Do not let this be passed by

[RomeroXVII]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

It's awesome to see a thread on this forum where everybody agrees.

A huge overhaul is needed for UFC 4 for the clinch and ground game, none of this exploit nonsense, or where it takes one denial and it's essentially GG.

[Leosbs]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

I would really like to see the kind of individuality that some fighters have in striking translated to some fighters in the ground.
Like Cruz and TJ have their unique lunges, Gaychee has his unique block, and other dudes with unique animations, strikes, combos, etc.
Why not have some grapplers with unique positions? Unique transitions and unique submissions?
Alexey Oleinik could have his deadly ezekiel choke from the bottom. Demian Maia his triangle from mount, like the one he used against sonnen(not the arm triangle that some guys have). That could even be a submission counter.
As far as the unique transitions and positions go, I can't name any from the top of my head, but things like taking the back from half guard bottom and hip toss from over/under into side saddle should definitely not be available to every fighter.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

As someone who does Jiu-jitsu there are definitely subtle things you can show as far as position and certain ways you can bait people to chase things.

When rolling I often post my outside hand on the mat when passing in half guard which is a big no no - but I did that to bait my partner to go for the predictable Kimura that we'd train there which when they chase it I'd then take their back or go for an arm triangle and hop over as they came up for the Kimura.

Now that doesn't have anything to do with how fakes are currently implemented but I'd love to be able to have access to certain transitions depending on what my opponent is or isn't doing that you could react to in real time. As in be able to show something to bait my opponent. Nogueira made a career for example out of letting people think they can get up of the ground and catching them there.

As far as fakes within the game as it exists now - it's not about if they're realistic or not really but more so that a system is just needed with how Simon says the grappling is. I mean grappling currently is all about punch punch pass which is terrible considering how OP grapple advantage is but nonetheless.

I'd love that kind of complexity.

[aholbert32]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

It's awesome to see a thread on this forum where everybody agrees.

A huge overhaul is needed for UFC 4 for the clinch and ground game, none of this exploit nonsense, or where it takes one denial and it's essentially GG.

I disagree with all of it especially the Big Nog point.............................


...................I'm playing. Good thread with good points.

I slightly disagree with the fighter individuality point. Not so much the point but I do think there are more animations than people give credit. For example, I've seen sweeps from high level grapplers like Maia and Jacare that 99% of the roster doesnt have. The reason why is that those sweeps only appear in particular positions (obviously) and very few people have them in their moveset.

Thats a moveset problem but I could spend days complaining about moveset issues. I love the idea of having an amateur and professional animations. Martial has been pushing for a similar thing when it comes to striking for years. Sloppy vs. Technical.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

I disagree with all of it especially the Big Nog point.............................


...................I'm playing. Good thread with good points.

I slightly disagree with the fighter individuality point. Not so much the point but I do think there are more animations than people give credit. For example, I've seen sweeps from high level grapplers like Maia and Jacare that 99% of the roster doesnt have. The reason why is that those sweeps only appear in particular positions (obviously) and very few people have them in their moveset.

Thats a moveset problem but I could spend days complaining about moveset issues. I love the idea of having an amateur and professional animations. Martial has been pushing for a similar thing when it comes to striking for years. Sloppy vs. Technical.

Oh yeah, that Martial suggestion is a must, it truly is.

As for the grappling and clinch, think about how cool it would be for them to be smooth and also some fighters to have signature moves there like with striking, like Khabib's leg lock + wrist control smesh, etc. In addition what Find The Door mentioned: certain traps you could set, as well as chain grappling, devastating SC clinch from guys like DC, damaging shots at separation from clinch (Jones), being able to really tire guys out too (only one stamina bar but still different rates of stamina loss on feet vs grappling)... Yeah, a bunch of stuff.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

The system is awful imo, but the lack of using the full 100 pt ratings system for these stats also don’t help.

What do you mean by this? The number of stages is defined by the move level, for most submissions. However, the gates' speed is affected by the actual 100 attribute.

Do you mean you wish fighters had super low values, like in Undisputed?

Ground stats need to matter again. I don’t know who’s terrible idea it was to make them not matter but it completely kills the realism.

The stats matter. They mattered more at UFC 3's launch, due to a bug. Then they were made to matter as much as in UFC 2.

When rolling I often post my outside hand on the mat when passing in half guard which is a big no no - but I did that to bait my partner to go for the predictable Kimura that we'd train there which when they chase it I'd then take their back or go for an arm triangle and hop over as they came up for the Kimura.

That sounds like punching with the hand holding the head, from full guard bottom, to bait a posture for a relatively easy get up.

[aholbert32]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

What do you mean by this? The number of stages is defined by the move level, for most submissions. However, the gates' speed is affected by the actual 100 attribute.

Do you mean you wish fighters had super low values, like in Undisputed?


