Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

[MacGowan]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

Yeah I don't have much hope for the grappling in UFC 4. I feel the sentiment is "casual audience don't care for grappling" so they're basically happy with a solid kickboxing game.

We were talking about the mythical "Grappling Patch" that never came. And it's not coming now either.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

I'm on the opposite opinion. Grappling has probably been the one thing that's on the dislike scale universally, for both casuals and more advanced players. I would be very surprised if it's not overhauled as that would make everyone happy.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

I have a funny story to tell you. Some while back in this forum, i asked the game developer Geoff Harrower why simple techniques such as butterfly guard, back body triangle, or on guard etc wasn't in the game before the release when the reveal about the ground game came out.

His excuse was that techniques like butterfly guard didn't happen frequently, hence why they had to prioritize. I said during Mousasi-Weidman fight, Mousasi used that technique frequently and gave him tons of other examples aswell.

Then he responded that it's mostly a budget issue, and can't mocap these techniques. Then all of the sudden, a trailer 2 weeks before the initial release, they had already implemented Demetrious Johnsons armbar suplex which he only used once, and used it in a UFC event against Ray Borg like three months before the game got gold. Now what should i make of this? You tell me .

The DJ suplex armbar was frankensteined together with existing animations. It was not mocapped and iirc, GPD and another dev stayed after real late one night getting it done.

That same move was used for a trailer which adds hype. So being that it didnt need mocap and it could be used as a selking point in a trailer, it seems like a no brainer to me.

Id love to see butterfly guard, 50/50, quarter guard, body triangles..etc but the reality is that the larger audience would not have cared in the least about seeing a trailer with any of these positions.

[1212headkick]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

The DJ suplex armbar was frankensteined together with existing animations. It was not mocapped and iirc, GPD and another dev stayed after real late one night getting it done.

That same move was used for a trailer which adds hype. So being that it didnt need mocap and it could be used as a selking point in a trailer, it seems like a no brainer to me.

Id love to see butterfly guard, 50/50, quarter guard, body triangles..etc but the reality is that the larger audience would not have cared in the least about seeing a trailer with any of these submissions.

DJ was on an interview saying he mocapped it. I cant find it but he said something along the lines of they saw him in an elevator and asked him to fo the mocap and he did. I'll find it though

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

DJ was on an interview saying he mocapped it

He's either mistaken, it doesnt exist, or that isnt exactly what he said.

Because he didn't mocap it.

[Gion]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

I'm on the opposite opinion. Grappling has probably been the one thing that's on the dislike scale universally, for both casuals and more advanced players. I would be very surprised if it's not overhauled as that would make everyone happy.

I feel the core of the grappling system is special and we absolutely shouldn't overhaul it, however serious changes should be made on the approach to overall grappling, transitions, and submissions. For instance using the left stick for upper body movement/minor transitions, holding positions, transition based subs, and gluing it together with "strike to pass, pass to strike" could make it incredibly more enjoyable

Sent from my SM-G960U using Operation Sports mobile app

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

I feel the core of the grappling system is special and we absolutely shouldn't overhaul it, however serious changes should be made on the approach to overall grappling, transitions, and submissions. For instance using the left stick for upper body movement/minor transitions, holding positions, transition based subs, and gluing it together with "strike to pass, pass to strike" could make it incredibly more enjoyable

Sent from my SM-G960U using Operation Sports mobile app

Well if not overhaul then big changes, yeah.

[Haz____]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

I feel like the grappling needs to be redone from the ground up. Holding a direction and watching a bar load does not make for exciting gameplay, while things like magic grapple advantage, and very unrealistic fakes break the "meta" in half and turn it into some weird mini game that feels nothing like grappling IRL.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

I feel the core of the grappling system is special and we absolutely shouldn't overhaul it, however serious changes should be made on the approach to overall grappling, transitions, and submissions. For instance using the left stick for upper body movement/minor transitions, holding positions, transition based subs, and gluing it together with "strike to pass, pass to strike" could make it incredibly more enjoyable

Sent from my SM-G960U using Operation Sports mobile app

That honestly sounds like an overhaul to me lol. I agree with all of those changes, I’m just not sure how some of them would work with this current system without big changes.

