The Stamina System

[Phillyboi207]

Re: The Stamina System

Hugging high block in an attempt to gas your opponent out should never be a viable tactic. We want to steer very clear of this.
But why? Gassing yourself out is a real threat in MMA. Using that defense should be possible but risky. More bleed through and more long term block breakdown in addition to stamina changes would balance it for both sides.

Nobody but maybe the top 1% like stamina or block as it is

Mangala is correct about the block also, we have a high/low blocking system with automatic strike conditioning. You can throw repeated straight strikes or repeated round strikes to open your opponent up for the opposite strike type.

Strike conditioning on block is pretty realistic, take a look at Yoel x Whiitaker 2. Whittaker threw 3 jabs to get Yoel to commit to blocking the front, and smacked him with a head kick.

When did that happen? Closest is this.



But he blocks the head kick. When he got blasted his guard was down. He had his usual high guard up and blocked the head kick when the jabs were thrown.

People dont usually over commit their guard to stop jabs.

Hmm cant get the gif to show

https://gfycat.com/shallowcompetenthapuka

My main issue with stamina currently is that meta goes against real life. You shouldnt have to force your opponent to gas. Managing stamina is a vital aspect of MMA and right now people are having their hand held. Same way the game was holding people’s hands when it came to distance management.

[aholbert32]

Re: The Stamina System

People dont usually over commit their guard to stop jabs.

Hmm cant get the gif to show

https://gfycat.com/shallowcompetenthapuka

My main issue with stamina currently is that meta goes against real life. You shouldnt have to force your opponent to gas. Managing stamina is a vital aspect of MMA and right now people are having their hand held. Same way the game was holding people’s hands when it came to distance management.

This is an area where I believe the realism junkies (like me) are maybe the minority. The high level comp fighters want you to earn your opponent's stamina drain. Either through getting whiffs from head movement or landing body punches or getting knockdowns. The feel like a significant stamina drain based solely on activity would lower the skill level and turn the game even more conservative than they believe it is.

Truly casual fans really dont seem to care about stamina either because it allows them to play how they want even if it isnt exactly realistic.

I dont know if there will ever be any real movement on this issue when major parts of the community seem to be OK with the current stamina.

[Ksearyback]

Re: The Stamina System

This is an area where I believe the realism junkies (like me) are maybe the minority. The high level comp fighters want you to earn your opponent's stamina drain. Either through getting whiffs from head movement or landing body punches or getting knockdowns. The feel like a significant stamina drain based solely on activity would lower the skill level and turn the game even more conservative than they believe it is.

Truly casual fans really dont seem to care about stamina either because it allows them to play how they want even if it isnt exactly realistic.

I dont know if there will ever be any real movement on this issue when major parts of the community seem to be OK with the current stamina.

Lots of definitions for IRL fans in here.

Some support a case for change based on stats, as an example. To me we'd end up with trouble if any decisions were made, with a goal of managing outcomes.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum from realistic outcomes guy. I want all inputs for the mechanics (and any tweaks made in an attempt to balance gameplay eyc.) to be congruent with the real world. No need for arbitrary stamina taxes, hard-wired combos, grappling advantage (if it's forced on a particular position as a fix for staling, or OP situations etc.).

The post I've quoted states things perfectly. Several unique sub-groups, each wanting something slightly (or vastly) different, and supported by entirely valid reasoning.

Because this is all interconnected, we argue in circles. 1-4 below should be in a circle, not listed linearly.
1.High-level combo players
2.Realistic (outcomes) Guy
3.Realistic (inputs) Guy
4.Button smasher drunk with friends

[Phillyboi207]

Re: The Stamina System

This is an area where I believe the realism junkies (like me) are maybe the minority. The high level comp fighters want you to earn your opponent's stamina drain. Either through getting whiffs from head movement or landing body punches or getting knockdowns. The feel like a significant stamina drain based solely on activity would lower the skill level and turn the game even more conservative than they believe it is.

Truly casual fans really dont seem to care about stamina either because it allows them to play how they want even if it isnt exactly realistic.

I dont know if there will ever be any real movement on this issue when major parts of the community seem to be OK with the current stamina.

Im always seeing people complain about stamina on reddit and here. High level dudes like it where it is but they will adjust to any meta that is put out.

My hope would be blocking would also become more dangerous so just sitting on block all fight wouldnt be a viable tactic. More bleed through on all non jab strikes would accomplish that.

