Ideas to curtail pressure

[RetractedMonkey]

Ideas to curtail pressure

I recently joined the UFC 4 discord. When you go to the suggestions area of the discord, it's almost comical because I'd say, without being hyperbolic or exaggerating, somewhere around ~70% of the suggestions almost entirely have to do with stamina/volume/output being completely unbalanced. With many of those posts beings thumbed up and "100" emoji'd

This guy is off his rocker lmfao Thanks for the three dedicated posts toward me after saying you’ve blocked me on like three different occasions. But, I’m glad you found 70% of the people who agree with you like almost all of them aren’t in the same boat and have no idea what a slip straight is.

And you really must have no idea what you’re watching considering I didn’t get ran over. It was a competitive fight that I probably would have won had I not slipped directly into like 15 overhands. But, those things happen in a high tension situation with literally 2000 people watching you play. You wouldn’t know anything about that or how it affects your game though.

Recognize actually is on this board. He’s a top player and his standup was pretty ineffective all things considered. He did most of his damage in the clinch (which has its own huge issues). The rest of the damage was, again, me not reading his overhand counters to my slips.

Even if I did get stomped, like I said, I’m not the best in the world anymore so it would be irrelevant anyway.

As others have said, pressure being the meta is a symptom of tracking, stamina, and power being off in a number of ways. I’m all for making changes to them, but to say that there aren’t good ways to deal with it or that it somehow matters that bad players are bad and don’t possess any fine motor function is false.

By all accounts in the ESFL discord, I’m a nice dude. But people like you think you know better about the mechanics without putting any of the work in and complain about realism without any solid feedback based on game knowledge. Your opinions come from ignorance and you refuse to be told you’re wrong on anything. That’s why you’re insufferable and that’s why I talk to you the way I do.


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[Haz____]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

No, I'm pretty sure you only read like half of what my actual posts say, before skimming through the rest, because you have already had your mind made up.

You are almost categorically misinformed, and out rightly incorrect in your assumptions about me, my opinions, my beliefs, my suggestions, across the board.




Funny how in all those paragraphs you replied with, not one mention at all about how you continuously keep lying about me, and spreading rumors, and false information, misrepresenting my opinions and beliefs.


You are literally having entire arguments with yourself, about things, I've literally never said. It's truly insane.

But people like you think you know better about the mechanics without putting any of the work in and complain about realism without any solid feedback based on game knowledge. Your opinions come from ignorance and you refuse to be told you’re wrong on anything. That’s why you’re insufferable and that’s why I talk to you the way I do.

My opinions come from both years of training in real life, as well as years of playing UFC video games at a dedicated, impassioned, and above average level. I've put an absurd amount of hours into all of the EA UFC games, including UFC 4, and my record across the board is very positive. I read all the forums, watch all the youtube videos, follow all the big players. My knowledge of in game mechanics is way way way above the average player. I win significantly more than I lose, using almost exclusively low tier fighters against champs . I am far from elite, but I am also way above average.

You just have your head up your own ***. You like to make these grandiose statements about how some high level players can deal with pressure(high volume), so mechanically it's balanced , because in a way, what you're doing, is trying to make yourself feel superior, because you put yourself in that said righteous class of players with said skills. It's a psychological, narcissistic thing you're doing to separate, and elevate yourself in your own mind.

In reality, you just refuse, and have an inability to empathize, and see things from any perspective but your own.









You're right though. Slip straight.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

No, I'm pretty sure you only read like half of what my actual posts say, before skimming through the rest, because you have already had your mind made up.



You are almost categorically misinformed, and out rightly incorrect in your assumptions about me, my opinions, my beliefs, my suggestions, across the board.









Funny how in all those paragraphs you replied with, not one mention at all about how you continuously keep lying about me, and spreading rumors, and false information, misrepresenting my opinions and beliefs.

Most of your posts were just rhetoric about your opinions on me with almost no substance, so sorry if I skipped the irrelevant conjecture. As for why I don’t need to address anything else you have to say is because it’s patently obvious to anyone who agrees with me and you find solace with the sim bois who agree with you. No minds being changed about that. Gameplay, I can work with however.

