways in close. Its a way to get around not having one with dodson.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

The teep goes to a knee anyways in close. Its a way to get around not having one with dodson.

Good point.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Outside/point fighting or movement in general?

Martial is calling for blockable kick catch strike

YES

Incoming change in 3...2...1...