Then there’s no way to say that lowers the skill level. Besides the game has already drastically lowered the skill level for offense with the combo system, hand holding for distance management, and hand holding for stamina.

[aholbert32]

Re: The Stamina System

Im always seeing people complain about stamina on reddit and here. High level dudes like it where it is but they will adjust to any meta that is put out.

My hope would be blocking would also become more dangerous so just sitting on block all fight wouldnt be a viable tactic. More bleed through on all jab strikes would accomplish that.

Then there’s no way to say that lowers the skill level. Besides the game has already drastically lowered the skill level for offense with the combo system, hand holding for distance management, and hand holding for stamina.

The people here and on Reddit are mostly like you and I. They arent high level comp players and they definitely arent casual fans.

[The meticulous Esp]

Re: The Stamina System

+100 for Missed Strikes resulting in more long term stamina drain!

Like OP said, stamina system has improved, but needs a bit more tweaking.

Heavyweights throwing 110+ strikes....with 35% accuracy....but coming out with 95%+ stamina in round 2....just has to go.

As I've harped on before, I think the LECs have the ideal or near-ideal stamina levels for this game.

You can certainly throw 80, 90, even 100+ strikes in the first round of an LEC match --- but you better be doing a lot of damage, b/c you won't be able to keep that pace up all fight (or even for two rounds) so you better get a quick Knockout or at least knock down your opponent a couple times to make up for the stamina drain.

Conversely, if you're someone like me who prefers to throw 60-70 strikes per round but with very high accuracy (especially sig strike accuracy) --- you can pace yourself, play defense, and pick an overly aggressive fighter apart.

I think the following changes to *ranked* would make the stamina system so much better:

* +10% Stamina Tax for Blocked Strikes; to balance this, blocked strikes cause 10% more damage to Blocking Power

* +25% Stamina Tax for Missed or Evaded Strikes

* +100% Stamina Tax for Missed Takedowns (but also make it a bit easier to score takedowns....as they're too difficult right now IMO)


Really hope they consider tuning the stamina so that Ranked matches using A and A+ type fighters are more like using an LEC fighter. Fingers crossed

[bmlimo]

Re: The Stamina System

I hate to be that guy saying "get gud" but if you are being overwhelmed with combo's you're doing something wrong.

Lets break this down.

If someone is moving forward with strikes you have two huge advantages on them.
- They are more vulnerable to counters
- Their combos are slower than stationary combos or backwards moving combos

If they are staying in your face with stationary combos breaking your block
- They have to hit your block with the 3 strikes of the same type to land just ONE strike with no vuln damage.
- They are at a short term stamina deficit of at least 40%. Making striking continuously a bad idea because its extremely risky to strike with low short term stamina and also they deal less damage when striking with low short term stamina.

So by the time they actually break your block, they wont be in a position to where its a good idea to continue striking back immediately.



Hugging high block in an attempt to gas your opponent out should never be a viable tactic. We want to steer very clear of this.

That said, with the use of head movement, dashes, and countestriking, you have the ability to easily punish over aggression at your disposal.

In my opnion:
-If you throw to many strikes u gas... u should watch your gas
-mma gloves are small u cant block 100% using them
-theres no extra speed in combo strikes, just the fluidity, of course we have explosive fighter but they stamina when they finish the combo is like the muscle modifier...

But ... none of this count as we want a tekken combo battle with break dance moves

[1stChrisso]

Re: The Stamina System

In my opnion:
-If you throw to many strikes u gas... u should watch your gas
-mma gloves are small u cant block 100% using them
-theres no extra speed in combo strikes, just the fluidity, of course we have explosive fighter but they stamina when they finish the combo is like the muscle modifier...

But ... none of this count as we want a tekken combo battle with break dance moves

Those "we" are a bunch of overly competitive players who are brainwashing the Devs. I (already) know Aholbert thinks different.

[WarMMA]

Re: The Stamina System

This is an area where I believe the realism junkies (like me) are maybe the minority. The high level comp fighters want you to earn your opponent's stamina drain. Either through getting whiffs from head movement or landing body punches or getting knockdowns. The feel like a significant stamina drain based solely on activity would lower the skill level and turn the game even more conservative than they believe it is.

Truly casual fans really dont seem to care about stamina either because it allows them to play how they want even if it isnt exactly realistic.

I dont know if there will ever be any real movement on this issue when major parts of the community seem to be OK with the current stamina.

