What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

[aholbert32]

Ok so I just used a ridiculous title to draw you guys into this thread but I have a legitimate purpose for it. Given that development for UFC3 is winding down and the devs havent removed me from my GC position yet, I'm starting to think about the next game. Because of that, I'm going to make a few posts about things that I may or may not have input in order to get an understanding about how OS sees things. The first one has to do with stats/ratings.

-So I see posts all the time where someone says "fighter X has a 94 in body strength when he should really only have a 90". I see similar posts for stats like leg strength too. I always wonder what the community thinks should determine those stats.

For example, its easy to give someone a high leg strength rating if they faced a good leg kicker and it didnt result in much damage. The problem is out of the 250 fighters in the game, the large majority of them havent faced someone who is great at leg kicks.

So how should we rate someone who hasnt faced an opponent like a Barbosa, Aldo or a Jeremy Stephens?

Should we automatically give someone like Gilbert Melendez a low leg strength rating simply because he was hurt in the Barbosa and Stephens fight? Should we give him some credit since he finished both of those fights?

Does the fact that Gilbert survived both of those fights with severe leg damage (against great kickers) show that he has great leg strength or does the fact that he was hurt show that he should be rated lower?

This leads to the main point of this thread: What should determine a fighter's leg strength or body strength?

[Kingslayer04]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

Ok so I just used a ridiculous title to draw you guys into this thread but I have a legitimate purpose for it. Given that development for UFC3 is winding down and the devs havent removed me from my GC position yet, I'm starting to think about the next game. Because of that, I'm going to make a few posts about things that I may or may not have input in order to get an understanding about how OS sees things. The first one has to do with stats/ratings.

-So I see posts all the time where someone says "fighter X has a 94 in body strength when he should really only have a 90". I see similar posts for stats like leg strength too. I always wonder what the community thinks should determine those stats.

For example, its easy to give someone a high leg strength rating if they faced a good leg kicker and it didnt result in much damage. The problem is out of the 250 fighters in the game, the large majority of them havent faced someone who is great at leg kicks.

So how should we rate someone who hasnt faced an opponent like a Barbosa, Aldo or a Jeremy Stephens?

Should we automatically give someone like Gilbert Melendez a low leg strength rating simply because he was hurt in the Barbosa and Stephens fight? Should we give him some credit since he finished both of those fights?

Does the fact that Gilbert survived both of those fights with severe leg damage (against great kickers) show that he has great leg strength or does the fact that he was hurt show that he should be rated lower?

This leads to the main point of this thread: What should determine a fighter's leg strength or body strength?

I personally think that if someone has not been tested against leg kicks, regardless of whether it's a top leg kicker or not, should have a leg health rating of around 90. That's the middle ground. And then we go from there. If they have been tested against a well-known top leg kicker and had their legs broken, both the damage and the kicker should be taken into account. If it's Stephens-Melendez kinds of damage, there should be a severe stat drop from 90, say 87. If the kicker, however, has a history of destroying legs (Aldo, Gaethje), and the receiver hasn't really had their legs damaged in such a way in other fights, we should take this into consideration and maybe give them an 89 rating.

Now, for Stephens and Melendez, I can't be as positive as to what approach should be taken since I haven't seen that many of their fights (Melendez mostly) maybe someone who has will contribute better. However, from what I have seen, Stephens does go for the legs pretty often, and had great success against Melendez. Now, if Gilbert doesn't have a history of getting his legs torn to pieces, don't punish him too hard (but don't forget what happened to him) - 88, 89. But Stephens should be rewarded with a perk/a good leg kick level, because leg kicking is a part of his game, with which he was very successful in this fight. You check whether his stats reflect that and if they don't - you buff him accordingly.

Nate Diaz, for example, gets his legs chopped up all the time by anyone who goes for them (Henderson, Cerrone, RDA). He should have a poor leg health rating. Conor McGregor hasn't really been tested. If he were any fighter, give him a 90-91. If you have some impressions of him handling whatever few leg kicks have been thrown at him well, give him a 91-92. At a stretch, since he's McGregor, one could see him getting a 93 (but only because of his poster boy status). Etc, etc.