The stats matter. They mattered more at UFC 3's launch, due to a bug. Then they were made to matter as much as in UFC 2.

Solid beat me to this.

What is weird to me is that the "stats dont matter" argument is a bit contradictory. We have a stats request thread that has almost 900 posts and many of those posts have multiple stat requests. If stats dont matter that much, why are there constant posts that ask for 1 or 2 point bumps for specific fighters in categories?

Solid is right about the bug but I do wonder if most people want what the OP is asking for. Before the first two patches, a constant complaint I was hearing was that guys like Khabib, GSP and Cormier were OP online simply because grappling stats were weighed heavier before the patches. That was also before things like the new takedowns and grappling stamina changes were made.

As a offline player, I would love to see more dominant grappling from top level grapplers whether its the AI or me. I dont know if most online players would want that though.

[1212headkick]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

What do you mean by this? The number of stages is defined by the move level, for most submissions. However, the gates' speed is affected by the actual 100 attribute.

Do you mean you wish fighters had super low values, like in Undisputed?


The stats matter. They mattered more at UFC 3's launch, due to a bug. Then they were made to matter as much as in UFC 2.


That sounds like punching with the hand holding the head, from full guard bottom, to bait a posture for a relatively easy get up.

Bring that bug back

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Do not let this be passed by

What do you mean by this? The number of stages is defined by the move level, for most submissions. However, the gates' speed is affected by the actual 100 attribute.

Do you mean you wish fighters had super low values, like in Undisputed?

Like Undisputed? How about like EA UFC 2 or 1 lol. Just use the entire point spread like before. I never saw any complaints about it. A lot of complaints can actually be fix with just spreading those ratings (very reminiscent of Madden’s issues every now and then when they start bunching their ratings). It fels great when you experiment with CAFs or messing around in UT.

[aholbert32]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

Like Undisputed? How about like EA UFC 2 or 1 lol. Just use the entire point spread like before. I never saw any complaints about it.

Undisputed didnt use the whole spread though. They used a bigger spread 60-100 for its roster fighters.

I will say this. How the game is currently set up, we couldnt use that stat range for health or stamina stats. The team gave some fighters stats in the low 80s for health or stamina and the consistent complaint that came back (especially at OS) was that these fighters were unusable. We spent the majority of updates raising those ratings (when supported by a recent real life performance) so that more fighters would be viable.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

Undisputed didnt use the whole spread though. They used a bigger spread 60-100 for its roster fighters.



I will say this. How the game is currently set up, we couldnt use that stat range for health or stamina stats. The team gave some fighters stats in the low 80s for health or stamina and the consistent complaint that came back (especially at OS) was that these fighters were unusable. We spent the majority of updates raising those ratings (when supported by a recent real life performance) so that more fighters would be viable.

I just added more to that post, but I would be content if they kept chin stats no lower than 80 for only I suppose. Best option is to add editable stats though for offline players. Esp if there’s ever a Universe mode of some sort implemented.

[aholbert32]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

I just added more to that post, but I would be content if they kept chin stats no lower than 80 for only I suppose. Best option is to add editable stats though for offline players. Esp if there’s ever a Universe mode of some sort implemented.

More like 85. Like I said, people really complained when stamina and chin stats were that low even for people who have shown that they gas or are chinny.

I'm with you on the editable stats but really the game play is what matters. For example if UFC 3 had editable stats and you edited everyone to 60-100 like Undisputed. Lets say you gave a guy like Jimi Manuwa a 65 in chin health or Mark Hunt a 66 in stamina....well the game is tuned so that even a guy with an 80 chin or 80 stamina has no chin or gasses easy.

So Manuwa would pretty much get KO'd the first time he was hit in a vulnerable position and Hunt would gas by the end of the first.

Same works for categories like top game and bottom game. If you give a guy a 65 in bottom game and he is facing Colby Covington who has a top game in the 90s...the guy on the bottom is never getting up.

Now you may be happy with that. Guys who are looking for an actual simulation would be. But people who want skill and what the player with the controller does to matter would hate it.

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

More like 85. Like I said, people really complained when stamina and chin stats were that low even for people who have shown that they gas or are chinny.



I'm with you on the editable stats but really the game play is what matters. For example if UFC 3 had editable stats and you edited everyone to 60-100 like Undisputed. Lets say you gave a guy like Jimi Manuwa a 65 in chin health or Mark Hunt a 66 in stamina....well the game is tuned so that even a guy with an 80 chin or 80 stamina has no chin or gasses easy.



So Manuwa would pretty much get KO'd the first time he was hit in a vulnerable position and Hunt would gas by the end of the first.



Same works for categories like top game and bottom game. If you give a guy a 65 in bottom game and he is facing Colby Covington who has a top game in the 90s...the guy on the bottom is never getting up.



