Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

[JiggidyJames]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

All of you are confusing "bad WWE booking" or whatever gripe you have with a total change in philosophy. Like last night's Raw was crap, but they followed basic pro wrestling booking rules. You weren't complaing when they started using scipts ten years ago because the show was good. Now, scripts are the problem?

Cornette is just pushing buttons and a bunch of people that don't know any better nod their head. There are valid criticisms of WWE, but scripts aren't it. Mick Foley and The Rock cut some of the greatest all time promos with Vince Russo and Patrice O'Neal writing for them. But those two were hands on. Ever think that there's a lack of guys getting involved in the process nowadays? Try to think a little a deeper than just parroting an online commentary.

EDIT: There was a John Cena interview recently where he said he just takes the scripts. He doesn't work on them with Gerwitz, doesn't give his input, he just takes them and does the routine. THAT'S a problem.

[vernond]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

All of you are confusing "bad WWE booking" or whatever gripe you have with a total change in philosophy. Like last night's Raw was crap, but they followed basic pro wrestling booking rules. You weren't complaing when they started using scipts ten years ago because the show was good. Now, scripts are the problem?

Cornette is just pushing buttons and a bunch of people that don't know any better nod their head. There are valid criticisms of WWE, but scripts aren't it. Mick Foley and The Rock cut some of the greatest all time promos with Vince Russo and Patrice O'Neal writing for them. But those two were hands on. Ever think that there's a lack of guys getting involved in the process nowadays? Try to think a little a deeper than just parroting an online commentary.

EDIT: There was a John Cena interview recently where he said he just takes the scripts. He doesn't work on them with Gerwitz, doesn't give his input, he just takes them and does the routine. THAT'S a problem.

That's exactly right. There's a reason pretty much everything HBK, Edge, Jericho, and Taker does is usually good. I don't think those guys are taking anything any writers give them and just blindly doing it. I'm just guessing but I think most of the younger guys are too scared and just do what they're told for fear of their jobs. I've liked Miz's two promos on Cena and I'm just speculating here but it seems like he probably had some input on that.

[deaduck]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

Cornette is just pushing buttons and a bunch of people that don't know any better nod their head. There are valid criticisms of WWE, but scripts aren't it .

First off, their's a big line between a "scripted" promo and the rigidity of a "scripted" match. Alot of Cornettes frustration is the out of ring booking, that's not such much my problem as much as how it now overshadows the actual work. And if you'll please note, thats exactly what I was talking about in my post before you made allusion to my parroting skills.

The improv nature of masters in the ring allow them to control the ebb and flow of the crowds ride. If you're constrained to a set pattern inside the match and the crowd that night wants to go elsewhere, you on threat of your job can't...no matter how good it would have been.

And before anybody gets 2nd grade yardtarded about changing the book, I'm talking about the timing of the little details...ending the babyshine, the when and how of the hopes, the undersell shiner, ect.

And please, in the future, consider that maybe just because you disagree with somebody that it doesn't mean that don't know what they're talking about. They just don't agree with you.

[JiggidyJames]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

First off, their's a big line between a "scripted" promo and the rigidity of a "scripted" match. Alot of Cornettes frustration is the out of ring booking, that's not such much my problem as much as how it now overshadows the actual work. And if you'll please note, thats exactly what I was talking about in my post before you made allusion to my parroting skills.

The improv nature of masters in the ring allow them to control the ebb and flow of the crowds ride. If you're constrained to a set pattern inside the match and the crowd that night wants to go elsewhere, you on threat of your job can't...no matter how good it would have been.

And before anybody gets 2nd grade yardtarded about changing the book, I'm talking about the timing of the little details...ending the babyshine, the when and how of the hopes, the undersell shiner, ect.

And please, in the future, consider that maybe just because you disagree with somebody that it doesn't mean that don't know what they're talking about. They just don't agree with you.

I was speaking in general terms about promos only. I would've quoted your post if I wasn't. btw, am I supposed to be impressed with the inside terms? lol I'm not. Where did you learn those? Let me guess...you set up chairs at indy shows.

Alright, now that I got my rocks off...

I don't disagree with you entirely. But WWE has had a style for 40 years that they've stuck to through every era since. The problem isn't scripting matches. The problem in this instance is the talent.

