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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
Off the top of my head...there's vs Sheamus at TLC 09, though you might not count that as 'clean'...
I'd argue that losing cleanly is not the only way to put someone over. If you don't agree with that, then it's just a philosophical difference and I really can't see debating you on this issue.
It's been stated plenty that the top face doesn't go around just losing cleanly all of the time. For some reason people just ignore this or use the 'the business is different now' argument. While things have changed somewhat, it's essentially the same in that there's always one top guy who's booked strongly so that when someone does beat him, cleanly or non cleanly, they are put over.
Cena put Sheamus over. Cena helped put Miz over, even if it wasn't a 'clean' win. Cena put Nexus over. Some (maybe even Edge himself) would argue that Cena helped put Edge over. Quite frankly I don't see the Hogan comparison at all as far as holding guys back. Hogan held the title for 4 years. Cena's longest reign is just over a year.
Quite frankly Super Cena isn't that much different from Hogan 'hulking up' or Austin's stunner sprees. People just use terms like Hogan 'sold it better' to try to rationalize justifying one while condemning the other.Last edited by rangerrick012; 05-26-2011, 10:46 PM.Comment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
That's my bad, I didn't realize you had stated the 83 to 93 thing. And yes I was referring to that match Santino.
Rangerrick I also agree with you that the job of the top face is not to go around losing cleanly to everyone, that would defeat his purpose. The Job of the top face is to prevail over evil in the end, that's why they win all the time and that's why the heel's lose adn when they win it's because they got creative.
Just look at the Honkey Tonk Man's IC run. I'd say the guy either got DQ'd or counted out in half his matches to hold on to that title.
Now let me restate this point yet again. No one here is arguing that Cena is a bad face. No one is arguing he has a bad character. No one is arguing that he doesn't put guys over and has an ego. The only thing I said is the way he utilizes Super Cena just appears to be kind of random and as a result it looks sort of sloppy in the ring. As well as the fact that he seems to take some matches off here and there. THAT'S IT. I have stated several times that I have no problem with the idea of Super Cena it makes total sense for his character, I just wish he'd come up with a more marketable gimmick for it. Also since he's not a rapper anymore and more of a marine type character(I actually don't know what the hell he is) Why won't he drop the jorts? At least switch over to camo shorts or something, anything but jorts.
Last thing, people absolutely can use the argument that the business is different now. The only thing the same is that there are 3 counts and a square ring. Back when Hogan held the belt for 4 years there weren't 3 hour shows every week like smackdown and raw and there wasn't a big ppv show every month. Now it seems like anyone who becomes a top face ends up being world champion over ten times. How many double digit champions were there before the attitude era? I think just Flair. Times have changed dramatically. People started to dictate who was a good guy and who was a bad guy instead of the writers. No one wants pure good and pure evil anymore, everyone wants shades of grey.Comment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
Sheamus fell through a table about half a second after Cena did. In fact, Sheamus probably fell through first, I distinctly remember that match.
That was anything but clean.Too Old To Game Club
Urban Meyer is lol.Comment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
Sheamus fell, but not 'through' the table since it didn't break.
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It was sold as a clean win. It wasn't like Cena came out and called it a fluke. Everyone acknowledged that Sheamus won fair and square.Comment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
Thank you for acknowledging this.
Re: The Super Cena sequence - I'd really say you're splitting hairs when you say Cena's comeback sequences aren't as believable as Hogan's. I really don't get that point at all...I'll just leave it at that.Now let me restate this point yet again. No one here is arguing that Cena is a bad face. No one is arguing he has a bad character. No one is arguing that he doesn't put guys over and has an ego. The only thing I said is the way he utilizes Super Cena just appears to be kind of random and as a result it looks sort of sloppy in the ring. As well as the fact that he seems to take some matches off here and there. THAT'S IT. I have stated several times that I have no problem with the idea of Super Cena it makes total sense for his character, I just wish he'd come up with a more marketable gimmick for it. Also since he's not a rapper anymore and more of a marine type character(I actually don't know what the hell he is) Why won't he drop the jorts? At least switch over to camo shorts or something, anything but jorts.
Compare Super Cena to Rock's comeback sequences, Hogan's Hulking up, Austin's comeback sequences...I don't really think there's that much of a difference TBH, at least not enough to condemn one and say the others were fine.
I know people are going to just think I'm a Cena lover and will defend him at any cost - trust me, I'm not, but I'm not a ***** either. Though I didn't like the way his match with the Miz went at all, I thought it was poor booking for Miz to lose like that, but at the same time I won't go overboard and claim Miz is buried after one result when the guy's coming off of one of the longest title reigns in a while.
And it seems to be marketable enough since he's selling merch out the wazoo, and the dirty little secret that no one around here likes to acknowledge is that it's not just kiddies and women that like Cena, plenty of guys that watch the product but don't necessarily go to shows and do the "Cena sucks" stuff like Cena as well. He's a very likable and marketable guy.