Thing is the game is in no way conservative cause long term stamina drain isn't that realistic. Fighters can throw everything along with the kitchen sink and come out in the nexr round with almost full stamina. The stamina recovery in between rounds is what makes it sore for me tbh. I wish it were more like FNC where depending on how much you threw, you could end up recovering very little to no stamina at all. Like we cant even have moments like Diaz/Mcgregor 1, where Conor came out like a house on fire in the 1st trying to take Diaz out and in the 2nd while he didnt gas himself, he did a considerable number on his gas tank and had to slow his pace. Like you said though, I dont think there will be any push for more realistic long term stamina drain. Only few want it. Most like the striking the way it is, which to me is a combo based block breaking fest currently. Hell even playing the AI it plays this way. Combos, combos, combos.

[aholbert32]

Re: The Stamina System

Those "we" are a bunch of overly competitive players who are brainwashing the Devs. I (already) know Aholbert thinks different.

I think "brainwashing" is the wrong term for it. They have presented an argument and its an argument that the devs seem to understand and agree with. I dont agree with their argument but that doesnt mean that the argument isnt reasonable or based in fact.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: The Stamina System

In my opnion:
-If you throw to many strikes u gas... u should watch your gas
-mma gloves are small u cant block 100% using them
-theres no extra speed in combo strikes, just the fluidity, of course we have explosive fighter but they stamina when they finish the combo is like the muscle modifier...

But ... none of this count as we want a tekken combo battle with break dance moves

I dont disagree with anything that you are saying.

All Im saying is strike output alone isnt what gasses fighters out or what keeps them from throwing more all the time.

My worry here is the introduction of new exploits(remember the overhand on block off an active KD to get another free KD when the health regen bug happened?) and even more complaints about aggression. If people are complaining about aggression now and they have 3 chances to counter before a 4th punch breaks the block, imagine the complaints when block is even weaker.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: The Stamina System

Those "we" are a bunch of overly competitive players who are brainwashing the Devs. I (already) know Aholbert thinks different.

The devs have their own brain and are more than capable of debating and making decisions based off logic. Where as you seem to get emotional when you dont get your way and start throwing shade instead of actually debating. This is exactly why I dont frequent the forums as much.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: The Stamina System

We have and you no clue what you’re talking about

At no point does Diaz adjust his block for the jab.

Connor is testing Diaz to see how he’ll react to the next strike.

Regardless of what you think the gif shows, do you not think that strike conditioning someone into blocking a certain way is a thing?

The jab is a good tool irl because
- Its a range finder
- Its relatively safe
- Its fast
- Its a blinder(set up) punch
- It requires much less effort when compared to other strikes.


In game 4/5 of these are true.(True jab range does not exist in game because all punches have the same range.)

To my point though, the jab is a commonly used weapon to either poke at your opponent, or to force them to commit to blocking the front of their face if they cant time a parry. And when you block the front of your face, its harder to see incoming strikes. This would where where throwing an overhand or stepping off at an angle to the side and throwing a straight would come in.

[WarMMA]

Re: The Stamina System

The block breaking makes sense I guess, but there is no real reliable way to handle it at times. And don't say head movement cuz its really not that reliable cuz you cant counter properly off it...the strikes come out to slow and you could end up trading with a guy spamming hooks. Btw, how does everyone feel about the sways in this game? Specifically countering from them. I feel like they made them too slow now and thus they are not that reliable at all. Not to mention some of the sways logic is totally flawed. The side sways in particular. Someone can throw a hook and you can sway to the opposite side moving away from it and it will still land. Thats so wrong in comparison to how it goes irl, because when you sway to a side you also dip at the waist, essentially moving to that side and ducking at the same time. Only way that could happen frequently is if your timing is off, the opponent is throwing downward arking type hooks(which isnt the case with this game) or if you are right in front of them in elbow range. Makes no sense that you cant slip to the opposite side of a hook in the game.

[1stChrisso]

Re: The Stamina System

The devs have their own brain and are more than capable of debating and making decisions based off logic. Where as you seem to get emotional when you dont get your way and start throwing shade instead of actually debating. This is exactly why I dont frequent the forums as much.

I'm at a point where I don't care too much anymore tbh. I don't believe the Devs gonna change the stamina system. They could have done already but we only got minor changes so far. And where are some tuner updates regarding stamina? It doesn't have to be patched.

Btw I wrote many suggestions but the Devs tend to only make competitive SF players happy. I wait for the next patch and see if the game stays so ****ty. I guess it will. Most likely it's time to move on. Too many good games out to play. Might write a rant and you're welcome to read it, ZHunter. Or whatever lol ...