Let's talk about the Striking/Stand Up.

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  • Counter Punch
    Pro
    • Apr 2018
    • 949

    #46
    Re: Let's talk about the Striking/Stand Up.

    Originally posted by DaisukEasy
    I'm sure you have, all I'm saying is that "We need more realism and less cheese" isn't an argument. It's a mission statement.


    Meant as neither. I was just stating things as a matter of fact.

    You personally? No idea. But some people definitely do, which is why I broke it down, just in case.


    You want fights to be more realistic and play out like they do in real life.
    You want whatever insight/instincts you've developed in real life, to translate to the game more than it does now.
    You do not want repetitive tactics based on frame advantage and unrealistic/counterintuitive gamemechanics

    Did I misunderstand anything?

    Like I said, I'm for all those things. A lot of us are. I'd reckon that even the devs want this to a degree. The question is, how do you create all the nuances of MMA with a simplified approximation? And that's assuming it's possible at all.

    I literally asked you how you'd fix the issues you bring up.

    I think you're overestimating the average player. People don't give two ****s about the nuances you bring up and that's assuming they even notice. They just want to throw bombs and hope for cool KOs..

    But even if that isn't the case, same question as before. How?





    Why are you assuming that "EVO players" whatever you mean by that, would somehow be in favor of these changes? Have you ever actually gone to EVO or even met anyone that has? What the hell does "appealing to them" even mean..



    Striking, assuming proper technique, is actually quite safe, even if someone puts their guard up. Not always, but usually. The tiny factors that determine whether or not a strike is safe on guard, don't really exist in the game as far as I'm aware though. So I'm not suprised by a simplified approximation of 'always safe on block'.

    If you can come up with a realistic, skillbased, practical and dynamic system to determine when you are and aren't safe on guard, I'd be all for it though.

    You can't here either.



    Have you ever seen Prime Anderson Silva? First 3 minutes, he literally just studies his opponents. Feints, pokes, nothing too risky. Once he's figured out their rhythm and tendencies, he starts moving his head, pressuring hard. The fact that it takes you three rounds isn't the games fault, that's on you.


    Entirely different win conditions, movement system, damage system, combinations, knockdown system, no juggles, no fireballs, no mids, no crouch.. So besides all of the core aspects, they're exactly alike..I guess?

    You keep saying that. I have yet to see you actually make the case.

    Dude this is a completely disingenuous response. I appreciate the effort you put into your reply but I literally can’t see a single argument you made in good faith, and it’s just beyond the scope of what I’m interested in responding to.

    Even your example of “power armour” is Lewis literally backing up not even throwing committed strikes LMAO.
    ...precision beats power and timing beats speed... and realism beats meta.

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    • DaisukEasy
      Pro
      • Jul 2016
      • 577

      #47
      Re: Let's talk about the Striking/Stand Up.

      Originally posted by Stealthhh
      No... UFC 3 striking but no slow down on block. I like the preset combos, I don't want to go back to UFC 1.

      That would require a complete overhaul of the current striking system.

      If your idea was implemented right now, you'd be back here tomorrow, complaining about combo spammers, cheesy guardbreaks, being forced into the RPS head-movement and matches not going longer than R1 1:30 etc..

      Originally posted by Counter Punch
      Dude this is a completely disingenuous response. I appreciate the effort you put into your reply but I literally can’t see a single argument you made in good faith, and it’s just beyond the scope of what I’m interested in responding to.
      Nice cop-out. I was actually completely genuine. Ironically, you now come across as a bad faith actor.


      Even your example of “power armour” is Lewis literally backing up not even throwing committed strikes LMAO.
      1) That's Rozenstruik
      2) He slept Arlovski that way:

      Ngannou definitely "armored" through. You can even see his head snap.

      But right, I'm the one arguing in bad faith.. lol
      Last edited by DaisukEasy; 07-24-2020, 06:56 PM.

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      • Counter Punch
        Pro
        • Apr 2018
        • 949

        #48
        Re: Let's talk about the Striking/Stand Up.

        Originally posted by DaisukEasy
        That would require a complete overhaul of the current striking system.

        If your idea was implemented right now, you'd be back here tomorrow, complaining about combo spammers, cheesy guardbreaks, being forced into the RPS head-movement and matches not going longer than R1 1:30 etc..



        Nice cop-out. I was actually completely genuine. Ironically, you now come across as a bad faith actor.


        1) That's Rozenstruik
        2) He slept Arlovski that way:

        Ngannou definitely "armored" through. You can even see his head snap.

        But right, I'm the one arguing in bad faith.. lol
        That’s called countering. Not power armor.
        ...precision beats power and timing beats speed... and realism beats meta.

        Comment

        • Stealthhh
          Pro
          • Nov 2017
          • 516

          #49
          Re: Let's talk about the Striking/Stand Up.

