Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

[Good Grappler]

So right now, I think the game suffers from a complete and utter lack of differentiation between BJJ and wrestling, once on the mat. Once you hit the mat, it doesn’t really matter what your grappling background is - we’re all playing the exact same game by the exact same rules. And this game is very BJJ oriented.

For that reason, mat grappling ALWAYS favors the superior BJJ fighter. There is no incentive to ever engage on the mat with an opponent using Demian Maia or Nate Diaz, because as soon as it hits the mat, you’re playing “EA UFC ground game” - a game where all that matters are BJJ stats.

When in reality wrestlers can engage BJJ guys on the mat, and do quite often. They just don’t do it by fully committing to a positional BJJ battle. They engage from the top position, but are always ready to disengage. Wrestlers are superior scramblers, remember. If a wrestler is going for a pass to half guard and their BJJ opponent begins to try something - you best believe the wrestler is bailing outta there or sprawling! No way he’s just gonna clumsily get rolled to his back. If a wrestler is in back side, then the BJJ guy begins to roll to full guard, you think the wrestler will just stay on his knees and wait to posture back down into their closed guard? Hell no! They’re either bailing, or controlling a leg, or anything to avoid committing to that guard.

I know it’s no easy task to emulate this in an MMA game. But it should be possible to grapple like a WRESTLER on the mat. Sprawling should be much more dynamic. BAILING should be a thing. I shouldn’t ever be committing fully to guard if I don’t want to.

A “position by position” ground game, where every movement is either a transition to, or from one of those positions, is boring. The grappling shouldn’t be so positional - it should be more active and hands-on. Get rid of the denials and GA garbage, which only causes stagnant grappling and discourages activity. The only time a fighter should be stagnant in EA UFC 4 is because they’re choosing to, because they’re either gassed or stalling.

I’m done with MMA games where I’m using a wrestler, but once it hits the mat it’s “everything the development team learned from those EA sponsored BJJ classes a couple years ago” mode.

If Ben Askren is in the next game, and I’m forced to play the full guard, half guard, knee slice pass, BJJ 101 for 3 stripe white belts, “EA UFC ground game” stuff again, I’ll die of tuberculosis.

[jayb_270]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

I agree. MMA is more wrestling influenced than any other combat sport with the emphasis on top control, stand up, TD defense ect. Ground game is so vanilla


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[ZHunter1990]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

So right now, I think the game suffers from a complete and utter lack of differentiation between BJJ and wrestling, once on the mat. Once you hit the mat, it doesn’t really matter what your grappling background is - we’re all playing the exact same game by the exact same rules. And this game is very BJJ oriented.

Id love to see grappling background determine grappling transitions/positions available and be a bigger part of creating a more dynamic grappling meta. FWIW Ive passed off quite a few suggestions regarding many wrestling positions off to the devs the past few years.

I know it’s no easy task to emulate this in an MMA game.But it should be possible to grapple like a WRESTLER on the mat. Sprawling should be much more dynamic. BAILING should be a thing. I shouldn’t ever be committing fully to guard if I don’t want to.

A “position by position” ground game, where every movement is either a transition to, or from one of those positions, is boring. The grappling shouldn’t be so positional - it should be more active and hands-on. Get rid of the denials and GA garbage, which only causes stagnant grappling and discourages activity. The only time a fighter should be stagnant in EA UFC 4 is because they’re choosing to, because they’re either gassed or stalling.

You said it yourself, it is no easy task. We have had position by position grappling in every game to date. It is hard to imagine a way to emulate the amount of dynamics that exist in grappling. Tiny nuances that seem insigifcant yet are so important. The variations in a position alone that lend an advantage to either fighter..etc

My guess is that a sort of free form physics based grappling system that allows each fighter full control of each limb would be the alternative, and while that sounds juicy I also imagine it would be stupid expensive to develop. Especially considering that 95% of consumers wont give a **** anyways. How would you justify an expense like that?

I’m done with MMA games where I’m using a wrestler, but once it hits the mat it’s “everything the development team learned from those EA sponsored BJJ classes a couple years ago” mode.

To be fair, their classes are run by Pro fighters/MMA coaches with quite a bit of experience out of one of/if not the most reputable MMA Gyms in the area there. It wasnt just a few EA Sponsored BJJ classes. But I get your point.

If Ben Askren is in the next game, and I’m forced to play the full guard, half guard, knee slice pass, BJJ 101 for 3 stripe white belts, “EA UFC ground game” stuff again, I’ll die of tuberculosis.

BJJ 101 for 3 stripe white belt is far more experienced than your average EA UFC player or potential buyer. While I feel your pain, you have to ask yourself what you think EA's target audience is and go from there. Will a potential buyer see Askren put someone in a cradle in a trailer and instantly say "I have to buy this game!"? To you and I, and most of the others on this forum, that would be hype. But it would likely be insignificant to most people.

