Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

[wombatsportz]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

So it's like this.....YES, lots of people play competitively and online, but LOOOOOOTS do not.

How do I know this? Skynet himself liked our conversation (above) which shows that they are appreciating people like us (and others) who are really digging into the engine they built for us in order to calibrate it nicely.

If must be nice for them to read conversations like this that isn't just bashing the game and calling out all the shortcomings (true or not). OR, have to cater 24/7 to fix or change something just because it is messing up someone's record or online promotion. That's cool and all, I get it, but it's tiring to only hear a small minority dictate what needs addressing, while the masses have to sit and wait for more broad things, like new positions, submissions, or even addressing glaring issues with current fighters. (like correct shorts or something)

Anyway, I digress...

They built a game with the ability to allow for these personal tweaks, which is what we wanted for a long time. So no surprise he enjoyed and acknowledged this thread.

I will be heading down to play shortly and will be updating this thread throughout the day/weekend.

I'm still 100% confident that this game can be an amazing 1p v CPU or CPU v CPU simulator.

Your preliminary findings have already proved the business model, it's just about tweaking some more from here....

...and of course, whatever EA has in store to build off of this foundation.

I agree 100%. Most of the comments that I have seen bashing the game come from an online players perspective. All games have mechanics that can be exploited when human players play against each other, but I think the potential for exploits are particularly worse in a game like this.

I think this game plays really well offline and like you said, it can certainly be a great simulation for offline players that enjoy user vs AI or AI vs AI gameplay. I hope that the information shared in this thread provides helpful info to players looking to improve their offline gameplay experience, as well Skynet and team to continue improving the game.

BTW, how did your gaming session go this past weekend?

[gbmbjj]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

I agree 100%. Most of the comments that I have seen bashing the game come from an online players perspective. All games have mechanics that can be exploited when human players play against each other, but I think the potential for exploits are particularly worse in a game like this.

I think this game plays really well offline and like you said, it can certainly be a great simulation for offline players that enjoy user vs AI or AI vs AI gameplay. I hope that the information shared in this thread provides helpful info to players looking to improve their offline gameplay experience, as well Skynet and team to continue improving the game.

BTW, how did your gaming session go this past weekend?

Played a ton this weekend, both sim and 1p vs CPU.

I took your advice with increasing the strike frequency since I use "Real Clock' I feel like -30 and -20 works; haven't settled on one yet. I kept going back and forth.

As for everything else for the CPU I simply put it on -5.

Obviously I changed nothing for me, Red Corner.

However, when it came to the other game sliders (overall ones) I did notice something that took a while for me to realize.

I couldnt understand why almost alll the fights were ending in those Walk Off KOs (which I LOATHE more than any other shortcoming this game currently has), and it was occurring WAY more than any other time I've played. Like almost every match.

Then I realized, I never changed back your settings which had Damage at 0. If I recall correctly, default damage is at -10. Which would mean each strike is dealing more damage at 0 then what is was originally at -10.

So that needed a tweak which resulted in less of the clean KOs and more drops that could be followed up with GnP for the finish instead. I plan to tinker with the DAMAGE setting even more to see if I can find a sweetspot....honestly, anything to avoid those 1 punch clean KOs. Those should be super rare, and not 90% of finishing a fight. It kinda reminds me of the old THQ games where the head damage would accumulate and ALWAYS ends a similar way; only with that game you could follow up with strikes.

(whoever at EA is reading this, PLEASE LOOK INTO THE POSSIBILITY OF ADDING A FOLLOW UP PUNCH MECAHNIC!)

I think -10 maybe even more, can help this game overall with that walk off KO stuff.

Lastly, I have always had my 1p vs CPU at the following stamina cost:

RED (me) +5
BLUE (cpu) +28 or +30

Even with that drastic difference, equal and realistic amounts of stamina are drained by fights end. (I sometimes even go 0 with mine)

This is a decent summary and enough of a foundation for me to go back in and play some more, and of course anyone else who wants to try these.

To be continued...

[FightMikes]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

This has been one of the best guides I've seen on this game.
I was building one and got through about half the brawl & strikers. But this has so much detail. Really appreciate this. Helped finish building a project I'd been working on for my CAF universe fed.

Quick mention that it is sad that not many appreciate how well this game holds up Offline. I still wish they'd throw the offline people a bone. More gear options, an improved event mode, something. But this is a great start for this cycle

[wombatsportz]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

Played a ton this weekend, both sim and 1p vs CPU.

