Transition based submissions

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Why even have the fighters going thru the stages, if all were focused on is the mini game.

Like imagine when you went for a KO and a mini game popped up to either sub, follow up punch etc.

Why was the decision made to have a minigame anyways?

I think it was because submissions have always been a mini game and they didn't want to experiment in the chance it turns away casuals.

The thing is TBS is more casual friendly while also being feature deep enough for hardcores too.

TBS is basically submission position so it could be called that too.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Now that the devs are working on UFC 5 with a new engine, I hope transition based subs are being added. People have been asking for it pre EA UFC games, it would be the perfect time with a new engine. I remember Skynet said they are looking into it.



Here's my updated TBS:



Finishing a sub would require you to hold position for a some time. The timer is your GA, and different actions (transitions, strikes, denying) can increase or shorten the GA timer. Lower stamina and low GA means less time to escape. The defender can attempt transitions out of the deeper stages with a minor transition or out of the sub completely with a major transition. The attacker can transition into deeper positions with minor transitions or chain subs with major transitions or cancel. You could finish a sub around stage 3/4 but it takes more time than stage 5. Subs can have additional transitions available for variations like body triangle, belly down armbar, guillotine etc. Some positions take longer to finish but do more long term damage or stamina or vice versa.






You should be able to move in ground positions and submission positions and that affects available transitions or speed of the transition. The clinch and grappling should be one system again and it should include submissions too. Denials should work like blocking a strike so that you can chain transitions. The denier would be able to shine the stick along the available transitions and can block the transitions in that direction. The attacker would have to shine the stick in different directions and swoop the stick after maintaining an unblocked transition for a few secs then they would transition. Or do it like how turning take downs work now and make all transitions work that way. FTF subs should start at stage 4/5.

[johnmangala]

Re: Transition based submissions

Thank you so much for finally listening to all of us and replacing the mini games with TBS. I don’t have the new consoles so I haven’t played the beta but from the little I’ve seen it looks slick and pretty true to the suggestions in this thread. I especially like that there seems to be a **** ton of new animations for subs.


My issues are that the denial system remains instead of transition blocking like UD3. Also the ground animations seem the same along with the striking. I like the strategic depth added with the location damage and doc stoppages. But we really want fighter uniqueness.

It’s a travesty we are 10 years into ea ufc games and for eg Poirier still doesn’t have shifting combos. I hope we see some fighter specific grappling animations like Dagestani handcuffs or leg laces… or at least seated cage position. And that clinch seems largely untouched is disappointing. It was a great opportunity to integrate the seamless submission mechanics into all forms of grappling with transition blocking instead of the start stop denial system.

[The_Waterboy92]

Re: Transition based submissions

I’ll be curious how you guys who wanted a transition based system like the new sub system. I personally am not a fan of it, I like the struggle aspect of the mini game. It might not have been the best system but I felt it had a better representation of struggling to get a submission locked in. The new system feels too easy and pretty anticlimactic.

Could be because it’s all based on waiting to deny a transition. Deny one or 2 in a row, lock the sub in, meter fills up fast and it’s an auto sub

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Transition based submissions

I’ll be curious how you guys who wanted a transition based system like the new sub system. I personally am not a fan of it, I like the struggle aspect of the mini game. It might not have been the best system but I felt it had a better representation of struggling to get a submission locked in. The new system feels too easy and pretty anticlimactic.



Could be because it’s all based on waiting to deny a transition. Deny one or 2 in a row, lock the sub in, meter fills up fast and it’s an auto sub

I love the new system, makes getting put in a submission very dangerous which is how it should be. Previously triangle chokes for example were worthless and something you didn't even have to worry about.

[The_Waterboy92]

Re: Transition based submissions

I love the new system, makes getting put in a submission very dangerous which is how it should be. Previously triangle chokes for example were worthless and something you didn't even have to worry about.

Do you think there should be an element of struggle? Or are you ok with the simple deny and the sub mechanic?

[Find_the_Door]

Re: Transition based submissions

Do you think there should be an element of struggle? Or are you ok with the simple deny and the sub mechanic?

There is a struggle, it's R1 to make your opponent move.

[slikkster]

Re: Transition based submissions

Do you think there should be an element of struggle? Or are you ok with the simple deny and the sub mechanic?

At high levels, once people get used to it, it's going to play out much differently than the beta imo. People will start using fakes, the struggle mechanic, etc, to make it more of a battle. But also, the best way to get out of a sub in jiu jitsu/mma is to not get put into one in the first place. I'm glad that's better represented in this game.

[bmlimo]

Re: Transition based submissions

At high levels, once people get used to it, it's going to play out much differently than the beta imo. People will start using fakes, the struggle mechanic, etc, to make it more of a battle. But also, the best way to get out of a sub in jiu jitsu/mma is to not get put into one in the first place. I'm glad that's better represented in this game.

fake in subs? damm thats ugly

[Blackman316]

Re: Transition based submissions

best way to get out of a sub in jiu jitsu/mma is to not get put into one in the first place. I'm glad that's better represented in this game.