There's a reason the best matches are put on by guys who've worked in more than one place, more than one country (which leads to the real number one problem in WWE, development). They know how to switch it up just enough within the fan's comfort zone. And that's exactly what it is with WWE fans, a comfort zone. Benoit and Finlay had a 20 minute mat wrestling masterpiece while the fans chanted "boring". This isn't Mid-Atlantic, it's not NJPW, it's WWE. You'll only get so much and you've always gotten only so much.

None of that's a problem for WWE fans. We saw the same thing while they were breaking all kinds of records. Have you ever heard a fan in the arena say "wow, that match was great but it would've been better if Jericho sold more during the comeback"? Of course not. Matches can always be better, but if they're good that stuff doesn't matter in the big picture.

And to add to all that, matches aren't put on for the crowd anymore. The TV viewers are who they're wrestling for. That's another change that most old farts can't accept.

Skits overshadowing the matches...that's stupid old man talk. If that offends you, whatever. I really don't know what else to call it. If that was the case, they wouldn't have PPV shows filled with matches. I never got that talking point.

So yeah, I agree with a you little bit but not entirely. We're in the same chapter I guess you could say, but you're a nut.

[deaduck]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

Let me guess...you set up chairs at indy shows.

If you think setting up chairs is some kind of insult, you're talking out of ignorance.

Setting up chairs, ring crew, street team and so on are all part of paying your dues. You prove alot of qualities to the P by doing a good job/not bitching. At any quality promotion with a training school, you don't get on the show untill you know how to set up a show.

So I guess there is no other way to say it, you don't have a clue.

Prepare for a little name dropping but it has a point.

I attended a Ricky Steamboat Dojo at my home promotion a few years back and during the workouts the top turnbuckle sheared off the pole in one corner. This was followed by Mr. Steamboat wanting to teak weld it back on but nobody could hook us up with one. Their is nothing as sublime as watching a legend in his element discussing something so off topic as the technique to a good teak welk. In the end, he and all the boys ended up rigging a chain substitute for the night so we could still have a show. This took awhile so 30 minutes before the doors opened...guess who helped set up chairs?

I think you're quick enough to get it and the point.

Now on to your actual post...

Lots of people, who I do respect, share your opinion on the current state of wrestling. They, of course, have better insight into the actual WHY's than what you attempted to pass off as an educated opinion.

I just so happen to disagree... but clearly you're going to want to make this about assigning labels like "old" and "not a true fan" to your statements. I've got no desire to do that dance with you.

[JiggidyJames]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

If you think setting up chairs is some kind of insult, you're talking out of ignorance.

Setting up chairs, ring crew, street team and so on are all part of paying your dues. You prove alot of qualities to the P by doing a good job/not bitching. At any quality promotion with a training school, you don't get on the show untill you know how to set up a show.

So I guess there is no other way to say it, you don't have a clue.

Prepare for a little name dropping but it has a point.

I attended a Ricky Steamboat Dojo at my home promotion a few years back and during the workouts the top turnbuckle sheared off the pole in one corner. This was followed by Mr. Steamboat wanting to teak weld it back on but nobody could hook us up with one. Their is nothing as sublime as watching a legend in his element discussing something so off topic as the technique to a good teak welk. In the end, he and all the boys ended up rigging a chain substitute for the night so we could still have a show. This took awhile so 30 minutes before the doors opened...guess who helped set up chairs?

I think you're quick enough to get it and the point.

Now on to your actual post...

Lots of people, who I do respect, share your opinion on the current state of wrestling. They, of course, have better insight into the actual WHY's than what you attempted to pass off as an educated opinion.

I just so happen to disagree... but clearly you're going to want to make this about assigning labels like "old" and "not a true fan" to your statements. I've got no desire to do that dance with you.

All you're doing now is attacking me over having an opinion. We don't strongly disagree. You said yourself my opinion is widely believed. I really don't get your deal.

Something tells me you're either someone else, or have been lurking for awhile just waiting. I never said anything about "true fans" in this thread, never typed that phrase here. Other threads where people showed their total lack of common sense playing the smart role, sure. But I've bitten this far.

Of course all that stuff is paying your dues when you're training. I had a picture of you as older, past the point of serious training. Like straight ticket seller status -- old guy who sells tickets to his family type. Or the "I want to give back to tha bizness" loser. But you're only just another indy geek (oh noes, a label), trying to uphold the tradition of this great sport. Way to go. And I really don't care that you paid money to talk fixing turnbuckles with Steamboat. lol at "dojo", it was a seminar.