I took your advice with increasing the strike frequency since I use "Real Clock' I feel like -30 and -20 works; haven't settled on one yet. I kept going back and forth.

As for everything else for the CPU I simply put it on -5.

Obviously I changed nothing for me, Red Corner.

However, when it came to the other game sliders (overall ones) I did notice something that took a while for me to realize.

I couldnt understand why almost alll the fights were ending in those Walk Off KOs (which I LOATHE more than any other shortcoming this game currently has), and it was occurring WAY more than any other time I've played. Like almost every match.

Then I realized, I never changed back your settings which had Damage at 0. If I recall correctly, default damage is at -10. Which would mean each strike is dealing more damage at 0 then what is was originally at -10.

So that needed a tweak which resulted in less of the clean KOs and more drops that could be followed up with GnP for the finish instead. I plan to tinker with the DAMAGE setting even more to see if I can find a sweetspot....honestly, anything to avoid those 1 punch clean KOs. Those should be super rare, and not 90% of finishing a fight. It kinda reminds me of the old THQ games where the head damage would accumulate and ALWAYS ends a similar way; only with that game you could follow up with strikes.

(whoever at EA is reading this, PLEASE LOOK INTO THE POSSIBILITY OF ADDING A FOLLOW UP PUNCH MECAHNIC!)

I think -10 maybe even more, can help this game overall with that walk off KO stuff.

Lastly, I have always had my 1p vs CPU at the following stamina cost:

RED (me) +5
BLUE (cpu) +28 or +30

Even with that drastic difference, equal and realistic amounts of stamina are drained by fights end. (I sometimes even go 0 with mine)

This is a decent summary and enough of a foundation for me to go back in and play some more, and of course anyone else who wants to try these.

To be continued...

Good stuff, man! That is great info about the damage slider. I forgot to mention that in our previous convo, but that is another slider that I played around with for a while. I think the results from this slider also goes back to the clock style that you are using.

It was actually the opposite for me since I decided to go with the accelerated clock for AI vs AI. I initially left it at -10, because like you, I hate to see every fight ending in a a one shot KO. However, with the accelerated clock, I was seeing pretty much every fight going the distance, especially 3 rounders. There would be a KO or TKO occur every once in a while in 5 rounders, but I wanted to see more variation. I eventually got down to 0 and liked what I saw. I've still seen decisions, but there is also still the chance of a KO that can occur in any round.

In my testing, I found that it seems like if damage is set on anything below 0 there aren't hardly ever any 1st round finishes, at least with accelerated clock on. 0 seems to be that sweet spot that I was looking for. The 1st round finish is still rare with it set at 0, but I have seen it happen probably around 5% of the matches that I have simulated.

How has the variation of finishes and decisions been with your testing at -10 on real-time? Do you still some first round finishes? Keep providing feedback, man. I enjoy hearing about your findings!

[wombatsportz]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

This has been one of the best guides I've seen on this game.
I was building one and got through about half the brawl & strikers. But this has so much detail. Really appreciate this. Helped finish building a project I'd been working on for my CAF universe fed.

Quick mention that it is sad that not many appreciate how well this game holds up Offline. I still wish they'd throw the offline people a bone. More gear options, an improved event mode, something. But this is a great start for this cycle

I really appreciate that, man! I'm glad that this info could be useful for you to finish out your CAF universe.

I 100% agree with your second comment. I'm really enjoying the offline gameplay this year. This thread proves that there is interest in more offline customization and features. One of my most wanted features for years has been a "universe" type mode similar to the mode in the WWE games. This mode would allow you book ongoing fights, stat track events and fighters, sign new fighters, crown new champs, see fighters retire, etc. I think a mode like this would work great in the UFC games. Hopefully we get something like that in a future game.

I've heard some rumors about them adding additional color shorts for CAF's in a future update, so I will be looking forward to that. I hope that they also add the ability for CAF's to sport the red and blue taped UFC gloves in regular fight now or event mode. I welcome and appreciate little things like that. I'm all for anything that adds to the immersion of the game!

[SUGATA]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

*Set these sliders the same for the red and blue corners.

