Why don't you like grappling in this game?

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

In my opinion 5 reasons the ground game is not exciting. I would like to preface this by saying the ground game is my favorite aspect of MMA. I love BJJ. I also love good stand up but I have always been a fan of submissions and the chess match and technique from good ground fighters (no lay n pray. GSP one of my least favorite fighters to watch of all time).

1.) slow. Not enough action and strategy

2.) too easy. I never feel like I am in real danger when khabib or A skilled ground n pounder has me down. Too easy to get up. Also to easy when on top to gain advantages positions. A guy like nogueira should do a better job neutralizing my offense with their guard. I should have to work to get to half guard. Side note I could just go from pro to legendary but then the AI is a little too good and I can't do anything. My skill level is not at that level.

3.) too many high level sweeps. Against high level fighters or guys ranked in the top 10 it is very rare to see some of the high level sweeps you see in the game. Not only is it two easy to sweep guys who have good top game in real life I.e GSP, Khabib, Usman etc. it also happens like 2-3 times a round. This is simply not a reflection of what you see in real mma. A high level sweep should be something you have to work for and feel more rewarding when you pull one off against a top level fighter

4.) submission are too easy to pull off offensively. Sure they made it harder to escape which I like, but it is too easy to submit top level guys when playing the AI. As it stands I can submit demons maia on a regular basis playing on pro. On a side note generally of Maia catches me in one on pro he usually puts me out. The truth is you just don't see top level guys getting submitted as frequently In real life as you do in the game. Example: Rampage Jackson is by no means a black belt level jui jitsu practitioner, but in 50 career fights he has only been submitted twice!!!! Now should a guys like quinton Jackson be impossible to submit by a high level guy? No. But I shouldn't be able to submit him regularly 9 times out of 10 by spamming submissions to where I have 8 attempted in a fight. Which leads me to my next point.

5) submissions are way to easy to attempt. I can throw up 10 submission attempts in a 3 round fight. Submissions are hard to get and should have to be worked for. As it stands right now all I have to do is hold a button and push the joystick and my submission just immediately goes into a lock animation.

I know with the "realistic" ideas I am proposing this would make the ground game extremely boring for casuals, which is a huge portion of UFC 3 fan base, but MMA can be boring sometimes, and I would like to see a possible "simulation" mode that represents the sport better where I don't see 10 submission attempts per game and 6 high level BJJ sweeps. I would like to see the ground game reflected as the struggle it is and not some Arcady "you sweep me, then I sweep you seconds later". Granted I am speaking from a strictly offline playing the AI point of view, but I am a big believer that if every mechanic was implemented to offer a better offline experience, it would reflect on the online competitive gameplay. Granted people are always going to find the way to cheese. Too many online players are more concerned with winning than having an organic realistic reflection of MMA. But would getting back to replicating real sports through video games be such a bad thing?

As of right now this game is designed to cater to an action packed online competitive crowd. If you think this game represents MMA you are fooling yourself. It's more of an arcade tekken fighter with MMA principles sprinkled in.

[ungorborongo]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

the ground game should have a control scheme that makes every button function like different limbs. You should be able to frame different ways and defend certain ways on bottom to survive and try to read things. Let me give an example. Instead of making them basically commands you put in on one joystick, transitions should be based on where you're using each limb. If a guy has side control, you should be manually shrimping or rolling to your back, etc. You should be able to try to get underhooks from half guard/side control and work out.

I just feel like it has to be more dynamic and realistic. having a few transitions you do on a stick will never, ever feel like real grappling.

it also means you'll actually need to know **** to do ****, though.

[ungorborongo]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

This is my only issue with your idea. If they had a huge tutorial library to go with this, I'm all for giving it a go but damn the controls would be so difficult. Like surgeon simulator on steroids.

IRL, I would often confuse which limb was supposed to trap which one and push / pull in which direction to pull off the move and it took a lot of repetition to get it right. It would be so much more confusing in game and think about all the positions you'd have to know. Would be too much dude.

The left stick should have more involvement though. Moving your base and creating space is important in BJJ right? The guy on top could also use it to remain floaty if he chose to, like those wrestlers who just hang out on your back and let you transition but still stay on your back, or work more methodical. Left stick could be used for momentum somehow. The simultaneous transition actually servers this purpose at times too. Sometimes I'll do a transition and the AI will do one at the same time and suddenly we end up in some completely different position. That stuff is very cool when it happens.

yeah, it would get mega confusing and a lot of the IRL stuff becomes muscle memory so it would be hard to transition into the game

i just dont know how else it'd be any fun. Maybe if the transitions were more dynamic and rather than full transitions, each "transition" is a sequence of things you can do. So if you want to get from side control to full guard, you still use the analogs to first keep your frames, then shrimp, then retain guard?