I'm not an insider, I didn't train enough to really learn past the basics...I don't even know anyone who currently wrestles on one of the three brands. But a mark like me who closely follows it can put two and two together. I see the 4 minute matches in FCW, I see how they're recruiting, I see second-generation wrestlers training with their fathers or Harley Race before signing with WWE. We all see the start and stop pushes, the lack of character development and promo time for new guys...all that's enough for me to figure it out. All those reasons I just mentioned are right here on this board. I've been critical of that system before it became a Wrestling Observer talking point. It wasn't hard to see what the one big variable between now and 11 years ago was. I shouldn't think of these things, shouldn't post my thoughts on a message board because I'm not a worker? That's what your post breaks down to. Please note that you're not special and this wrestling thing isn't that hard to figure out.

Do I come off as an *******? Sure. I am an *******. You're an indy geek throwing a temper tantrum. One word set you off into starting a pissing contest. There was no point to name dropping Steamboat. In fact there's no point to any of this. Our opinions are a little different. Big Deal. With this thin of skin, you're not going to make it in tha bizness.

btw, name drop some more, reveal yourself, insult me...I don't care. I'm done with this pissing contest/arguement about nothing that you started. Good luck.

[deaduck]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

You said yourself my opinion is widely believed.

I said no such thing, I said a FEW people I respected. Your opinion is not remotely "widely believed"

I shouldn't think of these things, shouldn't post my thoughts on a message board because I'm not a worker? That's what your post breaks down to.

Once more I said no such thing, I said and I quote "And please, in the future, consider that maybe just because you disagree with somebody that it doesn't mean that don't know what they're talking about. They just don't agree with you."

There was no point to name dropping Steamboat.

Actually, there really was! I figured you were quick enough to get it without me spelling it out. My bad, but I'm sure most anyone else reading it will understand.

And in case you're confused, MY saying I'm not going to debate wrestling with you, doesn't mean I'm going to let you misquote me or mislead anybody. All your combined "insights" into an artform I care deeply about is to be questioned.

Name calling and labels will not help.

[JiggidyJames]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

Oh no, the indy geek won't debate wrestling with me!

You said "lots of people". And the only reason you brought up Steamboat was to play the "I'm a worker and you're not" card. I see right through you.

This is the greatest trolling effort against me, I will say that.

[deaduck]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

You don't do well at connect the dots do you?

The highly respected and might I add, incredibly cool, Ricky Steamboat helped set up chairs a little indy show.

This is important because you thought saying somebody set up chairs was an insult. I was showing you that EVERYBODY at some time or another sets up chairs. Do you think the magical chair fairies come out out and do it for you if you leave out milk and cookies?

I'm not playing a worker card.

Yes,I am a worker. I'm a proud hard working Indy guy who loves what he does and has learned more about the craft than it seems you will ever understand. You have this impression that because I've been lucky enough to learn from some of the brightest (and am still learning and redefining) that I don't value a fans opinion.

You're wrong. I'm just learning not to value yours.

[JiggidyJames]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

You don't do well at connect the dots do you?

The highly respected and might I add, incredibly cool, Ricky Steamboat helped set up chairs a little indy show.

This is important because you thought saying somebody set up chairs was an insult. I was showing you that EVERYBODY at some time or another sets up chairs. Do you think the magical chair fairies come out out and do it for you if you leave out milk and cookies?

I'm not playing a worker card.

Yes,I am a worker. I'm a proud hard working Indy guy who loves what he does and has learned more about the craft than it seems you will ever understand. You have this impression that because I've been lucky enough to learn from some of the brightest (and am still learning and redefining) that I don't value a fans opinion.

You're wrong. I'm just learning not to value yours.

You must be a train wreck on promos. You should have had someone script that story for you. It sounded like you set up the chairs. He probably knew you were a bunch of goofs and couldn't get it done on time. Steamboat really is the man.

Oh yeah, you're on ignore now.

[Qb]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

Little late to party... Let's please stop. Thank you.

[Darkleaf]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

Anybody have a video of Jim Cornette talking about that scaffold match where he fell and messed up his knee? That was a great interview I laughed my *** off at him telling the story behind that match.

[PantherBeast_OS]

Re: Interesting Read from Jim Cornette

I watched Jim on wrestling in the good old days of NWA and WCW when he was a wrestling manger. He use to be the manger for ric flair back in the 80s. Jim is a great man who has come along way in the wrestling business. I respect him alot. And he is doing a good job in tna right now.:wink: