As of now what is the punishment for constantly going after failed submissions? Like how big is the stamina penalty? It seems as if players can just keep reattempting all match long with very minimal penalty. For some reason I believe there was a huge penalty for this in UD3, not sure it was stamina based but I think it was position based. Like if you went after a submission when you had no business doing so you got reversed or something similar. That needs to be implemented in this game because having a match with 15 submission attempts is just ridiculous.
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Last edited by teezie; 11-21-2018, 02:49 AM. -
Re: Submissions
It just gets easier to escape, but it gives them an advantage on the scorecards. One of many reasons we need to get rid of timed gates and have a sub system that works off using stamina during the sub in the first place.
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Re: Submissions
You can deny submission attempts. If you escape a sub, there's also a good chance you'll end up in top position (this itself is a bummer for grapplers, unless you're now stuck in their full guard/rubber guard).
Honestly, if someone is doing ANYTHING 15 times per match, it's up to you to figure it out the pattern or to stop it before even gets to the ground.
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Re: Submissions
True, there have been times I just could not figure what direction to deny. I honestly don't even get sub attempts too often and I don't even bother performing them. But I'd say the last 2/3 times they seemed to just be trying to spam them to exploit the judging in a fight they were losing. I think I just ended up being able to find the faster transistion rather than figure out the denial direction lol.
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Re: Submissions
When people are down on the cards, they're gonna try to get up on them.
If I've been grappling on the ground and there's no clear favourite, nearing the end of the round, I'll go for the sub, knowing I don't have time to finish it - but I can still get them in a dangerous position. Or if I get through 2 gates before the round ends, I've also inflicted some decent damage with the sub. I wouldn't even consider it cheese, but I embrace grappling and submissions.
Constantly Thai clinching against the cage, that's cheese. But generally it's done by poorer players who do it out of desperation.
Do you mind me asking what division you're seeing this sub spam? From my experience, the players who are spamming any kind of transition or sub on the ground, are normally doing it because they don't fully understand it. Similar to people who always want to throw first in the stand up - when in range, they just throw the same 2 or 3 combos they've learned in practice mode. They don't understand when those particular combos should be used, so just throw when in range and hope it lands.
I see some competent players, who I suspect aren't particularly good on the ground , but they aren't spamming getups or submissions. They take their time cause they know one or two wrong moves can mean the end of the fight.
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Re: Submissions
My biggest problem is (which I complain about every chance I get b/c I hate this sub system lol) is that the sub system shouldn't even be a time based system anyway. You should win or lose based on getting an advantage based on controlling the opponent in some way without 4 second gates. When people keep subbing, I just have to imagine it's one long sub battle. But we need a system where you can actually commit to a long sub battle (and of course shorter ones as well) and it goes off stamina.
I really hate the invisible fixed timer on gates so much lol. But if you were to win a round off holding onto ONE failed sub for almost a minute in a close fight, that's fine. It just looks crazy when and unrealistic when you can just keep applying multiple subs one after the other. They def need to implement stamina into subs during the act.
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Re: Submissions
So clinching against the cage is cheese, but throwing constant sub spam is totally fine and just something "the opponent needs to figure out how to deal with". That's a pretty selective narrative right there.
Non stop sub spam with zero set up or regards for stamina is waaaaaaay more cheesy, because you can just totally fluke out a win, even against someone who might be way better than you.
You're not fluking out a win against someone better than you trying to clinch them. That's for damn sure.
I'm not even good at this game and I've literally never been clinch ****ed. I do however find it a great technique to deal with low level to average pressure fighters. Clinch em and force feed em a few body knees and youll cut that pressure down real quick.
Good players can't get cought in the clinch like that tho. I've never been able to clinch a good player and get off real damage.
Good players can still fall prey to flukey sub spam tho, as seen in Esfl.Last edited by Haz_____; 11-21-2018, 02:02 PM.Comment
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Re: Submissions
Yeah, gotta go with Haz again on this one. The clinch, while not very fun, is perfectly defendable. Even when faced with a stat deficit. There are only a few things about the clinch I would say are exploitable, but the MT clinch ain’t one of them.
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Re: Submissions
Good players usually deny the vast majority of submission attempts, especially from spam. People just need to learn how to defend them better by mixing up their patterns and using all 4 directions to start with, and going down to 3 after you make more gate progress. Left and right, up and down patterns are more confusing to people attempting to submit you generally. The odds are stacked heavily against submission fighters, barely anybody gets submissions honestly.
Good players can get caught in thai and destroyed, it only takes one denial to really set things off in what can be a fight ending sequence against any player.Comment
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Re: Submissions
I think both issues are pretty bad. I had a bit of temporary amnesia and completely forgot how to properly block the head strikes from MT clinch for a while after not playing for a minute, and boy, was I going up against some MT clinch spammers during that time. These guys are doing it right off the bat too, so they must be having success with it. Beyond those MT clinch strikes just being too much, I don't like the fact that it basically makes every single fighter a MT specialist, only so many fighters show should even have that kinda power in clinch.
So beyond the fact people still think it's OP, It really takes away fighter uniqueness just giving everyone practically the same stopping power in MT clinch.
That and sub spamming need fixing.
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Re: Submissions
Not all fighters have the Muay Thai clinch entry. And the entry itself is extremely slow. Against good players it's extremely hard to even get them in a Plum Clinch against the cage at all. Then actually getting damage off from there is another battle.Comment
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Re: Submissions
Nope. Clinching against the cage isn't cheese.
"Constantly". Thai clinching against the cage, then losing the clinch and Thai clinching against the cage, then losing it again and going for another Thai clinch. It inspired me (pissed me off so much) to put time into the clinch on UFC 2, but I guess I still consider it cheesy.
Any chance you can link the flukey sub in ESFL? Or give me the title of the vid?
I can't recall not being able to deal with this sub spam when I stumble across it. I'm trying to think, perhaps these higher level sub spammers are faking into all these subs? Otherwise, denying these no-setup spam subs will be fairly straight forward for anyone who knows all the denials.
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Re: Submissions
There's a lot wrong with clinch, but striking wise MT clinch strikes simply don't need to be one and done. Whatever adjustments they make to clinch & mt clinch in the future, the power AND speed of clinch strikes need adjusting too. Power in MT knees and elbows should be lessened or more so have there own varied vulnerability and the speed needs to be faster.
I rarely look at ratings but are there even clinch striking ratings?
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Re: Submissions
Denying submissions is confusing as well. Do you use the same input you use to deny transitions or is it a set of different buttons. Although my entire point is that I really shouldn't have to do too much on my end to punish the players doing this. In striking, if a player is whiffing at air all match then the stamina tax will eventually catch up with them without me having to do anything. That is the same way the stamina should work for submission attempts but it is obviously tuned to be less of a stamina penalty than we see for striking.Comment
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Re: Submissions
It's not really confusing. It's the same buttons as denying a transition, yes.
With all due respect, the fact you didn't realise denying a submission is the same as denying transitions, makes me wonder how much time you've put into learning how to beat this sub spam.
Still waiting for a link or name of a video that highlights this issue.
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