What do you mean? All subs were perfectly deniable in previous games.



The major thing that's changed is those stupid minigames.


I wasn't able to experiment much with it, but shouldn't everyone and their mothers just fake the submission (up), to switch and get the dominant position? There's still the "desperate escape" mechanic that I wouldn't know how to do. Either way: at least in this aspect the game seems to be better.

[The_Waterboy92]

Re: Transition based submissions

I hear what some of you guys are saying… my experience from the beta, which was primarily off-line because that’s what I play at home with the exception of online with my brother running our universe mode, was how much easier submissions are to get. I could deny one or two transitions, and then put the input in for the submission and I got it right away. There was no struggle, There was no fighting or anything. Online was the same but opposite, if I was on bottom and denied once or twice then I was subbed quick with no chance to fight.

I’m not saying the minigame was good, I didn’t really like it that much, but at least it felt like a struggle to win/lose a submission instead of automatically getting the sub victory Once I denied a transition or two. I fear it’ll make more people (especially newer players or not big online guys like me) far less likely to go to the ground… perpetuating the idea that people prefer stand up fighting when that might not be the case.

[slikkster]

Re: Transition based submissions

I hear what some of you guys are saying… my experience from the beta, which was primarily off-line because that’s what I play at home with the exception of online with my brother running our universe mode, was how much easier submissions are to get. I could deny one or two transitions, and then put the input in for the submission and I got it right away. There was no struggle, There was no fighting or anything. Online was the same but opposite, if I was on bottom and denied once or twice then I was subbed quick with no chance to fight.



I’m not saying the minigame was good, I didn’t really like it that much, but at least it felt like a struggle to win/lose a submission instead of automatically getting the sub victory Once I denied a transition or two. I fear it’ll make more people (especially newer players or not big online guys like me) far less likely to go to the ground… perpetuating the idea that people prefer stand up fighting when that might not be the case.

Against people who know what they’re doing, you’re not going to be able just hit a transition to escape straight away. Most importantly, you will need more emphasis on denying getting put in the sub in the first place. If you do get put in the sub, there is a struggle. It’s just now not a mini game, but a mind game. You have to wait someone out and deny their finish attempt to get grapple advantage. Or fake the escape to one side to get them to bite on the deny and then try to escape. Etc.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so you can like it or dislike it. But the main things I’m seeing people complaining about are that the subs are too easy and there is a lack of struggle. Which just isn’t true. It’s just because it’s a new mechanic that people aren’t experienced with yet.


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[slikkster]

Re: Transition based submissions

What do you mean? All subs were perfectly deniable in previous games.



The major thing that's changed is those stupid minigames.


I wasn't able to experiment much with it, but shouldn't everyone and their mothers just fake the submission (up), to switch and get the dominant position? There's still the "desperate escape" mechanic that I wouldn't know how to do. Either way: at least in this aspect the game seems to be better.

In previous games subs were deniable, yes. However, most subs didn’t have a sense of danger because you could escape fairly easily with the mini games (depending on fighter stats of course). But having a sub locked in on you rarely felt dangerous.

In real life, if you get locked into a sub, it’s a real bad situation. It should cause panic and fear to be in a position where someone has a sub locked in. The sub system recreates that more realistically than previous iterations in my opinion. Because once you are locked into a sub in this game, you have to be very thoughtful and methodical to get out of it.


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[The_Waterboy92]

Re: Transition based submissions

Against people who know what they’re doing, you’re not going to be able just hit a transition to escape straight away. Most importantly, you will need more emphasis on denying getting put in the sub in the first place. If you do get put in the sub, there is a struggle. It’s just now not a mini game, but a mind game. You have to wait someone out and deny their finish attempt to get grapple advantage. Or fake the escape to one side to get them to bite on the deny and then try to escape. Etc.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so you can like it or dislike it. But the main things I’m seeing people complaining about are that the subs are too easy and there is a lack of struggle. Which just isn’t true. It’s just because it’s a new mechanic that people aren’t experienced with yet.


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I hear why you saying. It might have that feel online especially with high level players, but I experimented mostly offline because I don’t play online and that’s where my experience with it is.

[Blackman316]

Re: Transition based submissions

I also play offline only and from my experience in 3/4 (at highest difficulty) fakes just don't work as the AI instantly counters it before you have a chance to pull back.

Or how do you trigger fakes? Is it to loosen the analog stick or to press R to cancel?

Either way it will depend on what the signs are. As I said, the defender should be weary to always defend the submission as that just ends the game right there. So you should easily be able to get the better position as beginners will likely panick-deny up so they don't lose.


We'll see how it ends up as it was very hard to practice given how offline play was somehow limited to about 12 fights unless you kept losing or made new accounts, and the game not telling you how to play. This is kind of the only feature that makes me contemplate buying the game, so if they screw it up it'll make for an easy decision.