Subs HAVE to change for me. This system is at the bottom. Needs to be more “feel” based and not so fixed as far as how long a sub takes to pull off like in EA MMA. You should be able to possibly finish a sub in 3 seconds or a minute all depending on circumstances.

[TGOne]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

The DJ suplex armbar was frankensteined together with existing animations. It was not mocapped and iirc, GPD and another dev stayed after real late one night getting it done.

That same move was used for a trailer which adds hype. So being that it didnt need mocap and it could be used as a selking point in a trailer, it seems like a no brainer to me.

Id love to see butterfly guard, 50/50, quarter guard, body triangles..etc but the reality is that the larger audience would not have cared in the least about seeing a trailer with any of these positions.

Well to be honest that sounds inexcusable to me. If they could get that done through that method, a complex move like that, at that late stage, a move DJ only used once mind you they might aswell implement some of these fundemental grappling positions which are used more frequently and takes the ground game to another level of dynamism, because at this stage the grappling and animations is bare bones (so is the career mode and CAF). Which is one one major reasons why the player base doesn't engage in grappling but uses the striking far more often which the devs used as an excuse through their data analysis that i remembered quite clearly.

The trailer shown is not my issue. I don't see how that move by DJ in a trailer gives any incentive to purchase a MMA game, people purchase a game out of what content it has. That's the misdirection they got with the "press conference" footage they shown which wasn't even a major part of the career mode. DJ doesn't even have a large fanbase to begin with, if he did which would generate money, well then UFC wouldn't trade him with Ben Askren.

The core audience of this game are UFC/MMA fans, and most of them at this stage agree that the grappling needs fundemental changes and still compares this game to Undisputed 3, so does the career mode. The "casual" audience wants fight night from EA. Now if they can't deliver on fundemental aspects of an MMA game (which grappling is part of), but wants soley attract these "casual" audience, they might aswell go back to fight night which EA in the past was good at, and leave this sport to developers that has a genuine passion and understands it (which THQ did).

I also have a question. Have you as a gamechanger seen the gameplay yet or it's content? Are you allowed to say anything?

[aholbert32]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

He's either mistaken, it doesnt exist, or that isnt exactly what he said.

Because he didn't mocap it.

I can back that up. GPD stitched together animations to create that move.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

Well to be honest that sounds inexcusable to me. If they could get that done through that method, a complex move like that, at that late stage, a move DJ only used once mind you they might aswell implement some of these fundemental grappling positions which are used more frequently and takes the ground game to another level of dynamism, because at this stage the grappling and animations is bare bones (so is the career mode and CAF). Which is one one major reasons why the player base doesn't engage in grappling but uses the striking far more often which the devs used as an excuse through their data analysis that i remembered quite clearly.

The trailer shown is not my issue. I don't see how that move by DJ in a trailer gives any incentive to purchase a MMA game, people purchase a game out of what content it has. That's the misdirection they got with the "press conference" footage they shown which wasn't even a major part of the career mode. DJ doesn't even have a large fanbase to begin with, if he did which would generate money, well then UFC wouldn't trade him with Ben Askren.

The core audience of this game are UFC/MMA fans, and most of them at this stage agree that the grappling needs fundemental changes and still compares this game to Undisputed 3, so does the career mode. The "casual" audience wants fight night from EA. Now if they can't deliver on fundemental aspects of an MMA game (which grappling is part of), but wants soley attract these "casual" audience, they might aswell go back to fight night which EA in the past was good at, and leave this sport to developers that has a genuine passion and understands it (which THQ did).

I also have a question. Have you as a gamechanger seen the gameplay yet or it's content? Are you allowed to say anything?

I dont think you are understanding. They were able to take the suplex and stitch it in with the armbar. Creating 1 animation.

Lets say they could stitch together the butterfly guard position off of the feet on hips animation from full guard.

At that point they would also have to have at least 2 moves for each fighter from the position, and 2 denials for each fighter from that position. Thats at minimum, 8 new animations that need to be mocapped, not including strikes from the position. Just for it to be functional in the meta.

So even if they stitched in the new position, they would still have had to do more mocap.

The "Core base" for this series is going or did buy the game regardless of if it was the DJ Armbar, or butterfly guard. A casual see's something like that and thinks its sick, now he buys the game. Or a guy was watching the fights at his buddies house and saw the suplex armbar live, he saw that trailer now maybe he is interested in the game because he saw you could do the MightyPlex on it.

It was a low budget move that added hype, that a couple of devs went the extra mile to add.

Also, EA has the licensing rights for nearly all UFC fighters. Why would they switch back to FN where they have to pay each boxer(Likely a ton of money) individually? Im not saying there wont be another FN, but I think dropping UFC to go after FN lrobably doesnt make that much sense financially. But Im not told any info on sales/profits or revenue so Im just making an assumption here. Though I dont think it would be a bad idea for EA to do both.

Furthermore, saying the devs are not passionate and dont understand the sport is off. Many of the devs train consistently, both in striking and Jiu Jitsu. Blue, purple, brown belts. All legit. Ive rolled with them. Their coach is also in the UFC.

Im not trying argue with you here. Im just telling you what I know and that I think your frustrations are a bit misguided being aimed at the devs.

Im one of the ones that posted on that list for positions we would like to see in the future, I would absolutely love to see some new ground positions. Especially with how grappling has evolved in recent years.

And, unfortunately I cannot comment on anything UFC4 related at all right now. When Im allowed to, I will though.

[aholbert32]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

Well to be honest that sounds inexcusable to me. If they could get that done through that method, a complex move like that, at that late stage, a move DJ only used once mind you they might aswell implement some of these fundemental grappling positions which are used more frequently and takes the ground game to another level of dynamism, because at this stage the grappling and animations is bare bones (so is the career mode and CAF). Which is one one major reasons why the player base doesn't engage in grappling but uses the striking far more often which the devs used as an excuse through their data analysis that i remembered quite clearly.

The trailer shown is not my issue. I don't see how that move by DJ in a trailer gives any incentive to purchase a MMA game, people purchase a game out of what content it has. That's the misdirection they got with the "press conference" footage they shown which wasn't even a major part of the career mode. DJ doesn't even have a large fanbase to begin with, if he did which would generate money, well then UFC wouldn't trade him with Ben Askren.

The core audience of this game are UFC/MMA fans, and most of them at this stage agree that the grappling needs fundemental changes and still compares this game to Undisputed 3, so does the career mode. The "casual" audience wants fight night from EA. Now if they can't deliver on fundemental aspects of an MMA game (which grappling is part of), but wants soley attract these "casual" audience, they might aswell go back to fight night which EA in the past was good at, and leave this sport to developers that has a genuine passion and understands it (which THQ did).

I also have a question. Have you as a gamechanger seen the gameplay yet or it's content? Are you allowed to say anything?

Serious question: What do you think is more likely to sell the game to public:

A clip of an acrobatic never before seen submission that the UFC was replaying the hell out of at the time.

or

A clip of fighter using 50/50 and butterfly guard.

For me, I would be more excited about the latter but I'm not the audience that EA is trying to pull in with a trailer.

On another note, I really wish the devs would just come here and state clearly and definitively that the hardcore MMA/UFC fans are not the core audience of this game. They arent even the targeted audience of this game. The devs have told us that plenty of times and that info gets ignored by OSers time and time again.

Is the hardcore crowd important? Yep. Do they provide a ton of good feedback and are they loyal customers? Yep. But this audience has never been the one that EA has primarily marketed this game to. EA has been marketing this game to casual fans since UFC 1 (to mixed results).

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu need to be differentiated better ON THE MAT

Thought it's the right thread for this suggestion: being able to pull guard from the clinch. It should be a transition for certain fighters and if it fails they should just drop on their back without the opponent crashing in their guard. Dunno if they should incur minimal body damage the way they do after a trip. I wonder what stat should determine how successful vs. unsuccessful would work, I guess simply clinch grapple would be the one under the current system. But yeah, you need to be able to try to pull guard if that's where you want the fight to be. I'm also trying to remember if one can try to pull guard without actually being in the clinch as well.