UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

[Sandman42]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

Cheick Kongo has reach advantage over everyone at heavyweight, obviously he can't be counter punched. Oh wait.

And who says Jones can be taken down. The only one with good takedowns who tried was Bader, but he shot from so far out and with poor setup that most guys with strong TDD could shake it off. I want to see how he does against someone who can grind him against the cage like Rashad, or has good trip takedowns from the clinch like Machida.

[DueceDiggla]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

Stop talking about his reach. He doesnt use it like a tall fighter so that doesnt matter. He doesnt use his jab. He's not a technical striker yet. Jones can learn how to be one but his standup is wild. People (including myself) love to see the spinning back kicks and elbows but it leaves him wide open to an accurate striker. When you throw spinning back elbows, reach doesnt ****ing matter.

Jones has fought ONE top striker. ONE. We have no idea if he can take a solid punch. We have no idea what his chin is like.

Here's what we do know. Silva has two Ko's at LHW so its clear his power follows him to LHW. We know that Jones has never faced a legit BBJ black belt and Silva is one. We know Silva has no problem working off of his back going for subs. He did it against Henderson. He did it against Sonnen. He did it against Lutter.

Again just slow down. Jones is great but he just beat his first top 5 fighter. Lets let him win a few more before we anoint him P4P

IMO, Jones throws the spinning elbows and kicks because he feels how much dominate he is over his opponent and doesn't feel any threat in taking a risky move. I don't think he would use those moves if he was in a competitive fight.

Jones fought very smart against Rua by attacking the body. I haven't really seen anyone talk about his gameplan and going for the body everytime Shogun covered up his head. This is why I think Jones would beat Rampage. Rampage never circles and always chooses to just cover up until the combo is over. I also hate the fact that such a talented guy like Jackson is at a gym like Wolfslair. They're not going to come up with a gameplan to beat Jones.

Anderson showed some weakness against Sonnen. His inability to defend himself from GnP and he can be dazed if hit solid. I don't have a problem seeing Jones forgetting the fancy standup against Silva and just going straight for the takedown and viscously pounding him out before Silva can start working off of his back.

Machida, eh... its an interesting fight, but Machida would have to be more aggressive and not settle for countering for the majority of his offense. Thats just not his style to be the aggressor.

I'm not saying he will definitely win, but I think Rashad has the best shot out of the above mentioned guys. He stays really low, he is fast as hell and gets way far out of the way when he is being attacked and he's got that wrestling. When he wants to he can really shoot in for powerful takedowns. From their we have no idea how Jones is on his back. For all we know Jones could have been killing Rashad in practice and this is all irrelevant, but we'll see soon enough.

[Vast]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

Stop talking about his reach. He doesnt use it like a tall fighter so that doesnt matter. He doesnt use his jab. He's not a technical striker yet. Jones can learn how to be one but his standup is wild. People (including myself) love to see the spinning back kicks and elbows but it leaves him wide open to an accurate striker. When you throw spinning back elbows, reach doesnt ****ing matter.

Jones has fought ONE top striker. ONE. We have no idea if he can take a solid punch. We have no idea what his chin is like.

Here's what we do know. Silva has two Ko's at LHW so its clear his power follows him to LHW. We know that Jones has never faced a legit BBJ black belt and Silva is one. We know Silva has no problem working off of his back going for subs. He did it against Henderson. He did it against Sonnen. He did it against Lutter.

Again just slow down. Jones is great but he just beat his first top 5 fighter. Lets let him win a few more before we anoint him P4P

Stop talking about his reach? lol Why? Thats one of his greatest assets. Whatever outrageous reach advantage he has with his hands grows even wider when he starts using his outrageously long legs.
He does throw wild unorthodox strikes but thats not the only strikes he throws. He caught Shogun with tons of Jabs.
I'm not discrediting Silva. I just don't think he can overcome the size advantage Jones has over him. I'd love to see him prove me wrong tho.

[redsrule]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

Stop talking about his reach? lol Why? Thats one of his greatest assets. Whatever outrageous reach advantage he has with his hands grows even wider when he starts using his outrageously long legs.
He does throw wild unorthodox strikes but thats not the only strikes he throws. He caught Shogun with tons of Jabs.
I'm not discrediting Silva. I just don't think he can overcome the size advantage Jones has over him. I'd love to see him prove me wrong tho.