          Originally posted by DaisukEasy
          That would require a complete overhaul of the current striking system.

          If your idea was implemented right now, you'd be back here tomorrow, complaining about combo spammers, cheesy guardbreaks, being forced into the RPS head-movement and matches not going longer than R1 1:30 etc..
          Fluid striking was in the UFC 3 beta, there was no slow down at all. So why would it be a complete overhaul if it was already in the game? They have a lot of defensive options to work with, so this wouldn't be a problem. If anything an option to disable this would be nice at least offline, and no I wouldn't.

          Comment

          • tomitomitomi
            Pro
            • Mar 2018
            • 987

            #50
            Re: Let's talk about the Striking/Stand Up.

            One issue I've always had with these realism standards is that people always use the highest levels of MMA as the benchmark for what the game should be. They'll use Anderson Silva as an example of how head movement should work or how they should be able to "maul people like Khabib".

            The issue is that those guys are amazing and most of the players are not. If you read OS or the reddit cesspool subreddit enough you will come across clips where people claim they try to fight defensively and intelligently but then the actual video shows them leaning into hooks and throwing the same naked headkick over and over again. People don't actually understand what makes someone like Wonderboy as elusive as he is. I think blocking will always be prevalent in combat sports games because I'd imagine a quick playtest will show that players will struggle if they have to rely on something other than blocking.

            Should you be able to dominate anyone on the ground simply because you are Khabib or be impossible to hit because you happened to pick Cruz? If so, the best players will be able to exploit that even more and I think it will turn into something gamey quickly.
            ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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            • DaisukEasy
              Pro
              • Jul 2016
              • 577

              #51
              Re: Let's talk about the Striking/Stand Up.

              Originally posted by Counter Punch
              That’s called countering. Not power armor.
              I'm going to assume you just can't follow the conversation, rather than purposefully playing ignorant. Because you've missed the entire point of what I was showing you. So I'll recap for you and hopefully clear things up.


              You: "Show me an instance of super armor"
              Me: *shows gif 1* <i><insert gif="" 1=""></insert></i>
              Ngannou rushes forward throwing wild overhands. As Rozenstruik is moving backwards, he manages to connect on the reckless Ngannou with a left overhand, a lead leg kick and a right hook with no effect. Ngannou literally powers through and then lands his own hook.

              You asked, I delivered, right? Rather than acknowledging the fact that super armor looks exactly like that, you responded with this.
              You: " 'Lewis' was backing up and not throwing committed strikes"

              This stumped me a bit. Because it suggests that you believe that the only reason Ngannou was able to walk through all those strikes, is because Rozenstruik wasn't carrying power in those punches, which is pattently absurd. Not to mention, completely moved the goalpost.

              *insert gif 2*


              It utterly debunks your criticism of the first gif. It clearly shows Rozenstruik knocking Arlovski out cold, while moving backwards throwing a single one of those 'uncommitted strikes'.

              Once you understand this, look at the first gif again. Rozenstruik wasn't throwing lovetaps, he was trying to knock Ngannou out. Ngannou armored through not just one, but two of those punches and a leg kick, before he finally connected. So again, there's your example of super armor.

              Are you going to acknowledge this so we can move on or?




              Originally posted by Stealthhh
              Fluid striking was in the UFC 3 beta, there was no slow down at all. So why would it be a complete overhaul if it was already in the game? They have a lot of defensive options to work with, so this wouldn't be a problem. If anything an option to disable this would be nice at least offline, and no I wouldn't.
              Adding the offline option, sure. But it would turn into a complete disaster on ranked. If you think the volume of strikes in fights are unrealistic now.. lol

              The way headmovement, footwork, guardbreak and stamina work now would not go well with what you're suggesting, seriously.. Just think about what online would look like for one minute..



              Last edited by DaisukEasy; 07-25-2020, 04:55 AM.

              Comment

              • HereticFighter
                Rookie
                • May 2018
                • 421

                #52
                Re: Let's talk about the Striking/Stand Up.

                It’s interesting that in Martialminds video he talks about how clunky the beta feels and how many dropped inputs he had like it’s new to ufc4. That’s been my experience with 3 since day one.

                Inconsistent is what I would use to describe every aspect of the standup. If they had just fixed the horrible collision detection and some of the glitches it would have helped but I noticed many of the same bull**** problems from 3 in the beta.

                Sometimes if you throw knee while the opponent throws overhand the knee glitches up to the face but the very next time it hits their body and does nothing and you get starched by the overhand. Sometimes uppercuts in the startup frame of an overhand does nothing next time the opponent is out cold. NOTHING works constantly. Add to that lag and auto aim and its a **** show. lunges felt better, and they seem to have adjusted the range on some stupid combinations but that barely made a difference to the overall feeling of the game, which is like trying to fight underwater.

                We need physics. Acceleration curves and real impact. No more Really Poor Movement.

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