TLDR:
Remember what the middle ground is (90)

Consider the fighter's general history with leg kicks, and that doesn't mean only the times his legs got smashed - if you notice he checks them every now and again or even if he generally responds well to them - keep that in mind.

Consider who they are facing and what kind of leg kicking history they themselves have to determine how severe or rewarding you should be with the rating. Also keep in mind that the kicker can get a buff as well, it's not all nerfs for the receiver.

PS: I'm not sure why you made this thread, the ratings are mostly good, I can't think of anything really outrageous (except for maybe Cerrone's body health of 80, but perhaps someone else will address that). It's just that Conor's stats in these areas are really inflated, 96 indicates someone whose legs are extremely difficult to damage even after a concentrated attack on them. Oh, and when I say "you" in the post I don't necessarily mean @aholbert32. Just the expression.

[fballturkey]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

Serious question: do people think that there is a significant difference in real life, fighter to fighter, in leg health? Chin there is, body I can see, I can’t honestly say I’ve ever looked at a fighter and been like “oh yeah that guy is really good/bad at eating leg kicks.” Some are better at checking them, but that’s not the same thing and that isn’t what this rating does.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

Serious question: do people think that there is a significant difference in real life, fighter to fighter, in leg health? Chin there is, body I can see, I can’t honestly say I’ve ever looked at a fighter and been like “oh yeah that guy is really good/bad at eating leg kicks.” Some are better at checking them, but that’s not the same thing and that isn’t what this rating does.

Mark Hunt's notorious "tree trunks". I actually watched his fight with Lewis yesterday, the commentators mentioned how they are so thick he doesn't even care about Derrick's leg kicks one bit. I don't know if one should go simply by what the commentators are saying but yeah, he didn't seem to be bothered. He checked one and his shin got cut, though. But yeah, he didn't care.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

Tbh I think a fighter’s background should be taken into consideration.

A former Thai champion should be given a boost to their leg health off the bat (like a 92-93) and adjust based on their MMA fights. Someone with a pure grappling background should have maybe an 88-87 to start and adjust based on their fights.

Same thing with body shots. A former boxer will likely be able to take a body shot better than a wrestler.

One thing I dont like is the idea of fighter’s health stats being put into tiers. Everyone should follow the same model imo.

Other then that KingSlayer’s post hit the nail on the head. Getting rocked by Derrick Lewis shouldnt lower your chin but surviving his bombs should raise it. Getting dropped/rocked by someone known for pillow fists should lower your chin (*cough*WWConor*cough*)

[Kingslayer04]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

Tbh I think a fighter’s background should be taken into consideration.

A former Thai champion should be given a boost to their leg health off the bat (like a 92-93) and adjust based on their MMA fights. Someone with a pure grappling background should have maybe an 88-87 to start and adjust based on their fights.

Same thing with body shots. A former boxer will likely be able to take a body shot better than a wrestler.

One thing I dont like is the idea of fighter’s health stats being put into tiers. Everyone should follow the same model imo.

Other then that KingSlayer’s post hit the nail on the head. Getting rocked by Derrick Lewis shouldnt lower your chin but surviving his bombs should raise it. Getting dropped/rocked by someone known for pillow fists should lower your chin (*cough*WWConor*cough*)

Khabib's stand-up was underestimated (including by me), but I wouldn't call his fists pillow . He just wasn't known for his striking prowess.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

Khabib's stand-up was underestimated (including by me), but I wouldn't call his fists pillow . He just wasn't known for his striking prowess.

Oh im referring to Nate rocking him at WW

Hell Nate even rocked him to the body.