Game Style
Clock Speed: Accelerated
Perks: On
Free Combinations: Off
Stamina Recovery: On
Stamina Cost: +28%
Health Recovery: On
Damage: 0%
Transition Speed: +30%
Submission Speed: +15%
Grapple Advantage: Off
Damage Recovery: On
Doctor Stoppages: On
Cut Resistance: +95%
Referee Stand Up Timer: Quick
Instant Getups: Off
Disable Grappling: Off
Fighter HUD: Off
Grapple Advantage HUD: Off
Competitive Stats: Off

AI Behavior
Difficulty: Pro
Standup Frequency: -50%
Grapple Strike Frequency: -10%
Takedown Frequency: -10%
Clinch Frequency: -5%
Submission Frequency: -10%

Optional Gameplay Settings
Weight Class Type: Strict (Open for Champ vs Champ matchups)
Gameplay Tips: Off
Defensive Grapple Assist: Off
Camera Style: Wide
Camera Movement: Cinematic
Rocked Moments: Off

1) Why did you set Grapple advantage OFF? Do you think GA feature is not realistic, why?
2) Instant Getups: OFF. Why? not realistic for appropriate situations?

[gbmbjj]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

1) Why did you set Grapple advantage OFF? Do you think GA feature is not realistic, why?
2) Instant Getups: OFF. Why? not realistic for appropriate situations?

I cannot answer for him, as these are his settings...

But, I would imagine he wanted to strip away settings that alter the fight in any way what so ever?

As for Instant Getups....I have never messed with that one; does that mean if the fight hits the ground the bottom fighter gets a free get up? ...or he simply attempts to get up immediately? (and the top fighter must defend the get up)

Just speculating.

I will say, these settings the OP posted are AWESOME! In fact, whenever I play the computer, I always turn down their Strike Setting to -20 or -30. (even -40 if it's a 5 Round Fight with Real Time)

It makes SUCH a difference and feels and looks so much more realistic.

My opinion of course.

[wombatsportz]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

1) Why did you set Grapple advantage OFF? Do you think GA feature is not realistic, why?
2) Instant Getups: OFF. Why? not realistic for appropriate situations?

gmbjj is spot on! It's not that I think the grapple advantage feature is unrealistic, it's more about keeping the screen clean from all in-game HUDs so that the presentation mimics an actual UFC broadcast. When this feature is on, the grapple advantage HUD is on even during AI vs AI gameplay.

For the instant getups, I believe when this is turned on it allows for an automatic getup when the bottom fighter initiates a getup transition, right? Although it may be appropriate sometimes, I wouldn't want a fighter to be able to get up every time they initiate the getup transition on the bottom. With it set to off, I've still been seeing fighters able to get up from the bottom, but it's not an over abundance amount of getups.

A lot of these settings are up to personal preference too. The settings in my post are just what I have found to be the most realistic to me so far. Feel free to make any adjustments to the sliders and settings to get gameplay that you enjoy!

[The_Waterboy92]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

With the new patch addressing the negative grapple advantage issue, I might start playing with grapple advantage back on. I find it helps with takedowns and fakes a lot better

[wombatsportz]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

With the new patch addressing the negative grapple advantage issue, I might start playing with grapple advantage back on. I find it helps with takedowns and fakes a lot better

That's a good call! I could see that being helpful, especially if you are playing user vs AI.

I briefly looked over some of the patch notes earlier and saw that there was going to be some damage decreases and long-term stamina drain increases. I'm going to be doing some testing after the patch to see if the damage slider and stamina slider need some adjusting.

[wombatsportz]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

I just updated the slider set after testing out the new gameplay patch over the weekend. Below are the changes that were made to the sliders;

Game Style Changes
Stamina cost has been reduced from +28% to +24%
Damage has been increased from 0% to +2%
Transition speed has been increased from +30% to +50%
Submission speed has been increased from +15% to +100%
Cut resistance has been increased from +95% to +98%

AI Behavior Changes
Submission frequency has been reduced from -10% to -30%


The big gameplay changes in this patch were related to decreased body damage and long-term stamina drain increases. As expected, I did reduce the stamina cost slider and increased the damage slider to play appropriately with these gameplay changes. I also increased the cut resistance slider a bit to align with the increased damage. I think I have found the sweet spot for all of these sliders for now.

During my testing, I kind of went down a rabbit hole with the submission sliders. When I was slider testing with Charles Oliveira, I found that he was attempting way too many submission and it was taking quite a bit of attempts for him to submit his opponent. Sometimes he wouldn’t get the sub during the fight even with 8+ sub attempts. This led me to start tinkering with the submission frequency and submission speed sliders. I finally ended up at -30% submission frequency and +100% submission speed. The -30% sub frequency drastically cut down the amount of submissions that are attempted during the fight. If you look at real fight statistics, there are hardly any fights where fighters attempt to submit their opponent more than 3 times. The sub frequency set at -30% has provided a realistic amount of submission attempts.