I don't know man, im just spitballing. it needs to be seriously reworked from how it is now though.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I want more minor positions for every position. More options to work with. Things are too predictable at the moment. It feels like either left, right or posture up.

Having more to do within each position would breathe a lot of life into it.

Ideas:
Holding a glove to punch with other hand
Holding a glove before throwing up a sub to remove a gate from the minigame(?)
Catching a strike into a sub (UD3 style)
Hand over mouth to slow stamina regen or burn off perm stamina(?)
Neck pressure in side control to slow stamina regen or maybe weaken neck for RNC later
Knee on belly on side control for more damaging GNP
Pulling a guys neck (can opener) in full guard GSP style
Throwing a body triangle up to make it harder for opponent to get up
Scooting hips towards cage to wall walk
Moving opponent around on ground
Holding head and punching with other hand
Taunting

I LOVE a lot of these ideas dubstep

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

There should be small positioning battles on the ground before each transition in the game now.

For example, from full guard top you would have to first place your hand on the opponents leg, push your hips out to open the guard, and push the leg down and pass into half guard. Each one of these could have a denial and a reversal. Timing a reversal to a hand pushing on your leg to pass could lead to throwing that hand out to set up a quick triangle for instance.

There should be small positioning battles like this for as many transitions as possible. Like hand fighting for the chokes (or to grab an arm and escape back mount), wrist control from bottom guard to set up a triangle or better posture control.

Posture control should have to be a battle that is won before top can pass. Posture control for bottom should mean maintaining guard and ability to use momentum with the legs to set up sweeps and submissions.

Since posture control would now be necessary before passing or to maintain guard, expand this meta with more animations. Give diagonal inputs (and L1 inputs) for top to have different posturing animations (some standing, etc) to give posture more depth along with the other positions.

Fighting for each position like posture control in guard, wrist control in guard, underhooks in half guard, etc. should be vital to performing subsequent major transitions that are in the game now.

Transitions need to be smaller positioning battles that lead to performing the bigger transitions that are in the game now.



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[ungorborongo]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

There should be small positioning battles on the ground before each transition in the game now.

For example, from full guard top you would have to first place your hand on the opponents leg, push your hips out to open the guard, and push the leg down and pass into half guard. Each one of these could have a denial and a reversal. Timing a reversal to a hand pushing on your leg to pass could lead to throwing that hand out to set up a quick triangle for instance.

There should be small positioning battles like this for as many transitions as possible. Like hand fighting for the chokes (or to grab an arm and escape back mount), wrist control from bottom guard to set up a triangle or better posture control.

Posture control should have to be a battle that is won before top can pass. Posture control for bottom should mean maintaining guard and ability to use momentum with the legs to set up sweeps and submissions.

Since posture control would now be necessary before passing or to maintain guard, expand this meta with more animations. Give diagonal inputs (and L1 inputs) for top to have different posturing animations (some standing, etc) to give posture more depth along with the other positions.

Fighting for each position like posture control in guard, wrist control in guard, underhooks in half guard, etc. should be vital to performing subsequent major transitions that are in the game now.

Transitions need to be smaller positioning battles that lead to performing the bigger transitions that are in the game now.



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it would be really nice if you could decide which pass you were doing from top as well. Would really add depth if people didnt do the same pass every time.

[Supreme_Bananas]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

This is why being a dev has to be frustrating. On one hand, we have multiple people saying that lay and pray is impossible given the grappling system and the increased ref standup clock. While you say its "everywhere".

I dont know who's right (When I grapple, I dont see alot of guys attempting to L&P. They are looking for the finish but that could be because I suck).

Well, I kinda meant it like both ways. Before the quicker stand-ups all you had to do was lay in top guard for the whole round, but also because it is just pretty hard to pass guard, all transitions are slow for both sides, and good players deny even fakes. Same for sprawl top, transitioning to back side is extremely slow and fakes are slow too, all the guy on the bottom has to do now is wait it out, I see MartialMind do that in his vids all the time

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

Since people are brainstorming ideas to improve the grappling I'll just throw this in here. It's from a thread I made awhile ago before the game released.

Tbh the grappling is awesome but the rock-paper-scissors mechanic should be based on position/ratings instead of stamina(with long term stamina impacting ratings).

Have minor transition>major transition>blocking>punching>minor transition

Minor transitions shouldnt be reversable. They could also set up submissions. Have like 2-4 minor transitions equal a major one(depending on level and ratings). Also doing minor transitions increase speed of major ones and decrease stages for subs.