But Conor’s an exception thanks to uncle Dana

[RomeroXVII]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

I personally think that if someone has not been tested against leg kicks, regardless of whether it's a top leg kicker or not, should have a leg health rating of around 90. That's the middle ground. And then we go from there. If they have been tested against a well-known top leg kicker and had their legs broken, both the damage and the kicker should be taken into account. If it's Stephens-Melendez kinds of damage, there should be a severe stat drop from 90, say 87. If the kicker, however, has a history of destroying legs (Aldo, Gaethje), and the receiver hasn't really had their legs damaged in such a way in other fights, we should take this into consideration and maybe give them an 89 rating.

Now, for Stephens and Melendez, I can't be as positive as to what approach should be taken since I haven't seen that many of their fights (Melendez mostly) maybe someone who has will contribute better. However, from what I have seen, Stephens does go for the legs pretty often, and had great success against Melendez. Now, if Gilbert doesn't have a history of getting his legs torn to pieces, don't punish him too hard (but don't forget what happened to him) - 88, 89. But Stephens should be rewarded with a perk/a good leg kick level, because leg kicking is a part of his game, with which he was very successful in this fight. You check whether his stats reflect that and if they don't - you buff him accordingly.

Nate Diaz, for example, gets his legs chopped up all the time by anyone who goes for them (Henderson, Cerrone, RDA). He should have a poor leg health rating. Conor McGregor hasn't really been tested. If he were any fighter, give him a 90-91. If you have some impressions of him handling whatever few leg kicks have been thrown at him well, give him a 91-92. At a stretch, since he's McGregor, one could see him getting a 93 (but only because of his poster boy status). Etc, etc.

TLDR:
Remember what the middle ground is (90)

Consider the fighter's general history with leg kicks, and that doesn't mean only the times his legs got smashed - if you notice he checks them every now and again or even if he generally responds well to them - keep that in mind.

Consider who they are facing and what kind of leg kicking history they themselves have to determine how severe or rewarding you should be with the rating. Also keep in mind that the kicker can get a buff as well, it's not all nerfs for the receiver.

PS: I'm not sure why you made this thread, the ratings are mostly good, I can't think of anything really outrageous (except for maybe Cerrone's body health of 80, but perhaps someone else will address that). It's just that Conor's stats in these areas are really inflated, 96 indicates someone whose legs are extremely difficult to damage even after a concentrated attack on them. Oh, and when I say "you" in the post I don't necessarily mean @aholbert32. Just the expression.

You saying remember the middle ground, is a point I strongly agree with. I was going to say something similar to all of this, but you absolutely nailed it. (and Phillyboi207 mentioning fighter backgrounds) Great job.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

My issue with the health system is that it only measures how much damage they take. For instance, I don't think that the Diaz Bros' issue is that they can't take leg kicks but that they don't adjust to them. I don't think Luke Rockhold or Derek Brunson have below average chins. They leave themselves open. I would say someone like Matt Brown is an example of a fighter who just seems to get hurt by body shots more easily than others. Ideally UFC 4 has other ways to give fighters vulnerabilities other than decreasing their damage threshold.

Anyway, under the current system I would only drop guys below 85-87 if the fighter has historically struggled with it. Pettis shouldn't have 81 legs strength just because of he got his legs chopped by Barboza of all people (Pardon me if I forget another fight). By contrast, someone like Woodley has 93 chin, 94 body and 97 legs strength when I'd say he has been successful by avoiding getting hit and isn't particularly known for his ability to brush off hits like Hunt.

I agree with the before-mentioned ideas that getting rocked by Derrick Lewis shouldn't decrease your chin and that there should be a middle ground (and I'd say everything should be balanced around the middle ground).

[UFCBlackbelt]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

I have suggested this idea before and it got shot down.

We start with an Average-based approach to fighter ratings.

80 is the lowest while 100 being the highest for any given stats.

90 is the natural average, these are just numbers I am using for now, they can be any set that has an average, max and min.
Just note, that 100 would be very rare and 80 would likewise be very rare. Consider them outliers.


So this is how we would carry out a new fighter's ratings.