I know the sub speed set at +100 may sound like it’s way too high, but it has really added variety in the sub game. With my previous slider set, I never saw first round submission in all of my fight simulations, but I am now seeing fighters with high submission ratings get first round submissions against fighters with lower submission ratings. It doesn’t happen all of the time, but these settings have added that possibility. I did a lot of testing with Charles Oliveira (99 submission offense) vs Yancy Medieros (85 submission defense), and Oliveira was able to get a few first round submissions on him. There were other times where he would get it in the 2nd, the 3rd, and a few times where he wouldn’t get it at all. When he would get the sub it was usually within 2 submission attempts. I also did some testing with Oliveira vs Nate Diaz (97 submission defense) and he was never able to submit Diaz during the first round. Most of the fights I simulated between them went the distance, with about 3 Oliveira submission wins mixed in there. There was one fight where Oliveira got the sub in the 2nd, but that only happened once out of about 10 or so simulations. Also, the highest number of submissions attempted was 5 for Oliveira in one of the simulations. I thought this was a huge improvement over the previous submission sliders, where sometimes I would see 4-5 submission attempts in one round.

Keep in mind, these sliders were tested on accelerated clock, so if you are using real-time clock, setting the sub speed to +100 may actually be too high, and could cause too many submission victories. I haven’t actually done this testing on real-time clock, but that is just my initial thought. I would think a good range for this slider on real-time could be between +50% and +65%. Feel free to conduct your own testing and let me know what you find!

[gbmbjj]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

I just updated the slider set after testing out the new gameplay patch over the weekend. Below are the changes that were made to the sliders;

Game Style Changes
Stamina cost has been reduced from +28% to +24%
Damage has been increased from 0% to +2%
Transition speed has been increased from +30% to +50%
Submission speed has been increased from +15% to +100%
Cut resistance has been increased from +95% to +98%

AI Behavior Changes
Submission frequency has been reduced from -10% to -30%


The big gameplay changes in this patch were related to decreased body damage and long-term stamina drain increases. As expected, I did reduce the stamina cost slider and increased the damage slider to play appropriately with these gameplay changes. I also increased the cut resistance slider a bit to align with the increased damage. I think I have found the sweet spot for all of these sliders for now.

During my testing, I kind of went down a rabbit hole with the submission sliders. When I was slider testing with Charles Oliveira, I found that he was attempting way too many submission and it was taking quite a bit of attempts for him to submit his opponent. Sometimes he wouldn’t get the sub during the fight even with 8+ sub attempts. This led me to start tinkering with the submission frequency and submission speed sliders. I finally ended up at -30% submission frequency and +100% submission speed. The -30% sub frequency drastically cut down the amount of submissions that are attempted during the fight. If you look at real fight statistics, there are hardly any fights where fighters attempt to submit their opponent more than 3 times. The sub frequency set at -30% has provided a realistic amount of submission attempts.

I know the sub speed set at +100 may sound like it’s way too high, but it has really added variety in the sub game. With my previous slider set, I never saw first round submission in all of my fight simulations, but I am now seeing fighters with high submission ratings get first round submissions against fighters with lower submission ratings. It doesn’t happen all of the time, but these settings have added that possibility. I did a lot of testing with Charles Oliveira (99 submission offense) vs Yancy Medieros (85 submission defense), and Oliveira was able to get a few first round submissions on him. There were other times where he would get it in the 2nd, the 3rd, and a few times where he wouldn’t get it at all. When he would get the sub it was usually within 2 submission attempts. I also did some testing with Oliveira vs Nate Diaz (97 submission defense) and he was never able to submit Diaz during the first round. Most of the fights I simulated between them went the distance, with about 3 Oliveira submission wins mixed in there. There was one fight where Oliveira got the sub in the 2nd, but that only happened once out of about 10 or so simulations. Also, the highest number of submissions attempted was 5 for Oliveira in one of the simulations. I thought this was a huge improvement over the previous submission sliders, where sometimes I would see 4-5 submission attempts in one round.

Keep in mind, these sliders were tested on accelerated clock, so if you are using real-time clock, setting the sub speed to +100 may actually be too high, and could cause too many submission victories. I haven’t actually done this testing on real-time clock, but that is just my initial thought. I would think a good range for this slider on real-time could be between +50% and +65%. Feel free to conduct your own testing and let me know what you find!