Why couldn't he? He doesn't use his reach as good as he should, but his strikes are nice. Anderson is a world class striker though, he shouldn't have a problem with a 8 inch reach disadvantage. Jones is still untested striking wise, because noone has been able to hit him, and you know Anderson will. People also forget he has a great submission game too.

[aholbert32]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

Stop talking about his reach? lol Why? Thats one of his greatest assets. Whatever outrageous reach advantage he has with his hands grows even wider when he starts using his outrageously long legs.
He does throw wild unorthodox strikes but thats not the only strikes he throws. He caught Shogun with tons of Jabs.
I'm not discrediting Silva. I just don't think he can overcome the size advantage Jones has over him. I'd love to see him prove me wrong tho.

Most strikers use jabs...thats not the point. Jones doesnt use it where its effective or where it makes his reach a factor. The point about those wild throws is everytime he misses one he leaves him self WIDE open for a counter. In a sport where one punch can end a fight, thats not a great idea. Also its not like those unorthdox ebows and kicks are leading to KO's. I've watched every fight he's done in the UFC and the only time he's landed one of those strikes significantly was against Bonner.

I'm done discussing this though. Its a fantasy fight which goes back to my original point. Superfights happen when you defend your belt a few times. Lets let Jones win a couple over Top 5 comp before we crown him King of MMA.

[Phillmattic]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

Since people keep repeating the Machida/Brock thing, I guess I'll keep repeating that it was ridiculous and silly for them to ever be proclaimed unbeatable to begin with.

I would say Jones has much more reason to be hyped than those two ever were. He's got the skills/body/youth all wrapped into one.

Not saying he's gonna dominate for years to come, but when I look at the division and Jones' skills, he at least has semi reason for people to be crowning him. Machida/Brock? no. They never should have been hyped the way they were.

It's ridiculous to proclaim ANY fighter unbeatable.

Jones, like all of the other fighters I just mentioned is coming off such a dominating performance that it's difficult to see any exploitable weaknesses.

Crowning Machida, Brock, and BJ looks silly in hindsight, but now Jones is getting the EXACT same treatment.

The biggest problem when fighters become this overhyped is how easy people turn their backs on them once they are humanized. If Rashad exploits any weakness that Jones has in their fight, even if Rashad loses, people will be quick to jump off of the Jones hype train and then he will become just like every other fighter on the roster.

"Brock has 0 stand up" wasn't an issue until the Carwin fight.

All of Machida's flaws weren't an issue until the first Shogun fight.

Anderson Silva is now is very beatable by a good wrestler since the Chael fight.

Again Jones should be examined on a fight by fight basis. Rashad may be the one to beat Jones or be the guy to exploit something his next opponent is able to capitalize on. Just as Shogun laid out the blueprint for Rampage and Carwin did for Cain.

[TheShizNo1]

Please don't make me dislike Jones, you Bones Jones bandwagon ridding nut hugers.

[jeremym480]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

Please don't make me dislike Jones, you Bones Jones bandwagon ridding nut hugers.

Word.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

It's ridiculous to proclaim ANY fighter unbeatable.

Jones, like all of the other fighters I just mentioned is coming off such a dominating performance that it's difficult to see any exploitable weaknesses.

Crowning Machida, Brock, and BJ looks silly in hindsight, but now Jones is getting the EXACT same treatment.

The biggest problem when fighters become this overhyped is how easy people turn their backs on them once they are humanized. If Rashad exploits any weakness that Jones has in their fight, even if Rashad loses, people will be quick to jump off of the Jones hype train and then he will become just like every other fighter on the roster.

"Brock has 0 stand up" wasn't an issue until the Carwin fight.

All of Machida's flaws weren't an issue until the first Shogun fight.

Anderson Silva is now is very beatable by a good wrestler since the Chael fight.

Again Jones should be examined on a fight by fight basis. Rashad may be the one to beat Jones or be the guy to exploit something his next opponent is able to capitalize on. Just as Shogun laid out the blueprint for Rampage and Carwin did for Cain.

Yes I agree with all of you, but you're missing my point a bit.