STEP 1: [Average] We apply an average across the board to the fighter. This should feel like a truly average UFC fighter, well rounded but not too great or too bad at anything.

STEP 2 [Credentials/Microadjustments] We apply small adjustments to the fighter based on their pre-mma credentials (if they have high wrestling credentials we boost their wrestling stats slightly depending on how high level and reduce their striking slightly). These are microadjustments between 2~4 pts because these skills don't always fully transfer well

Think of these biases as "Classes" in your classic rpg, with weaknesses and strengths but not too extensive because...

Step 3: [PERFORMANCES] We implement major stat changes based on performances in the cage, who they fought and what happened in the fight is critical. If fighter A ate a flush shot from Dan Henderson and wasn't stunned - well that is far more impressive than taking one punch from Bisping. Or beating a nobody from a weak organization would be less impressive than a UFC champ. Did they just complete a 5 round fight? Did they gas out in 2 rounds?

Through this process we eliminate biases for favorite/hyped fighters, just because a fighter is a champion wont necessarily mean they have beyond average chin, if their career didn't involve them taking many shots, that information should remain average. Maybe their footwork and blocking was good enough to avoid those shots. Likewise, just because a fighter is a low ranked fighter doesn't mean their chin should be below average, in fact it's more likely to be average considering they are less likely to have been KO'd early in their careers.

We give each fighters real weaknesses and strengths regardless of rank, so that if I had a lower ranked fighter I could still develop a real gameplan to beat a higher ranked fighter by exploiting his/her weaknesses and enforcing my strengths.

I think we are almost there, we are miles ahead and continuing the Dynamic stat changes helps a ton because fighters evolve/show new holes each fight.

This requires many more hours of studying each fight and it's a harder system to implement, but it can be done. Madden had an entire system of deep analysis for its original stats.
------------
As for your initial question, leg strength/body strength should relate to how well you block+accept damage. Think of it more as "Body weakness, leg weakness". Cerrone has a body weakness, Diaz bros have leg weaknesses.

[Lurch]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

I want a cheese steak

[WarMMA]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

I personally think that if someone has not been tested against leg kicks, regardless of whether it's a top leg kicker or not, should have a leg health rating of around 90. That's the middle ground. And then we go from there. If they have been tested against a well-known top leg kicker and had their legs broken, both the damage and the kicker should be taken into account. If it's Stephens-Melendez kinds of damage, there should be a severe stat drop from 90, say 87. If the kicker, however, has a history of destroying legs (Aldo, Gaethje), and the receiver hasn't really had their legs damaged in such a way in other fights, we should take this into consideration and maybe give them an 89 rating.

Now, for Stephens and Melendez, I can't be as positive as to what approach should be taken since I haven't seen that many of their fights (Melendez mostly) maybe someone who has will contribute better. However, from what I have seen, Stephens does go for the legs pretty often, and had great success against Melendez. Now, if Gilbert doesn't have a history of getting his legs torn to pieces, don't punish him too hard (but don't forget what happened to him) - 88, 89. But Stephens should be rewarded with a perk/a good leg kick level, because leg kicking is a part of his game, with which he was very successful in this fight. You check whether his stats reflect that and if they don't - you buff him accordingly.

Nate Diaz, for example, gets his legs chopped up all the time by anyone who goes for them (Henderson, Cerrone, RDA). He should have a poor leg health rating. Conor McGregor hasn't really been tested. If he were any fighter, give him a 90-91. If you have some impressions of him handling whatever few leg kicks have been thrown at him well, give him a 91-92. At a stretch, since he's McGregor, one could see him getting a 93 (but only because of his poster boy status). Etc, etc.

TLDR:
Remember what the middle ground is (90)

Consider the fighter's general history with leg kicks, and that doesn't mean only the times his legs got smashed - if you notice he checks them every now and again or even if he generally responds well to them - keep that in mind.

Consider who they are facing and what kind of leg kicking history they themselves have to determine how severe or rewarding you should be with the rating. Also keep in mind that the kicker can get a buff as well, it's not all nerfs for the receiver.