Disclaimer: Im not saying that we won't see changes to the grappling, or more wrestling-esque positions..etc..

[Good Grappler]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

To be fair, when I say “3 stripe white belt 101”, I don’t literally mean that the level of BJJ displayed in the game is too amateurish for me. I’m just trying to emphasize the saminess of the grappling system.

And also I’m sure it wasn’t literally some EA employees in plastic gis who showed up and bull****ted a few hours of BJJ. I’m well aware it was world class instructors. I’m just trying to emphasize my points with a bit of obviously ridiculous humor. But it sounds like you got my points anyways.

And lastly, I’m not saying it needs to be “Askren doing full blown cradles”. Don’t get me wrong, I would literally show up at EA headquarters throwing $100 dollar bills on their front sidewalk, but that’s not what I mean. Just a little differentation. Maybe a good start would be to allow inter-scramble bailing (a wrestler can just disengage when a BJJ guy begins mustering something up), and a more dynamic sprawl system (wrestler can just resort to sprawling from all sorts of positions and to counter all sorts of sweeps and scrambles).

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

To be fair, when I say “3 stripe white belt 101”, I don’t literally mean that the level of BJJ displayed in the game is too amateurish for me. I’m just trying to emphasize the saminess of the grappling system.

And also I’m sure it wasn’t literally some EA employees in plastic gis who showed up and bull****ted a few hours of BJJ. I’m well aware it was world class instructors. I’m just trying to emphasize my points with a bit of obviously ridiculous humor. But it sounds like you got my points anyways.

And lastly, I’m not saying it needs to be “Askren doing full blown cradles”. Don’t get me wrong, I would literally show up at EA headquarters throwing $100 dollar bills on their front sidewalk, but that’s not what I mean. Just a little differentation. Maybe a good start would be to allow inter-scramble bailing (a wrestler can just disengage when a BJJ guy begins mustering something up), and a more dynamic sprawl system (wrestler can just resort to sprawling from all sorts of positions and to counter all sorts of sweeps and scrambles).

I'm no grappling specialist but should a wrestler be able to just disengage in every conceivable situation? That being said, I am left with the impression that wrestlers usually get the better of BJJ practitioners: GSP vs Diaz, RDA and Henderson vs the other Diaz, Usman, and Colby too, I guess, vs Maia...

My question still stands though, should a wrestler be able to disengage to safety every time they get cold feet based on real life? I absolutely get it for it to be a viable option and sometimes easier, sometimes more difficult to pull off, but surely the BJJ fighter can successfully muster something in order to keep the fight in their guard. Even if this may often not be easy. It just read as the BJJ fighter is pretty much ****ed every time they hang with a wrestler in your scenario.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

This is interesting because even Colby and Usman wanted no parts of Maia on the ground

Will Askren vs Maia be another standup war because of Maia’s BJJ?

I do agree with the overall point but I dunno if it’s possible to bail against world class grapplers at will.

Should we able to try? Hell yeah. I miss the “get up” button from UFC1 and would love it to return as some form of scrambling mechanic.

If they do add anything I hope Askren is able to lay the blue print against Maia

[rabbitfistssaipailo]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

If the devs can figure out a way for hand fighting , wrist control , as well as holding ankles for control ...we are halfway there .

These things are already in the game's ,yes the animations are already there . It's just that they are just animations and based on other mechanics.

You can even block strikes when you are on- top or in some one's guard . Because full mount isn't dangerous if you can't block transitions. These things are absolutely important.





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[Kingslayer04]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

This is interesting because even Colby and Usman wanted no parts of Maia on the ground

Will Askren vs Maia be another standup world because of Maia’s BJJ?

I do agree with the overall point but I dunno if it’s possible to bail against world class grapplers at will.

Should we able to try? Hell yeah. I miss the “get up” button from UFC1 and would love it to return as some form of scrambling mechanic.

If they do add anything I hope Askren is able to lay the blue print against Maia

Yeah, that Usman example may not be the best on my part as I actually missed that fight but I thought Usman would neutralise him and afterwards I read some comments which indicated that's how the fight went. I probably have to see it for myself. I definitely have to if I'm going to use it as an example. Didn't Colby kinda do that once he was done getting lit up by Maia though? I did see that one

[Good Grappler]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

As a wrestler, I shouldn’t have to play the BJJ game of advancing from position to position with traditional BJJ passes. I would think the “home base” for a wrestler on the mat would be a front head lock with their legs back. Instead of transitioning from position to position like a BJJ fighter, I could sorta circle around my opponent, looking for a ride or sprawl, never committing to any one position.