Now you may be happy with that. Guys who are looking for an actual simulation would be. But people who want skill and what the player with the controller does to matter would hate it.

There's a balance that needs to be striked. I think what's missing there is the ability to assert dominance with every style and also legitimate weaknesses with every style.

Undisputed did this well in that you could finish the fight any time and from absolutely anywhere. When you won you felt like you truly found your opponents weakness and exploited it. You also needed to fight within your fighters strengths to do so.


Also look at this ground and pound - EA UFC 4 needs a ton of work in this regard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY9f2KrZyGc

[aholbert32]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

There's a balance that needs to be striked. I think what's missing there is the ability to assert dominance with every style and also legitimate weaknesses with every style.

Undisputed did this well in that you could finish the fight any time and from absolutely anywhere. When you won you felt like you truly found your opponents weakness and exploited it. You also needed to fight within your fighters strengths to do so.


Also look at this ground and pound - EA UFC 4 needs a ton of work in this regard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY9f2KrZyGc

Undisputed 3 is one of my all time favorite sports games. With that said, I sometimes think that people look at that game with rose colored glasses. Now maybe it was completely different online but offline, I wasnt forced to find an opponent's weakness and fight within my strengths to win all the time. At least not anymore than I have to in UFC 3.

One of the biggest issues I have with most online players analysis of the game is that at most they are regularly using or facing the top 30-50 fighters in the game. Now out of that 30-50, how many in real life have glaring weaknesses? The large majority are well rounded fighters. GSP can strike and grapple at a high level. Same with Cormier, Holloway, Poirier, Jones, Miocic, DJ, Dillashaw, Cejudo....I could keep going.

I see the difference as an offliner because I'm using the entire roster. I know there is a significant difference between a Mitch Gagnon and Dillashaw. A Wilson Reis to a DJ. I know that if I face a Reis or a Thales Leites with a striker, I have to avoid the ground and vice versa.

What sucks is that when we actually attempt to show provide a clear weakness that certain real life fighters have we get pushback. I would love to give someone like Ngannou below average stamina or Cerrone with lower body health. I would love it. But I promise you if the team took my suggestion and put in in the game, people would complain about him not being viable. Instantly.

Now to me, I would love an Ngannou that you would either have to pace yourself to use or just push the pace with the hope that you can finish in round 1. That would be amazing. I have zero confidence that the majority of online ranked players would want that though.

Now dont get me wrong. There are things we can do to improve the feel of fighters including certain stats. Whats funny is when thinking about the stats for UFC 4, I was actually thinking of raising the stats for certain fighters in certain categories. I look at someone like Dan Hooker and I dont think we did him justice simply because were were trying to have a wide range of fighter ratings. Hooker's standup stats were too low throughout the life of UFC 3.

I have alot of ideas for stats if im lucky enough to help with the stats again. The approach from my end will be different. I'm looking forward to it.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

More like 85. Like I said, people really complained when stamina and chin stats were that low even for people who have shown that they gas or are chinny.



I'm with you on the editable stats but really the game play is what matters. For example if UFC 3 had editable stats and you edited everyone to 60-100 like Undisputed. Lets say you gave a guy like Jimi Manuwa a 65 in chin health or Mark Hunt a 66 in stamina....well the game is tuned so that even a guy with an 80 chin or 80 stamina has no chin or gasses easy.



So Manuwa would pretty much get KO'd the first time he was hit in a vulnerable position and Hunt would gas by the end of the first.



Same works for categories like top game and bottom game. If you give a guy a 65 in bottom game and he is facing Colby Covington who has a top game in the 90s...the guy on the bottom is never getting up.



Now you may be happy with that. Guys who are looking for an actual simulation would be. But people who want skill and what the player with the controller does to matter would hate it.

Sorry, I’ve got a lot to unpack here lol...

I’d be content if they kept health stats (and maybe stamina) within 80. But a ratings spread only means using the entire spread like they did before. I’m not comparing the ratings to Undisputed, just EA UFC prior to this one. But Undisputed didn’t give fighters high ratings either. I still play it and keep making fighters too OP not realizing how low most ratings for roster fighters were. It’s hard to find anyone the had 90 ratings in that game. Your avg high rating was like an 85. Which is why a full use of ratings makes great fighters actually feel special.

Now in EA UFC, I’ve seen people complain about their fav fighters not being as good as they’d like, but outside of that, stats were never a big complaint. The game didn’t suddenly need a 80-100 cap.

We can go back to the typical rating spread and keep the game competitive with making striking defense and footwork better while also reducing some of these rocks to actual KOs and TKO moments and adjusting the stamina like people have wanted. All the things we’ve asked for like grappling changes can help balance competitive and realism as well as quick fights and decisions all at the same time. The game also needs to lower the output of strikes by not making it so combo heavy while increasing striking stamina.