PS: I'm not sure why you made this thread, the ratings are mostly good, I can't think of anything really outrageous (except for maybe Cerrone's body health of 80, but perhaps someone else will address that). It's just that Conor's stats in these areas are really inflated, 96 indicates someone whose legs are extremely difficult to damage even after a concentrated attack on them. Oh, and when I say "you" in the post I don't necessarily mean @aholbert32. Just the expression.

Really good post. I dnt even have to say anything anymore.

[aholbert32]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

Serious question: do people think that there is a significant difference in real life, fighter to fighter, in leg health? Chin there is, body I can see, I can’t honestly say I’ve ever looked at a fighter and been like “oh yeah that guy is really good/bad at eating leg kicks.” Some are better at checking them, but that’s not the same thing and that isn’t what this rating does.

This is a valid point. There are some guys who I think take leg kicks better than others but I'm not sure if the difference is big enough to adequately express that through ratings.

Take body strength and Cerrone for example. He has an extremely low body strength rating. Why? Because he has been stopped multiple times from body shots AND has been hurt there even more. With that said people similar to Cerrone are few and far between. I cant think of a ton of UFC fighters who are great or really bad at taking body shots. If anything, the only tell about whether someone is good at taking strikes to the body is how much those strike drain them but thats more of a stamina/endurance thing imo.

With 250 plus fighters using some of the suggestions listed here, we would be looking at 5-10 fighters at the low end (guys like Cerrone), 200 plus around 89-91 (the majority of the fighters who have never been hurt to the body) and maybe a few at the top end.

Would you guys want that? Should we be looking at eliminating the leg and body strength categories as a whole?

[Kingslayer04]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

This is a valid point. There are some guys who I think take leg kicks better than others but I'm not sure if the difference is big enough to adequately express that through ratings.

Take body strength and Cerrone for example. He has an extremely low body strength rating. Why? Because he has been stopped multiple times from body shots AND has been hurt there even more. With that said people similar to Cerrone are few and far between. I cant think of a ton of UFC fighters who are great or really bad at taking body shots. If anything, the only tell about whether someone is good at taking strikes to the body is how much those strike drain them but thats more of a stamina/endurance thing imo.

With 250 plus fighters using some of the suggestions listed here, we would be looking at 5-10 fighters at the low end (guys like Cerrone), 200 plus around 89-91 (the majority of the fighters who have never been hurt to the body) and maybe a few at the top end.

Would you guys want that? Should we be looking at eliminating the leg and body strength categories as a whole?

No from me. I think the stats are good and it's just McGregor who is too good compared to what he is in real life. It's great that you can gameplan for Diaz knowing his legs are vulnerable. Or Anderson Silva. Stats are the way to make sure these fighters' real life weaknesses are represented in the game. If you remove them, that's a step towards a stats equaliser. It would only be about how the player is able to deal with the leg kicks and not also about how Nate Diaz would deal with them.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

This is a valid point. There are some guys who I think take leg kicks better than others but I'm not sure if the difference is big enough to adequately express that through ratings.

Take body strength and Cerrone for example. He has an extremely low body strength rating. Why? Because he has been stopped multiple times from body shots AND has been hurt there even more. With that said people similar to Cerrone are few and far between. I cant think of a ton of UFC fighters who are great or really bad at taking body shots. If anything, the only tell about whether someone is good at taking strikes to the body is how much those strike drain them but thats more of a stamina/endurance thing imo.

With 250 plus fighters using some of the suggestions listed here, we would be looking at 5-10 fighters at the low end (guys like Cerrone), 200 plus around 89-91 (the majority of the fighters who have never been hurt to the body) and maybe a few at the top end.

Would you guys want that? Should we be looking at eliminating the leg and body strength categories as a whole?

Keep the stats

But I think the vast majority should fall into the bell curve. Let pure grapplers get below 89. Let thai fighters get 92+.