LOVE the lab work here!

I'm a real time clock player so I'll be tinkering all snowy day/eve!

I also like using your stats for 1p vs Cpu.
So I'll be fiddling with that too.

Stay tuned!

Thanks for your work man.


EDIT: I know your focus isn't 1p vs CPU (w/Real Time), but would you mind just throwing up a quick post with your new attributes IF they were set to REAL TIME clock? You can make it CPU v CPU, but just make them according to what you would lower them for if it was RealTime. (I can make my own tweaks to myself as the 1p)

It'll give me a good starting point.

[The_Waterboy92]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

LOVE the lab work here!

I'm a real time clock player so I'll be tinkering all snowy day/eve!

I also like using your stats for 1p vs Cpu.
So I'll be fiddling with that too.

Stay tuned!

Thanks for your work man.


EDIT: I know your focus isn't 1p vs CPU (w/Real Time), but would you mind just throwing up a quick post with your new attributes IF they were set to REAL TIME clock? You can make it CPU v CPU, but just make them according to what you would lower them for if it was RealTime. (I can make my own tweaks to myself as the 1p)

It'll give me a good starting point.

I’ll be keeping an eye on what you do. I’m also tinkering with 1p vs cpu as well. My big change is hard instead of pro but still working it out

[gbmbjj]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

I’ll be keeping an eye on what you do. I’m also tinkering with 1p vs cpu as well. My big change is hard instead of pro but still working it out

Excellent!

In fact, when I get home later, I will post what I've been using based on these tweaks for my 1p v CPU fights.

Great thread!

[wombatsportz]

Re: Wombat's UFC 5 Simulation AI vs AI Sliders and AI Styles

LOVE the lab work here!

I'm a real time clock player so I'll be tinkering all snowy day/eve!

I also like using your stats for 1p vs Cpu.
So I'll be fiddling with that too.

Stay tuned!

Thanks for your work man.


EDIT: I know your focus isn't 1p vs CPU (w/Real Time), but would you mind just throwing up a quick post with your new attributes IF they were set to REAL TIME clock? You can make it CPU v CPU, but just make them according to what you would lower them for if it was RealTime. (I can make my own tweaks to myself as the 1p)

It'll give me a good starting point.

For sure, man! Since you brought this up, I decided to do some testing with real-time clock. I tested the same matchups that I did on my accelerated clock set and was getting comparable results. I'm even seeing realistic strike outputs and fights that go the distance, which were a few things I wasn't seeing much of before when testing on real-time. Below is are the sliders that I'm having solid fights with on real-time.

Game Style
Clock Speed: Real-time
Perks: On
Free Combinations: Off
Stamina Recovery: On
Stamina Cost: +22
Health Recovery: On
Damage: +2%
Transition Speed: +30%
Submission Speed: +90%
Grapple Advantage: Off
Damage Recovery: On
Doctor Stoppages: On
Cut Resistance: +100%
Referee Stand Up Timer: Normal
Instant Getups: Off
Disable Grappling: Off
Fighter HUD: Off
Grapple Advantage HUD: Off
Competitive Stats: Off

AI Behavior
Standup Frequency: -70%
Grapple Strike Frequency: -10%
Takedown Frequency: -20%
Clinch Frequency: -5%
Submission Frequency: -60%

These were tested with AI vs AI gameplay, so I'm sure some sliders will need to be adjusted depending on your play style. I think you mentioned in a previous post that you were getting good gameplay with the standup frequency at -40%. I found -70% to provide a realistic number of strikes per round and overall amount per fight with AI vs AI, but that definitely could vary 1p vs AI depending on how much you engage. If your liking it at -40%, I would just keep it there.

I decreased the takedown frequency and submission frequency a bit on these to adjust to the real-time. I think those are both in a good spot. I didn't reduce the sub speed as much as I was initially thinking. I began the testing at +50%, then moved it up to +65%, but both of those weren't working out. I wasn't seeing many subs at all and it resulted in more sub attempts than I liked to see. I finally ended up at +90%, so I think this slider is better on the higher side. I also decreased the stamina cost slightly, reduced the transition speed, and maxed out the cut resistance slider. Fighters still get cut up pretty good even at +100%. I haven't had a doctor stoppage, but there were a few fights where the doctor came in.

Overall, I'm really liking these real-time sliders and will probably continue playing around with them. Let me know how they play out for you and what adjustments you make for 1p vs AI!