As a wrestler, I want to feel like I’m sorta floating around in top position - always on them, but never on their terms. On one hand, it leaves enough distance for my opponent to scramble or attempt to standup, but it also keeps me far from the BJJ play.

And I want to have control over when to push into them and when not to.

So say I’m floating around in top position, circling away from their guard, and end up in back side. From here I’d “hold” - really engage the position. This is a good control position with little threat of a submission from my opponent. But if they attempt to roll to guard, I could release the hold, and disengage. So when they complete the roll, no one’s in their guard. But then if they try to stand up, I could engage them again and bring them back down to the mat.

So it’s like I’m always on them, but never really giving them any opportunities to work their BJJ. And when they get fed up and try to stand up, I could wrestle then down again.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

As a wrestler, I shouldn’t have to play the BJJ game of advancing from position to position with traditional BJJ passes. I would think the “home base” for a wrestler on the mat would be a front head lock with their legs back. Instead of transitioning from position to position like a BJJ fighter, I could sorta circle around my opponent, looking for a ride or sprawl, never committing to any one position.

As a wrestler, I want to feel like I’m sorta floating around in top position - always on them, but never on their terms. On one hand, it leaves enough distance for my opponent to scramble or attempt to standup, but it also keeps me far from the BJJ play.

And I want to have control over when to push into them and when not to.

So say I’m floating around in top position, circling away from their guard, and end up in back side. From here I’d “hold” - really engage the position. This is a good control position with little threat of a submission from my opponent. But if they attempt to roll to guard, I could release the hold, and disengage. So when they complete the roll, no one’s in their guard. But then if they try to stand up, I could engage them again and bring them back down to the mat.

So it’s like I’m always on them, but never really giving them any opportunities to work their BJJ. And when they get fed up and try to stand up, I could wrestle then down again.

You can't just give the other guy what sounds like some divine advantage just because it's a wrestler you're using.

I see what you're saying and it would be great if the two styles differed more and it were a possibility to tread more carefully on top, but the BJJ player has to have some tricks up his sleeve as well. And as usual, this should 100% percent be determined by two things: player skill and fighter stats. Both extremely important. Not all wrestlers are GSP or Khabib. And against a Demian Maia, you better be using a similar level wrestler if you're going to be hanging with him on the ground at all, carefully or not.

It just sounds like you are completely disregarding the BJJ fighter which prompted me to ask what about them? And what tricks could they have in such a scenario in real life? Perhaps ZHunter can chime in. But there has to be a counter-measure in principle that would work if the values of skill + fighter stats are close enough to each other.

[WarMMA]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

I've said this a lot in past threads. Aside from more wrestling based positions and transitions, what this games ground game is really missing is position holding...that's one of the main things wrestlers/grapplers do. Even when their posture isn't being controlled by the guy on bottom, they stay low and heavy in certain positions and hold the opponent down to maintain better control. This game doesn't allow you to do that. The game needs a system that gives you the ability of more free posture control, where you can stay low to maintain better control and hold certain top positions, without fully committing to the position. Undisputed 3 had this and because of this, you could actually effectively use a wrestling style in that game. That's what the game is lacking and why you feel like your constantly playing the bjj game. You can't really "hold" your opponent down...your constantly just trying to stop them from escaping in different directions. I made a post on position holding before and how I think it could work in this game. I'm sure most of you have maybe seen it already, but i'll post it here anyway just in case anyone didn't. If we had this kind of thing in the game, we'd be able to use a wrestling style much more effectively imo...



Position Holding System on Ground

Spoiler

How It Works
Firstly, the controls would be simple...block and hold the right stick left/right to hold position. Position holding will work hand in hand with the current system, so it will just be another option. You'll be able to hold position or deny at your own choice. Also if you're holding position, you'd be able to let go at any time to attempt a denial. Of course you'd have to be denying in time before the opponents transition goes through. The way I see this being implemented into the current EA UFC grappling system is by allowing it in certain positions only. Like more simple positions where we see guys trying to hold position irl. The upside to holding position is it will allow you to block any transition attempts. The downside is that blocking transitions with it won't grant GA like denials do and that it will also drain your short term stamina. Once your short term stamina drops below a certain threshold, transitions will automatically get through. This will make position holding more of a thing that has to be used strategically.



Positions It Could Be Used In
The positions I think holding can be used in are the more basic ones and the ones we see fighters try to hold and maintain irl.


Top Positions
Holding position from top would be able to be done postured down or after you break an opponents posture control.

DOM Full Guard: As you can see in the gif below, guy on top keeping his head/body down on the opponent to maintain pressure, stay heavy and hold position...

Spoiler

Spoiler

DOM Half Guard: In gif A, we see a close up look at head & arm control, which is used a lot in half guard and side control to keep pressure on and hold opponents down to maintain position. Then in gif B, see how the top fighter passes to half guard and right away grabs that same head & arm control, to hold down the opponent and maintain his new position.