So for instance, getting wrist control is a minor transition, shifting your hips to one side is a minor transition, then you can either go straight for a sub with less stages or major transition to get up but it’ll be way faster due to using minor transitions first.

I’d also like to see a scramble mechanic(and rating). Instead of auto reversals when you time a reverse(clicking R3) on a major transition it creates a scramble situation and both players have to try to “win”. Submissions should be possible from here. Maybe a timed button mash like the arm bar submission in EA MMA

These mechanics can also apply to wrestling. I’d like a struggle animation and the same minigame.

What this does is create depth in the ground game for higher level players but newer guys can still use major transitions/punching/blocking which would work the same. Also by switching reversals to clicking R3 it gives us the option to deny only incase someone wants to be on bottom.

For clinch work i’d like to see movement in the clinch impacting transition speeds. If I double under and push forward it should make the body clinch easier. If we’re in single collar I should be able to pivot towards your lead leg and make a sweep easier by taking you off balance. Clinch transition speeds need to also be faster , it is extremely difficult to hold someone in the clinch. Exception being double under.

Single collar punches/elbows need to do more damage.

I also think the choke minigame from EA MMA is much better than the current game. Joint locks are another beast tho and maybe they should be transition based.

Feedback is appreciated.

[gsp4392]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I think transition spams are very annoying, something needs to be changed but I don’t have a solution. If we just keep adding stamina tax to the ground game it’s going to cause a lot of exploits and easy GNP TKO.

The GNP animation looks weak, just feels clunky and not satisfying. I don’t think the damage and controls aspects should be changed just a better visual in my opinion. Same thing for clinches, very poor/weak animations which makes it pointless to use fighters like Cain who rely on cage clinch strikes.

The double leg takedown animations need to changed as well and include a new takedown defense to sprawl animation connecting the chain together. Also going to repeat for the 1000th post...Activate takedown defense against the cage EVERY TIME both fighters are in proximity of the cage.

[Reinfarcements]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

Voted Other:

It just feels underwhelming. Only a couple of the strikes feel and look powerful, the rest look like the dominant fighter is pulling his strikes last second. Strikes feel robotic and slow on the ground, as opposed to the flurry of ground and pound seen in real life a lot. Little to no physics/variety in takedowns (every double-leg should not look exactly the same).

Idk its not just one aspect. It all just feels.......low energy. Kinda like neither fighter is really trying.

[Stealthhh]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

My main gripe is mobility on the ground and in the clinch. Clinch is a whole different story though. I'd honestly be sort of okay with the grappling if we could have full mobility on the ground with the left stick. Would make it look less "stuck in the mud." It would make fighting on the ground a little bit enjoyable at least. Takedowns definitely need struggle animations, that's also the main reason why I don't like going to the ground. You get the same double and single leg all the time, no rushing takedowns it makes it meh imo.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

Stamina is REALLY bad in grappling.

I don't like the meter filling.

I don't like how it feels. It doesn't feel like you are actually holding someone down like in U3.

I don't like that it's timing based & a guessing game with denials and I'd like it to somehow implement EA MMAs idea of "strike-to-pass, pass-to-strike" more.

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[kush land]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I find the grappling is alot better when you wanna grapple if you dont wanna grapple its just straight up ANNOYING.

[OPSPunk]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

Overall I like the grappling in this game. It doesn’t have the complexity irl real life grappling but that might be asking too much. Sure they could add some positions but my real issue is that the takedowns are under powered

[WarMMA]

Re: Why don't you like grappling in this game?

I think transition spams are very annoying, something needs to be changed but I don’t have a solution. If we just keep adding stamina tax to the ground game it’s going to cause a lot of exploits and easy GNP TKO.

The GNP animation looks weak, just feels clunky and not satisfying. I don’t think the damage and controls aspects should be changed just a better visual in my opinion. Same thing for clinches, very poor/weak animations which makes it pointless to use fighters like Cain who rely on cage clinch strikes.

The double leg takedown animations need to changed as well and include a new takedown defense to sprawl animation connecting the chain together. Also going to repeat for the 1000th post...Activate takedown defense against the cage EVERY TIME both fighters are in proximity of the cage.

Yh for sure the sprawl animation should be changed and they need that double/single against the cage to always happen once your close enough and the player doesn't defend early. They can do away with that slow sprawl animation where it looks like the attacker is just letting himself be put into sprawl position with no struggle. They only need the quick sprawl where you shrug the guy off and go back to striking and the quick full sprawl where you drop down quickly into the sprawl position. I wonder if any chance stuff like this can be done in the patch?