What wrong with wrestling

[Maverick32093209]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

I think you guys are miss understanding what I am saying…

I am not suggesting that the WWE become "real" like the UFC. The UFC is for the most part pure competition. I am suggesting that the WWE works to get the illusion of being "real". For the purpose of building up the 4th wall. So that the WWE can begin to become more original.

Right now its boring because its 100% based on personality and NOTHING to do with the ring…this is ok…except the fact that this fact is now obvious. Unlike the 80s and 90s. Then in the late 90s early 2000 it was made clear that it was ALL about personality and it was fun because it was "real" thus the 4th wall broken. THat was cool because it was new….but at the same time limited in that you can only have a few storyline and types of characters with that set-up.

To allow for new story lines…they need to rebuild the 4th wall by making it seem as if the fighting is real and that the in-ring competion is central.

Wrestling is essentially a reality show…imagine if a reality show had their members wink at you in the middle of an argument and say…we are kidding. It wouldn't work….that is what is happening with WWE.

btw…some of you are so damn sensitive

[BrianM207]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

While I fully understand what your saying, its purely wishful thinking.

The 4th wall your talking about, started crumbling in the Attitude era. You could see over it in the Ruthless Aggression, and now durring the PG Era the wall is gone. In order to "build it back up" as you are suggesting, they would need to stop producing biographic dvds, force all superstars to deactivate any personal social media account(or at least restrict them to a point, and not make any personal appearance that arent in character(which might not be a bad thing).

Again, I see where you are coming from, but it is not the age that we live in. I am a little bit older(in my 30's) so I remember the 80s boom(I was a young lad then)and was enthralled by it. Then saw it dip in the early 90s, only to rejuvenate in the late 90s, dip again, rise again, etc.

Wrestling, like anything, is peaks and valleys. Right now, its at a low point, but it always rises up. Will we ever see the Attitude Era again? 99.9% No. But I KNOW it'll get better.

There is a lot of emerging stars(Wyatt, Shield, Big E, Fandango, Axel, Ziggler, Sandow, Ryback, etc) who WILL carve out a place for themselves in the company/business.

The only downfall at this moment in time, is the lack of competition. TNA is no match for WWE, and ROH isnt close to that level yet. Give it some time, the budding stars will be ready when its time, and all will be right again.

Will it be next week? No. Next year? Probably not. But sometime.

In the meantime, check out NXT or Main Event. A lot of the action on those shows is better than Raw and Smackdown.

[DJ]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

The problem with WWE today is a lot of things, but I'd say you could start with storylines that fall apart after 2-3 weeks and that all of the championships are pretty meaningless at this point.

Both are fixable, but with the current regime, I don't see much changing because Vince, Triple H and Strphanie aren't going anywhere.

[SmashMan]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

I think you guys are miss understanding what I am saying…

I must have been confused by this in your first post:
"There is a solution…and his name is Brock Lesnar. They should invent a new match type called Shoot…that is pretty much a real fight. Make a Shoot Champ…ala Brock Lesnar. Have Brock become the World Champ. This will send the message that the world champ is actually the toughest guy. Then make the Shoot Championship a precursor to the World title…."

Your suggestion of building the fourth wall back up is ruined by the fact that they're now, in 2013, very open about wrestling being a predetermined performance. You're tuning in for the spectacle, not a legitimate athletic contest; and to sell an illusion of being real, they would have to present it as such - at a very real risk of appearing out of touch with the modern world.

btw…some of you are so damn sensitive

LOL. That's where this is going because people disagreed with you?

[victorkingchamp]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

I actually think the in-ring action is as good as it's ever been in the WWE. I took my kid nephew to the Money in the Bank ppv this year and I was amazed by the athletic ability of some of the new guys.

During the Hogan era wrestlers only did like 5 moves, but they had larger than life personas. It was basically a live action cartoon show.

The attitude era was all about outrageous storylines. Remember the elaborate skits they used to shoot?? Stonecold and Vince in the hospital, The APA, Mark Henry and Mae young? That was all one big soap opera.

I think nostalgia is the issue here. Our standards are based on our experiences. For example my 7 year old nephew only knows the Cena era, so 20 years from now this will be his golden era.

[Maverick32093209]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

I think the in ring talent is OK…the personality and stories are horrible. I think they suck because we all realize how it is NOT who they are. This is made worse when they try to "pretend" to be themselves. It just becomes one big crap sandwich.

I think they need to start clean again. They can NEVER have an attitude era because of this. By doing Shooto style matches for a small stretch…with good story lines that hopefully more realistically blur reality it will make the audience go for a second "wait…some of this might actually be real".

By making the audience not try so hard to suspend their disbelief and makes everything more powerful. This happens in other media and we call it grittier…that is why in the Dark Knight we did not see a Danny DeVito Penguin….it was compelling because we could say…"wait this could really happen" this allowed for the more comic plot of Bane to seem more plausible.