I tend to keep my posts at around 80% gameplay and 20% remarks about the nature of this board and the characters that inhabit it. So apart from things like this message I’m pretty much divorced from the greater meta-analysis of who is lying about what that you’re aiming to initiate. So no, you aren’t going to change my opinion of you. If you want to change my opinion on the gameplay, bring some actual facts and not this idpol “these people agree with me so it must be true” sentiment.

My job on this side of the argument is to present evidence that you can counter pressure and there are many tools to do so. I’ve already done that so your only retort is to claim that it’s too “hard” for low-mid level players to execute. Whatever that means. As if any person isn’t capable of using these tactics.

You don’t need to be a pro to execute a flick of the right stick. What separates the bad from the good is game knowledge. What separates the good from the elite is timing and knowing when to execute what. I admit that not everyone is capable of the latter. I suck at shooters but I still know the basics and can play with the full range of abilities granted to me. I just can’t pull it off against great players, but I know the tactics and am physically capable of using them. So it’s a good thing this game has ranked scaling. Anyone can pull off the moves and against players of around their own division, it should be a fair fight.


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[Haz____]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

As others have said, pressure being the meta is a symptom of tracking, stamina, and power being off in a number of ways. I’m all for making changes to them, but to say that there aren’t good ways to deal with it or that it somehow matters that bad players are bad and don’t possess any fine motor function is false.

"As others have said"

This is literally the exact same things I have been saying the entire time....




Again, please show me an example of me saying "there are no ways to deal with high volume".
See, because this however, is something I have never said....



You are categorically confused, and misinformed.








However, yes. If only a small percentage of the full intended user base of a particular product is able to utilize the product to it's intent, then by definition, the product is flawed.

[Haz____]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

And again, this is where your now admitted, and willing ignorance is showing it's flaws.


By ignoring what my posts are actually saying, and receding to your predecided narrative about me, you have skipped over almost entirely what most of my arguments actually are in the discussion. You literally don't even know what my opinion actually is.




I have never said high volume is unbeatable.

What I say, is that the skill to success rate for the high volume pressure fighter, is disproportionate to the skill to success rate of the low volume technical fighter. High volume "pressure" is inherently lower risk, with exponentially higher reward, where mechanically, the low output technical fighter, has a high risk, for little reward. This has the effect of warping the meta game, and creating a game play experience that is unbalanced, and not reflective of the sport it is trying to emulate.

I'm also saying, that in a vacuum, 120+ strikes a round is extremely unrealistic, and unacceptable.

Of course it can be dealt with. That was never the argument to begin with.


The question, is WHY is high volume/pressure so prevalent and dominating, and what can be done to balance the game in a realistic way.




For me, what I would like to see is significantly lower long term stamina, and slower regenerating short term stamina, much higher power on strikes, even lower block, slower moving strikes(moving and striking IRL is not as simple and easy as this game makes you feel like it is, mechanically, real life fighting is not based around constant moving strikes), intercepting power on the jab, and tweaked tracking on head movement.

It should be more about feinting, pattern setting, mix ups, and setting up openings, than it should be about throwing 3 guarenteed block breaker combos, and a 1-2 headkick for the win.


Also defense in MMA is footwork first, headmovement, parrys, and last line of defense is blocking. The game should reflect his. Every action should have far more dramatic consequences. This would lead to high level, high strategy chess matches, more like what real fighting actually is.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

It should be more about feinting, pattern setting, mix ups, and setting up openings, than it should be about throwing 3 guarenteed block breaker combos, and a 1-2 headkick for the win.


Also defense in MMA is footwork first, headmovement, parrys, and last line of defense is blocking. The game should reflect his. Every action should have far more dramatic consequences. This would lead to high level, high strategy chess matches, more like what real fighting actually is.

You see, even if the game were how you described it, YOU would never take part in the high level chess match because you will never be high level. If you can't be high level in this game, there is zero chance you'd be good in your hypothetical sim dreamland.

This is what I'm saying with you wanting the game to be morphed so you will be able to have these super fun high level matches where you have to feint and make reads on what your opponent is doing. The reality is, that's already happening. You just know so little about the game that you do not know what you're watching. You have no idea what goes into the planning of two high level players "just throwing guaranteed block breakers at each other".

