Do not let this be passed by

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

Like Undisputed? How about like EA UFC 2 or 1 lol. Just use the entire point spread like before. I never saw any complaints about it. A lot of complaints can actually be fix with just spreading those ratings (very reminiscent of Madden’s issues every now and then when they start bunching their ratings). It fels great when you experiment with CAFs or messing around in UT.

The tricky thing is that the 80 doesn't necessarily mean 80%. "Using the whole breath" is not as meaningful as it seems. Instead, the feedback we can act on is increasing or decreasing the differences that we already have in the stats actual effects.

And when examining this, please take into account what aholbert mentioned: the high level vs low level fighters. If you face a rival in Career with a 20+ grappling stat gap on you (with the stats weight of UFC 3), I'm pretty sure you won't want to experience that in a PvP roster fight.

I for one think the current actual difference we have between high and low (roster) level is good for most stats, like grappling, power and speed. I think it's a bit excessive for stamina, actually; but that is more a qualitative problem with having two stamina bars and too many things stacking to make stamina better for some fighters.

[aholbert32]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

Sorry, I’ve got a lot to unpack here lol...

I’d be content if they kept health stats (and maybe stamina) within 80. But a ratings spread only means using the entire spread like they did before. I’m not comparing the ratings to Undisputed, just EA UFC prior to this one. But Undisputed didn’t give fighters high ratings either. I still play it and keep making fighters too OP not realizing how low most ratings for roster fighters were. It’s hard to find anyone the had 90 ratings in that game. Your avg high rating was like an 85. Which is why a full use of ratings makes great fighters actually feel special.

Now in EA UFC, I’ve seen people complain about their fav fighters not being as good as they’d like, but outside of that, stats were never a big complaint. The game didn’t suddenly need a 80-100 cap.

We can go back to the typical rating spread and keep the game competitive with making striking defense and footwork better while also reducing some of these rocks to actual KOs and TKO moments and adjusting the stamina like people have wanted. All the things we’ve asked for like grappling changes can help balance competitive and realism as well as quick fights and decisions all at the same time. The game also needs to lower the output of strikes by not making it so combo heavy while increasing striking stamina.

You keep saying "using the entire ratings spread" but Undisputed didnt. Try to find many or any fighters with a category under 60. I pulled up the game last night and couldnt find one under 62. So they werent using a 0-100 spread. Their spread was 60-100. If anything, THQ was stingier with their stats. There arent a ton of fighters with stats over 95-96 in categories. In the end, we are talking about the difference between a 20 point spread (80-100) and a 30 point spread (65-95)

I couldnt disagree with you more about stats complaints. People complained like crazy about stats in UFC 1 and 2. **** like Conor being an above average grappler made people crazy. The complaints lessened with UFC 3 but read that stats thread on OS. That thread isnt 860 posts deep for nothing.

I dont think you are fully thinking through your suggestion. Lets take stamina. So you say keep it between 80-100. So lets say we give Ngannou an 82. Now if someone uses Ngannou an 82 stamina in UFC 3, he will gas before the end of the second unless the player is fighting very conservatively (most players dont by the way).

So you say then "adjust stamina like people here want it". Well, people here want stamina to be more extreme. They want punching into the block to cause more stamina loss. ****, I've seem people here argue that movement alone should cause more of a stamina loss.

So you take that Ngannou who gassed in the 2nd and now he's gassing in the first because stamina loss is more severe. Again, this may be what you want. ****, offline I play with more severe stamina loss than the default game. But I do wonder if thats what everyone would want.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Do not let this be passed by

The tricky thing is that the 80 doesn't necessarily mean 80%. "Using the whole breath" is not as meaningful as it seems. Instead, the feedback we can act on is increasing or decreasing the differences that we already have in the stats actual effects.



And when examining this, please take into account what aholbert mentioned: the high level vs low level fighters. If you face a rival in Career with a 20+ grappling stat gap on you (with the stats weight of UFC 3), I'm pretty sure you won't want to experience that in a PvP roster fight.



I for one think the current actual difference we have between high and low (roster) level is good for most stats, like grappling, power and speed. I think it's a bit excessive for stamina, actually, but that is more a qualitative problem with having two stamina bars and two many things stacking to make stamina better for some fighters.

Gotta remember there was no handicap before this game. No one had issues with this beforehand. Keep the ratings somewhat competitive, but don’t put a hard handicap on them like this. Don’t just hand out 90s like candy either. Like I mentioned above, 90s are rare in UD.