A

Spoiler

B

Spoiler

DOM Side Control
Just like in the half guard, head & arm control is used a lot in side control to keep pressure on opponents and maintain position. Below we see it being used by the guy on top to maintain control of his opponent...

Spoiler

These are the three top positions I feel could use position holding. All other more difficult to hold top positions like mount, back mount, crucifix, ect would use strictly directional denials.


Bottom Positions
Now position holding would be more situational from bottom, as you'd only be able to do it when the top fighter's posture is down.

SUB Full Guard
Bottom fighter would use body locks or head&arm control from bottom to try and keep the top guy controlled...

Spoiler

Spoiler

SUB Half Guard
Similar to the full guard, bottom fighter would use body locks or head&arm control to try and keep the top guy controlled...

Spoiler

Spoiler

SUB Side Control
Now holding from side control bottom will work a bit differently. You'd only be able to block certain transitions in this position, as you can't really "hold" from here. It would let you put a knee up as the bottom fighter, blocking all transitions in the direction of your body. So that means it'll block mount transition, kimura, ect...

Spoiler

SUB Full Mount
This should really only block posture up attempts by the DOM. We already have holding from mount bottom, but it doesn't really block the posture up attempts...its like one attempt and they get out.

Spoiler

These are the bottom positions that I feel could use position holding. All other bottom positions would use strictly directional denials.





So those are my idea's on how position holding could work. Just some thoughts, as lots of players including myself, miss that aspect of the grappling from UD3 where it had that immersive feel of struggle and trying to control an opponent.

[Good Grappler]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

This is interesting because even Colby and Usman wanted no parts of Maia on the ground

Will Askren vs Maia be another standup war because of Maia’s BJJ?

This is what makes the fight so interesting. Askren isn’t like other wrestlers, who use their wrestling defensively from time to time. He uses his wrestling 100% offensively, every time, regardless of the opponent. I have no doubt in my mind that he will walk straight at Maia and try to take him down immediately. We will never see Askren sprawl and brawl or take a step backwards.

This is why I say Askren is one of the most entertaining fighters in MMA. He walks straight forward as soon as the bell rings, never takes a step back, not afraid of getting hit, not afraid to put himself in dangerous situations. He will go straight to the mat with one of the best BJJ fighters ever on Oct 26, that much I can assure you. What happens next, is one of the most fascinating questions of 2019

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

This is what makes the fight so interesting. Askren isn’t like other wrestlers, who use their wrestling defensively from time to time. He uses his wrestling 100% offensively, every time, regardless of the opponent. I have no doubt in my mind that he will walk straight at Maia and try to take him down immediately. We will never see Askren sprawl and brawl or take a step backwards.

This is why I say Askren is one of the most entertaining fighters in MMA. He walks straight forward as soon as the bell rings, never takes a step back, not afraid of getting hit, not afraid to put himself in dangerous situations. He will go straight to the mat with one of the best BJJ fighters ever on Oct 26, that much I can assure you. What happens next, is one of the most fascinating questions of 2019

I dunno man

Same could be said of Colby and Usman outside of the Maia fight.

I hope you’re right tho because this fight will really show the levels that exist within grappling

[Boiler569]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

Random thought --- one aspect of EA MMA's ground system that I like more than EA UFCs was the option to go for Minor Transitions vs. Major Transitions.

When in an opponent's full guard, you can try to methodically move to half guard, then advance from there --- or, go for broke, and try to move to side control or even Full Mount in one fell swoop.

Higher Risk, Higher Reward. Just adding this small feature into the ground game for UFC 4 would break-up (some) of the monotony of the Ground or even Clinch game.

[WarMMA]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

This is what makes the fight so interesting. Askren isn’t like other wrestlers, who use their wrestling defensively from time to time. He uses his wrestling 100% offensively, every time, regardless of the opponent. I have no doubt in my mind that he will walk straight at Maia and try to take him down immediately. We will never see Askren sprawl and brawl or take a step backwards.

This is why I say Askren is one of the most entertaining fighters in MMA. He walks straight forward as soon as the bell rings, never takes a step back, not afraid of getting hit, not afraid to put himself in dangerous situations. He will go straight to the mat with one of the best BJJ fighters ever on Oct 26, that much I can assure you. What happens next, is one of the most fascinating questions of 2019

Yh i'm thinking the same. I think Askren will take him down and maintain safe top positions like the guard, stack guard, back side or side control. He'll float around on top and get out of there when he needs to. Maia is most dangerous when he's on top and when he gets your back. Now if Maia takes Askren down, then it gets even more interesting...especially if he can get Askrens back. Cuz 9 times outta 10 if Maia gets your back, it's probably gonna be a wrap.