You see the results of what happens to you and other low skill players and you think, "man, if I did that it'd be so easy and so low skill to win, I'll never devolve into that because I am a sim player, there is no value there". You look at a high level fight and think, "man, these fights are all the same, just two dudes throwing block breakers and seeing who drops first". It's hilarious because there are a ton of complex things going on all at once in the minds of those two players. Go watch the breakdown of Suave Jamie and Romero's fight. They both did one. They go in depth on their decision making. There are a lot of these breakdowns that you could actually learn a thing or two from if you really cared. Zyaf has a few as well as the obvious examples of Pryoxis and Martial Mind.

Like, I'm just aghast that anyone would even think that there isn't pattern recognition, trap setting, and deep game knowledge going on at the highest level. I can't stress enough just how disgustingly wrong you are. It's like a guy watching MMA and when they go to the ground he's like, "why they huggin', bro". Because he doesn't know dick all about the ground game.

I mean, people don't even use the 1-2-head kick that much anymore because it's so easy to read and duck counter. Your opinions on how the meta is played is like you never left UFC 3.

Blocking will always be prominent because you cannot physically react the shots in game like you can in real life. So, the block breaking mechanic is actually there to reflect the flimsyness of the guard in MMA. It's the middle ground compromise that a balanced game needs. You don't want to have your block smashed in game, so it's actually not the meta to hold RT and hope. People don't even get their guards broken unless they're rocked anymore. They're using those first lines of defense you noted. Head movement being the main one. High level fights in UFC 3 were about backing up and holding high block. In UFC 4 it is blocking one or two and countering. That's realistic.


I'm okay with you thinking that a fully sim experience would be more fulfilling for you. No issue with that. Everyone has fun in different ways. What I don't abide is your categorical misunderstanding of what is going on and then making flawed opinions off that base.

[Haz____]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

It's like you're only reading what you want to read, and just forming some idea in your head which is entirely separated from what is actually being written. It's completely insane. I don't even know where to start, because you are just completely misrepresenting me on every single level.



OBVIOUSLY high level fights have feints, and mix ups............ (If you could only see the look on my face right now....)



What is being said, is that the high volume "pressure", not only is a false representation of the actual sport, and is objectively highly unrealistic, but it has a disproportionate skill to success ratio, when compared to a low output technical style, which warps the game play experience for the vast majority of the player base.

The argument is that it is inherently unbalanced. Stamina is a major culprit, but there are many factors contributing. This is the discussion.



You are again having arguments with yourself, about me, about things I'm not even talking about.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

If you have to be as skilled as a top player in the game to avoid cheese, something is wrong with the game.


Just saying, ~"Look here, the very best players in the world, who borderline play this game for a living can defend it, so it's all good" isn't a real solution at all.

I don't know how you can say something like this then come back with a "b-b-b-b-but I did not literally say there is no counterplay to pressure! Find me a quote where I said that exact thing! Literally, in a room by myself, laughing out loud. smh.".

[Granbyroll]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

They absolutely are. Look at the progression from the best player in the game: Suave Jamie.

You can track his progress from the start to the now. He used to just stick on you like glue and break your block like a madman. Now that we've all discovered the slip rear hook and pull rear uppercut, you simply cannot rush someone throwing combos unless they are hurt. You will get put down. It doesn't even take that much skill to use these tools. You literally just wait for the third strike and pull uppercut. Or you move forward while throwing the slip hook to counter straight shots.

Pressure boxing is still the meta, but it isn't how it used to be anymore. You actually have to mix up your combos and work the whole body to get a good combo off on a good player.

I'm not the best player in the world anymore, but you can look at me even. I play the opposite of the meta. I use leg kicks and I generally counter strike when I'm not doing that. People like to crowd me because I kick, but if they rush in, they get bodied by the pull uppercut or I intercept with the straight punch (which is another tool that stops people dead in their tracks).

Look at Pryoxis or Romero or Martial Mind. All players that don't conform to the meta and counter strike. They are all successful. The tools are there.

You referenced pryoxis and martial mind. Martial resorted to playing meta against pryoxis at esfl 100. Pryoxis has said many occasions that he hates the meta. Hes complained at length about how bad the block breaking is.