I'll just leave it where it is because all points have already been hashed over. Brock's flaws were well documented. Maybe not here, but at other places not everyone was sold on him. That was when I started getting serious about the sport and sure maybe here people were on his jock, but the other places I visited nobody bought it to the extent that he was unbeatable. That's hilarious that people thought he was.

Machida's ascension was before my time in terms of me getting serious about MMA, but yes you're right, in hindsight it was absolutely silly to proclaim him unbeatable as well.

All I'm saying is at least Jones has the combo of things that I could understand why somewhat why people would be so hyped on this kid.

Machida and Brock? No, just no. And I am not talking out of hindsight. Jones? Well at least he gives people some merit to go behind their talk. But obviously in a fight nobody is unbeatable, I think most reasonable people would agree. Now that's not to say I don't think Jones looks like he would be the favorite in any fight in his division, because I believe that to be true as well.

[TheShizNo1]

All I'm saying is at least Jones has the combo of things that I could understand why somewhat why people would be so hyped on this kid.

Machida and Brock? No, just no. And I am not talking out of hindsight. Jones? Well at least he gives people some merit to go behind their talk. But obviously in a fight nobody is unbeatable, I think most reasonable people would agree. Now that's not to say I don't think Jones looks like he would be the favorite in any fight in his division, because I believe that to be true as well.

I didn't want to quote everything. 2 things:

I still think Machida is top 3 easily in that division. Obviously he isn't unbeatable, but I still think in a fight he's easily one of the hardest puzzles to solve.

What other sites do you go to? I need more sites to look at while in class & work.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

I didn't want to quote everything. 2 things:

I still think Machida is top 3 easily in that division. Obviously he isn't unbeatable, but I still think in a fight he's easily one of the hardest puzzles to solve.

What other sites do you go to? I need more sites to look at while in class & work.

I go to sherdog, mmafighting, bloodyelbow

For me: Jones, Evans/Rua, and I'm waiting for Machida to fight Randy and Rampage to fight Hammill to make any other determinations.

[TheShizNo1]

I go to sherdog, mmafighting, bloodyelbow

For me: Jones, Evans/Rua, and I'm waiting for Machida to fight Randy and Rampage to fight Hammill to make any other determinations.

You still hold Evans above Machida? I think Evans is as 1 dimensional as Rampage.

I'd still hold Machida above Rampage although he lost a decision. So maybe I can't hold Evans losing to Machida against you.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

Only reason I do is because he did beat Silva then Rampage, though as unspectacular as he possibly could muster. He still has only lost once in the UFC. That's impressive. And he still seems like he cares about getting better and winning, unlike Rampage.

Machida possibly beat Rampage but it really was a cluster **** all around. And of course he also got knocked out by Rua before that. But if he looks impressive against old Randy I'll re-evaluate.

Rampage on the other hand... he disappoints me on so many levels.

[TheShizNo1]

Only reason I do is because he did beat Silva then Rampage, though as unspectacular as he possibly could muster. He still has only lost once in the UFC. That's impressive. And he still seems like he cares about getting better and winning, unlike Rampage.

Machida possibly beat Rampage but it really was a cluster **** all around. And of course he also got knocked out by Rua before that. But if he looks impressive against old Randy I'll re-evaluate.

Rampage on the other hand... he disappoints me on so many levels.

I agree on Rampage. I no longer count him as a contender, just a guy who can get lucky with a punch.

Evans, although having KO/TKO victories, is the LHW version of Lesnar for me. Two fights he won, he almost easily got KO'd against Rampage and Silva. He's got a glass jaw.

I love Rua and he's my favorite fighter, I say his first fight w/ Machida was more impressive than his KO of Machida.

[aholbert32]

Re: UFC 128: Shogun vs. Jones - 3/19 in NJ

I agree on Rampage. I no longer count him as a contender, just a guy who can get lucky with a punch.

Evans, although having KO/TKO victories, is the LHW version of Lesnar for me. Two fights he won, he almost easily got KO'd against Rampage and Silva. He's got a glass jaw.

I love Rua and he's my favorite fighter, I say his first fight w/ Machida was more impressive than his KO of Machida.

The Rampage stuff kills me. The guy has lost twice since 2005. One of those losses (Griffin) you could argue he won that fight. The guy wins period. Its hard to argue that a guy coming off two straight losses (Machida) should be ranked over a guy who just beat him.