Fair point. But I don't see how your first point relates to your 2nd point. It's kinda hard to argue that people are tired of Cena holding the title when he just went 11 months without holding it. I get your point about people not wanting pure good anymore after the Attitude Era, but at the same time, that's the way the business has been for the majority of its time.Last thing, people absolutely can use the argument that the business is different now. The only thing the same is that there are 3 counts and a square ring. Back when Hogan held the belt for 4 years there weren't 3 hour shows every week like smackdown and raw and there wasn't a big ppv show every month. Now it seems like anyone who becomes a top face ends up being world champion over ten times. How many double digit champions were there before the attitude era? I think just Flair. Times have changed dramatically. People started to dictate who was a good guy and who was a bad guy instead of the writers. No one wants pure good and pure evil anymore, everyone wants shades of grey.
Nowadays some people just don't like the good guys regardless and cheer the bad guys. I don't think WWE should appease to those people, unless it's an extreme situation like you had w/ Orton last year where the reactions were such that they had to turn him face. I honestly don't think the Cena thing is in the same boat.
There's still plenty that cheer for him (and not just women and kids), he's still the biggest seller, and he does his job well. This has been discussed before, but you turn Cena heel, how long does it take before the same folks who are bored w/ him now get bored w/ a heel Cena and still say he sucks? It's too big of a risk at this moment to turn him w/ no other top face in his league (sorry, Orton's not that guy). Maybe 2-3 years from now, but not right now.
Sorry for the long post there was a lot to respond to.
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
That was in reference to the Hogan thing. Just saying Cena doesn't lose clean either. Even if you count TLC that's once in nearly 2 years.Off the top of my head...there's vs Sheamus at TLC 09, though you might not count that as 'clean'...
I'd argue that losing cleanly is not the only way to put someone over. If you don't agree with that, then it's just a philosophical difference and I really can't see debating you on this issue.
That's no longer the job of the top face. This isn't the 80's anymore. The second thing goes against the first here. As I said,this stuff doesn't work anymore after the nWo. For that matter DX and I'd say even Raven/Dreamer. In Hogan's day there was barely anyone that wanted the heels to win,now? A whole lot more. I don't recall "let's go Andre" chants at WM 3. Every time "Cena sucks" and depending where they're at boos can drown out the cheers. Was Hogan ever drowned out back then?Comment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
Hogan lost cleanly to one guy during a ten year span while Cena lost cleanly to five guys since 2008 alone. Its not even close. There are some things that Hogan did better than Cena but making his opponents look good wasn't one of them. While Hogan made a lot of money for his peers, he was despised by many of them as well for his backstage politics and refusing to put anyone over.Comment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
Maybe during the beginning of his run but they had five yearly Saturday Night Main Event's by 1987 and four annual PPV events by 1988 to go along with their basic programming. Its not like he was losing clean or putting anyone over at house shows either, but he was drawing around 10,000 per show.Comment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
SUPER AUSTIN
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Oh no! Austin buried WCW & ECW! Let's all hate on Austin!
I mean...it only took 7 guys from Nexus to beat down Cena. Austin had about 20 guys coming at him and just stuns them all. Just sayin...Last edited by rangerrick012; 05-27-2011, 09:22 PM.Comment
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Originally posted by slickdtc
No context neededComment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
the stone cold character has years of build-up to be that type of character. it makes sense in the canon of stone cold, to borrow literary terms. also, to be fair, austin has taken many an *** whooping for doing things like that time and time again. for every three times he stuns a group of people into oblivion, there is at least one time where he will take a beating from someone else or a group.
also, the pop from the crowd seems to validate the decision to have "super austin". i'm no weighing in one way or another, but the reaction of the crowd the moment austin arrives is incredible. he's not even in the arena, he just pulls up in a truck and they pop for about five solid minutes waiting for him to appear.
the difference between austin and cena is that austin has more years of backstory and has also taken a lot of beatings. his character is more well-rounded and the crowd is more invested. with cena, it feels like his super acts are more frequent with less failings than austin, and no real reason for him to always come out on top.xbox gt - bmorerep87
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
I hear this all the time, but I never understood it. Orton gets much bigger pops than Cena and seems to be the most over guy in the company. Watching Smackdown I was shocked at how big the pops were that he was getting. They even booed Christian at points when they were facing off on the mic (and Christian is pretty over as a face). Unlike Cena, Orton is also universally loved (save: Goh, 55, and others here), so I don't get how he's not that guy when he already seems to be the top face in the company.Comment
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Re: Over the Limit 5/22/11
I wasn't an Austin fan either.
At least not that one. I'm so ECW bias the thing that stoodout to me in that one was RVD being the one to NOT get stunnered. 
Didn't Austin join them later though?
Hence the year low and below average ratings for SD since Orton won!
Though to be fair ratings dropped on Raw too when Cena won but they bounced back,small increase for SD but still below average. Might be able to attritubte the Raw one to people expecting a Savage tribute show. Guess people would rather see Miz and Zack Ryder. WWWYKI!
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