[LarsP]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

By all accounts in the ESFL discord, I’m a nice dude. But people like you think you know better about the mechanics without putting any of the work in and complain about realism without any solid feedback based on game knowledge. Your opinions come from ignorance and you refuse to be told you’re wrong on anything. That’s why you’re insufferable and that’s why I talk to you the way I do.


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This is genuinely one of the funniest things I've read here in a while.

[Zyaf]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

Both Lemur and Haz are right... in their own ways.


Stamina needs tuning. Honestly, if you don't see that, you need to go play Mentalstability or Swiss Libax going full pressure and then come back to me. However, it is not the stamina cost itself, but the stamina regeneration in between rounds that needs to be looked at.


Are there ways to counter pressure? Yes. Do people need to learn these ways to counter pressure? Absolutely. Should there be more? Probably. However, and this is key, do we want to make pressure a nullified strategy? Absolutely not.


I saw an old reddit post back on UFC 3 that applies very much here. If you see something that is consistently beating you, go into ranked and try the same thing. The best way to know how to beat a mechanic is to see yourself beat by it, and then to replicate those tactics and put them into your own game.


Haz -- knowledge of game mechanics =/ skill. It may give an advantage, but it is not a determining factor nor a strong one. You can know all the mechanics in the world, but if you can't make those split second decisions within each fight, the knowledge may as well be useless.


Lemur -- You're losing perspective. Not everyone can be a high level player, and we can't expect everyone to be a high level player. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to play the game that they want to play it.

[ragreynolds]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

I actually think it makes a lot of sense that pressure fighting is the strongest strategy to use in the game. Look at MMA right now, guys like Khabib and Usman are considered to be the best fighters. Both are pressure fighters. Obviously, not every champ is, but for a while now, it has been shown that high-pressure fighting is an extremely effective strategy, and most of the time, those guys employing that strategy, tend to win.

However, the important thing to note here, is that high-pressure fighting is only possible when the fighter employing that strategy either has amazing cardio, or finishes the fight early.

Conor McGregor is a pressure striker. He pushes the pace. However, he relies on getting an early finish in order to be successful. If you last 1 or 2 rounds, he fades, and suddenly he's very beatable. The opposite kind of pressure fighter is a guy like Khabib, who will push the pace for multiple rounds until his opponent fades because they can no longer keep up with him, then he finishes them. But guys with cardio like Khabib, Usman, Colby, Holloway, or whoever else, are rare. They are not the vast majority of fighters. This is where the EA UFC series gets it wrong.

Yes, pressure should be very effective. Just as it is in real life. But that doesn't mean to say that every fighter in the game should be capable of employing such a strategy. As I said, Conor McGregor fights with a high pace, and he goes for the kill. But if you survive, he fades, and you can then have a very good chance of winning. But in the EA UFC games, that is not well-reflected. You can easily spend 3 or 5 rounds pressure fighting with Conor, and you will not fade. Conor's strike output isn't even that high in real life, it's mainly his footwork and positioning that he uses to apply pressure and push the pace. He picks his shots and uses his positioning to force his opponent to react, then when they do, he strikes. But again, this isn't really something that can be replicated in the game due to the way accuracy and power both work.

A guy like Colby Covington has seemingly endless cardio in real life. However, he has next to no power. Doesn't seem to matter how he hits most of his opponents, regardless of what they're doing or what position they are in, his strikes just don't seem to put guys away. Yet in UFC 4, that trade-off isn't apparent. Colby seems to have good power despite the cardio he has. It isn't hard to end a fight by KO when playing as Colby. In fact, I do it most of the time I win a fight playing as him.

The point I'm trying to get to here is that I think the issue here largely lies with fighters in the game not having enough individuality to them. You can employ what is essentially the same strategy with almost any fighter, so long as they have the correct moves assigned for your strategy. The issue isn't that pressure fighting is strong, it's that EVERYONE is capable of pressure fighting. And that rings true for almost everything in the game.

The stamina values that the mid ranked guys have now, are the stats that we should be seeing for guys like Khabib. The average amount of stamina that fighters in this game has, should be lowered severely. I'm talking about probably taking 10 points of stamina off of every fighter, then see how things go. Obviously stamina stats aren't the sole issue. There needs to be more of a tax on blocked strikes, and probably also on strikes that connect. Maybe do that instead of taking 10 points away. Power is also an issue. It's an issue in a lot of ways. People always talk about how one strike power isn't enough, and that's very true in many cases, but that should only be the case with certain fighters. Guys like Ngannou need to have one shot power increased tremendously. But at the same time, they should maybe have the power of their combinations stay the same, or be slightly lowered as a trade off. But what people don't like to talk about, is that some guys are too powerful in game! As I already mentioned, Colby Covington is one of these fighters. Joanna Jedrzejczyk is another. Joanna and Colby should definitely have great stamina, and they should be capable of getting TKOs and KOs just like everyone else, but as the game currently is, both of these fighters are able to get knockouts very easily, just as any other fighter in the game can. They have great cardio, AND the power is there too. Whereas in real life, there is a big trade-off.

Anyway, getting off-topic here a bit, but the point I'm trying to make is that I do think pressure fighting should be effective, probably just as effective as it is right now. My issue is with the fact that pretty much every fighter in the game is capable of implementing a pressure fighting strategy. Yes, the tools are there to deal with pressure if you're a high-level player, but if we were to take away the ability for so many fighters to be able to pressure so easily, then perhaps those tools would suddenly be way more useful for a majority of players.

[johnmangala]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

Weird thing I noticed in esfl.

They always talk about pressure.. pressure this pressure that. They rarely refer to good defense.

Monkey points out like 4 gamers who play defensively. But most of esfl is a pressure heavy.

[Haz____]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

Great post ragreynolds. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and you made some excellent points.

A big problem is that within the EA UFC universe, somehow "Pressure" has become synonymous with "Volume", which as you went into detail discussing, are not the same things at all. This is warping, and confusing the conversation at it's fundamental level.

When(IN UFC 4) every fighter is a volume striker, with very very generous stamina, and a combo/power system to shred your block, and take you out, there is no difference between playing as, or fighting against a Max Holloway, compared to a Conor McgGregor.

I actually made a thread on exactly what you're talking about a little bit ago, and it seemed to be pretty well received at the time.
Is "Pressure" the same as "Volume" ?
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...me-volume.html

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Ideas to curtail pressure

Both Lemur and Haz are right... in their own ways.


Stamina needs tuning. Honestly, if you don't see that, you need to go play Mentalstability or Swiss Libax going full pressure and then come back to me. However, it is not the stamina cost itself, but the stamina regeneration in between rounds that needs to be looked at.


Are there ways to counter pressure? Yes. Do people need to learn these ways to counter pressure? Absolutely. Should there be more? Probably. However, and this is key, do we want to make pressure a nullified strategy? Absolutely not.


I saw an old reddit post back on UFC 3 that applies very much here. If you see something that is consistently beating you, go into ranked and try the same thing. The best way to know how to beat a mechanic is to see yourself beat by it, and then to replicate those tactics and put them into your own game.


Haz -- knowledge of game mechanics =/ skill. It may give an advantage, but it is not a determining factor nor a strong one. You can know all the mechanics in the world, but if you can't make those split second decisions within each fight, the knowledge may as well be useless.


Lemur -- You're losing perspective. Not everyone can be a high level player, and we can't expect everyone to be a high level player. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to play the game that they want to play it.

He’s missing my point and causing other people to think that I’m missing his point.

In my last post I literally said not everyone can be at the top. But this game has an elo system. It puts you against the division you belong in. Anyone in the world within reason can do any of the things I mentioned. What separates people from the elite is knowing when to implement the techniques. But anyone can perform them. And against a player of equal skill, you can effectively counter fight pressure.

I basically live on quick fight and not only do most of them NOT pressure fight, the ones that do are horrible at it.

I’ve played the lower ranked divisions in ranked and they are much the same.

Dudes like Haz are looking at the top players fight and he himself probably doesn’t even run into dudes that fight like that often. Maybe one out of five people I run into actually pressure box in quick fight. And, again, the ones that do just spam hooks.

In essence, he’s arguing about the top tier meta like it has infected the entire community but it hasn’t. Sure, people can try to emulate it, but unless you’re actually running into Suave Jamie, you’re playing a bootleg version of his style that lower skilled players should be equipped to handle.


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