Editable ratings are much needed, esp if they ever do some kind of Universe. Guys like Jones always go on crazy losing streaks in these games in career. So Jones can be just a few pts above avg as default, but so he can dominate in career modes, I want to be able to give him high 90s in some areas.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

@aholbert32, you seem to mix the change of 82 Stam Ngannou with a stamina tax on block, where both work together. It doesn't have to be like that. Maybe only one of those could be enough to achieve the desired result. Or 1 + a slight tweak of the other, etc.

That's the thing though, I'm just a fan/user, I'm not a developer so I don't know what combination of changes will result in what we (I) really want. I wish I had the game at my disposal like a sandbox to tweak certain parameters to my heart's content until I come to a satisfactory result .

As for the spread of stat points, perhaps a 30 point spread could do the trick. While doing the stats, don't think about STK OVR or GRP OVR, just each individual aspect (I believe you're doing that already). Sure, most people would have an average rating for most of the aspects, but could have a decent stamina, or a lot of power, etc., and in a world with a better damage/stamina system, the player would just cling to whatever the fighter's really good at, i.e. they can really put
all their eggs in the KO basket, since nothing else will do the trick if you have just a guy who hits pretty hard and everything else is **** to okay. That sort of thing.

By the way, which top fighters could be unusable due to a low rating in 1 or 2 of the many aspects a fighter can be rated in? I'm quite curious.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

There's a balance that needs to be striked. I think what's missing there is the ability to assert dominance with every style and also legitimate weaknesses with every style.

Undisputed did this well in that you could finish the fight any time and from absolutely anywhere. When you won you felt like you truly found your opponents weakness and exploited it. You also needed to fight within your fighters strengths to do so.


Also look at this ground and pound - EA UFC 4 needs a ton of work in this regard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY9f2KrZyGc

I think the stats effect for grappling are in a good spot. However, grappling still end sup being slightly underpowered, because GnP is a bit too hard to do and submissions are mostly weak, except for a few moves with few gates. I think the "middle" of the grappling is strong enough when it comes to making the stats shine, but the ends are not great.

[aholbert32]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

@aholbert32, you seem to mix the change of 82 Stam Ngannou with a stamina tax on block, where both work together. It doesn't have to be like that. Maybe only one of those could be enough to achieve the desired result. Or 1 + a slight tweak of the other, etc.

That's the thing though, I'm just a fan/user, I'm not a developer so I don't know what combination of changes will result in what we (I) really want. I wish I had the game at my disposal like a sandbox to tweak certain parameters to my heart's content until I come to a satisfactory result .

As for the spread of stat points, perhaps a 30 point spread could do the trick. While doing the stats, don't think about STK OVR or GRP OVR, just each individual aspect (I believe you're doing that already). Sure, most people would have an average rating for most of the aspects, but could have a decent stamina, or a lot of power, etc., and in a world with a better damage/stamina system, the player would just cling to whatever the fighter's really good at, i.e. they can really put
all their eggs in the KO basket, since nothing else will do the trick if you have just a guy who hits pretty hard and everything else is **** to okay. That sort of thing.

By the way, which top fighters could be unusable due to a low rating in 1 or 2 of the many aspects a fighter can be rated in? I'm quite curious.

The only reason I mixed it is because thats what Gentleman Ghost was suggesting.

FYI, I dont give a **** about OVRs. I never have and never will. I dont pay attention to it. That is something that the devs and Solid pay more attention to for balance reasons. I gradeeach category on its own and the OVR that results is what it is.

I've heard arguments that Cerrone is unusable online because he has extremely low body health. I've heard that Saki is unusable online because he has low takedown defense. Nate Diaz ive heard people make an argument is unusable because of his low leg health (which is ****ing insane).

I've heard countless complaints about stamina for multiple top fighters being too low and making them less viable. What I've found is it isnt always the stats fault. Its the players too.

For example, there were some stamina stats that we gave to certain fighters that were flat out wrong and I worked to correct them. There were also many that were 100% valid but still got complaints. You would think people would adjust their style and saying "Fighter X has an 86 in standing stamina but I love using him online. I'll have to pace myself and be more selective when using him online."

Instead they say "Why is Fighter X a 86? He should be a 90. He's unusable". When I respond and say "Well he's gassed in 5 of his last 6 fights", they get angry about realistic stats limiting the viability of certain fighters.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

@aholbert32, you seem to mix the change of 82 Stam Ngannou with a stamina tax on block, where both work together. It doesn't have to be like that. Maybe only one of those could be enough to achieve the desired result. Or 1 + a slight tweak of the other, etc.

That's the thing though, I'm just a fan/user, I'm not a developer so I don't know what combination of changes will result in what we (I) really want. I wish I had the game at my disposal like a sandbox to tweak certain parameters to my heart's content until I come to a satisfactory result .

As for the spread of stat points, perhaps a 30 point spread could do the trick. While doing the stats, don't think about STK OVR or GRP OVR, just each individual aspect (I believe you're doing that already). Sure, most people would have an average rating for most of the aspects, but could have a decent stamina, or a lot of power, etc., and in a world with a better damage/stamina system, the player would just cling to whatever the fighter's really good at, i.e. they can really put
all their eggs in the KO basket, since nothing else will do the trick if you have just a guy who hits pretty hard and everything else is **** to okay. That sort of thing.

By the way, which top fighters could be unusable due to a low rating in 1 or 2 of the many aspects a fighter can be rated in? I'm quite curious.

We can make a difference from 20 to 100 have any effect we want. They don't work like literal percentages. So the real questions are:

1- How much difference should there be between low and high level?

2- How much granularity do we need?

I think the 20 points are fine for granularity. Having 30 points would increase granularity. But if what you want is more extreme differences, the 30 points thingy doesn't have much to do with it.

BTW, I realize this stuff is quite a bit counter-intuitive.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

The only reason I mixed it is because thats what Gentleman Ghost was suggesting.

FYI, I dont give a **** about OVRs. I never have and never will. I dont pay attention to it. That is something that the devs and Solid pay more attention to for balance reasons. I gradeeach category on its own and the OVR that results is what it is.

I've heard arguments that Cerrone is unusable online because he has extremely low body health. I've heard that Saki is unusable online because he has low takedown defense. Nate Diaz ive heard people make an argument is unusable because of his low leg health (which is ****ing insane).

I've heard countless complaints about stamina for multiple top fighters being too low and making them less viable. What I've found is it isnt always the stats fault. Its the players too.

For example, there were some stamina stats that we gave to certain fighters that were flat out wrong and I worked to correct them. There were also many that were 100% valid but still got complaints. You would think people would adjust their style and saying "Fighter X has an 86 in standing stamina but I love using him online. I'll have to pace myself and be more selective when using him online."

Instead they say "Why is Fighter X a 86? He should be a 90. He's unusable". When I respond and say "Well he's gassed in 5 of his last 6 fights", they get angry about realistic stats limiting the viability of certain fighters.

Thanks for your response.

Yeah I remember that talk about Saki's grappling being **** — I agreed with you back then, what do they expect, there's a good reason for it. Cerrone is anything but unusable online and if his body health's bad, there's a bunch of other things he's good at, alongside his tools in terms of moveset, to win fights with. Nate Diaz is also perfectly usable, if a bit peculiar, but that's great as we need as much fighter diversity as possible. His leg health is completely warranted. So what does it boil down to? People refusing to adapt and be objective and realistic about the fighter they're using.

Let's take really well-rounded fighters though. I had a discussion once about Stipe having no glaring weaknesses which would presumably make him OP in the kind of environment I want. Things go both ways though — in such an environment, he can also get knocked out, especially in his division. Plus, in the environment I want, landing clean would be more difficult than it is now.

Or Jon Jones. Yeah, he's very good, but his boxing is suspect. So look to get inside and box. He's also somewhat susceptible to leg kicks. Try using those, and in the kind of environment I would like, they would slow down his movement and weaken his kicks. Yes, the weaknesses aren't many but they shouldn't be. Also, keep in mind that fights won't win themselves just because of stats — the player will have to be skilled enough to use his strengths to his advantage.

And in the extreme case in which all else fails, make guys like Jones S-Tier, like Philly suggested, and have those guys yield very few points.

[SajBerimBolo]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

As someone who does Jiu-jitsu there are definitely subtle things you can show as far as position and certain ways you can bait people to chase things.

When rolling I often post my outside hand on the mat when passing in half guard which is a big no no - but I did that to bait my partner to go for the predictable Kimura that we'd train there which when they chase it I'd then take their back or go for an arm triangle and hop over as they came up for the Kimura.

Now that doesn't have anything to do with how fakes are currently implemented but I'd love to be able to have access to certain transitions depending on what my opponent is or isn't doing that you could react to in real time. As in be able to show something to bait my opponent. Nogueira made a career for example out of letting people think they can get up of the ground and catching them there.

As far as fakes within the game as it exists now - it's not about if they're realistic or not really but more so that a system is just needed with how Simon says the grappling is. I mean grappling currently is all about punch punch pass which is terrible considering how OP grapple advantage is but nonetheless.

As someone who also trains, I have a hard time picturing that above scenario, might work but sounds unrealistic and risky. If I’m playing half guard and attack your posted hard with a kimira, correctly, I don’t see how I get arm triangled. Unless you’re way bigger and stronger than me

A better example would be passing the guard. There are many passes that work off misdirecting your opponents guard, I.e his legs, but I don’t know if this is the equivalent of ‘transition fakes’.

When you watch high level grapplers vs other high level grapplers, it’s rare to see them (some times) pass the guard on the first attempt. Rather, it’s their 4th, 5th even 6th consecutive attempt that might get them the pass. So what happens is they chain all these pass attempts and see which one they can catch you out with

For example Grappler A knee slices to the left side. Grappler B defends by framing and using reverse de la Riva to stop the pass.
Grappler A pops off the reverse de la Riva hook and torrenados. Grappler B frames and uses a knee shield to avoid the pass. Grappler A turns this into a smash pass. Grappler B frames and pushes away to defend the smash pass, grappler A uses this momentum to go straight back into the kneesllice (leandro lo style) and secures the pass eventually.

What happened here was a string of intelligent pass attempts used by Grappler A. Grappler B defend all well, but Grappler A being the better grappler, was able to get into his passing game and time the pass he wanted perfectly on Grappler B.

There needs to be some intelligence to the grappling. So the grapplers can use our ‘grappling brain ‘ and try outsmart players online using our grappling knowledge. Same way the intelligent strikers who play this game can use their real life skills.

I can make a video of this on the mats if anyone will be interested

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

As someone who also trains, I have a hard time picturing that above scenario, might work but sounds unrealistic and risky. If I’m playing half guard and attack your posted hard with a kimira, correctly, I don’t see how I get arm triangled. Unless you’re way bigger and stronger than me



A better example would be passing the guard. There are many passes that work off misdirecting your opponents guard, I.e his legs, but I don’t know if this is the equivalent of ‘transition fakes’.



When you watch high level grapplers vs other high level grapplers, it’s rare to see them (some times) pass the guard on the first attempt. Rather, it’s their 4th, 5th even 6th consecutive attempt that might get them the pass. So what happens is they chain all these pass attempts and see which one they can catch you out with



For example Grappler A knee slices to the left side. Grappler B defends by framing and using reverse de la Riva to stop the pass.

Grappler A pops off the reverse de la Riva hook and torrenados. Grappler B frames and uses a knee shield to avoid the pass. Grappler A turns this into a smash pass. Grappler B frames and pushes away to defend the smash pass, grappler A uses this momentum to go straight back into the kneesllice (leandro lo style) and secures the pass eventually.



What happened here was a string of intelligent pass attempts used by Grappler A. Grappler B defend all well, but Grappler A being the better grappler, was able to get into his passing game and time the pass he wanted perfectly on Grappler B.



There needs to be some intelligence to the grappling. So the grapplers can use our ‘grappling brain ‘ and try outsmart players online using our grappling knowledge. Same way the intelligent strikers who play this game can use their real life skills.



I can make a video of this on the mats if anyone will be interested

My mistake I don't even know why I said arm triangle there what I meant was D'arce choke (don't ask me how I typed that instead I couldn't tell you)

As far as a pass there - there's quite a few depending on what your opponent does with their legs to posture for the Kimura.

[SajBerimBolo]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

My mistake I don't even know why I said arm triangle there what I meant was D'arce choke (don't ask me how I typed that instead I couldn't tell you)

As far as a pass there - there's quite a few depending on what your opponent does with their legs to posture for the Kimura.

You probably have long *** arms im guessing

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Do not let this be passed by

You probably have long *** arms im guessing

Yes exactly

Anacondas and D'arce are my favorites for that reason

I'm 6'3 215