I think the lack of competent is KILLING the WWE for sure…and the recycled stories are also killing it…but TNA does the same crap…both are stuck because the 4th wall is down.

btw…peeps are sensitive to me not because they disagree..but how some of you are disagreeing so relax homie

[Maverick32093209]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

Seriously though…you guys need to check out Shoot fighting…there are a bunch of current in ring performers who would do quite well in this style (Punk, Taker and Jericho come to mind). It is just as entertaining if not more than the current style.

I am not saying the entire program be reduced to this either…just a few key matches….btw…peeps use to think the lucha libre style wouldn't work…now it is incorporated into a lot of performers moves.

Bottom line…WWE programming is repetitive and recycled at this point…with no originality…At this point…any change would be welcomed…or maybe I just don't appreciate it anymore

[Hooe]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

I don't know where you're getting that the guys today are all playing through-and-through fake characters. The only true characters in today's WWE are The Undertaker, Kane, and The Wyatts. Anyone else with any significant airtime and mic time is just that person with their dominant personality traits amplified. For example, according to his autobiography, the character of "The Rock" is essentially just Dwayne Johnson sans filter and/or political correctness. Most of the characters in WWE today have some basis in reality already.

Looking at the Wikipedia pages for shoot fighting and shoot (I have no experience watching either), my strong impression is that this style exclusively (or even as one dominant component of a multi-faceted show) won't work with the WWE audience because again it's not what they pay to see; shoot fighting is still a legitimate unscripted athletic contest more akin to Greco-Roman wrestling or tae-kwon-do. Professional wrestling is basically modern-day Shakespearean theater; it's a live scripted continuous story with some basis in reality, with feats of sport and spectacle mixed in. This is what people pay to see; you wouldn't get CM Punk's top-rope tribute-to-Randy-Savage elbow drop, Shawn Michaels' tuning up the band for Sweet Chin Music, Ryback marching around the ring with an opponent on his shoulders, Big Show's showstopper chokeslam, or anything like that in a legitimate athletic contest or something attempting to closely simulate an athletic contest. These acts would all be patently ridiculous in an MMA ring.

Lucha libre isn't a good comparison, either, because lucha libre is a scripted contest just like pro wrestling (and in fact _is_ professional wrestling), but with more emphasis on high pace, chain wrestling, and aerial maneuvers / dives. Lucha libre still isn't a legitimate athletic contest, it's spectacle. Again, part of pro wrestling and what makes it unique in any style is the spectacle of it all; the wrestlers are putting on a performance, not having a legitimate sporting contest.

To give you one more idea on the whole spectacle idea I keep going back to, the biggest draws to me when I first started watching WWE in the 1990s - and who I consider the standard-bearers against who others are measured (for me personally) - were Shawn Michaels and The Undertaker. Both performers - very different performers - but neither were/are legitimate fighters.

As to the fourth wall being down, it's never going back up without removing the internet wrestling community completely from the equation, which won't happen. Other posters have already touched on this.

It sounds more like you're looking for something different than what professional wrestling has to offer. This is fine, but I don't think it's reasonable to want pro wrestling to change to align with a more "legitimate" set of interests. Pro wrestling hasn't been "legitimate" since the 1930s. It will continue to be the scripted over-the-top affair that it is, because it always has been. Incorporating some components of a more legitimate style could happen with specific competitors (arguably already has in past and present; CM Punk, Steve Blackman, Ken Shamrock, Kurt Angle, Dean Malenko, Jack Swagger, Brock Lesnar, and a few others come to mind), but it won't become prominent in WWE where larger grapplers have and most likely will always rule. Particularly in this era of little competition, WWE isn't going to change unless it is in its immediate and obvious interests to do so.

[Colts18]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

And also a LOT of our attitudes about wrestling are from what we knew wrestling to be when we were kids. So of course it won't match up. Even if wrestling was garbage when we were little, we would still romanticize about it because that is what people do.

Just like kids now will romanticize about this period in 20 years.

"Remember the Kofi Kingston? He was one of the best ever."

[Steven547]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

And also a LOT of our attitudes about wrestling are from what we knew wrestling to be when we were kids. So of course it won't match up. Even if wrestling was garbage when we were little, we would still romanticize about it because that is what people do.

Just like kids now will romanticize about this period in 20 years.

"Remember the Kofi Kingston? He was one of the best ever."

This is a huge part of it. I started watching wrestling in the late 70's. I was privileged to see the stars such as Chris Adams, the Von Erichs, Bruiser Brody, Magnum TA, Wahoo McDaniel, Dusty Rhodes, the Freebirds....etc.

The problem nowadays, is there is so much emphasis on the mic that they take away time from the wrestling aspect. When they interviewed guys back in the 80's, those interviews were pretty much "promo" packages wrapped up in 2-3 min segments. That was it, then they wrestled. Not this "John Cena rants for 20 mins in the ring about how good / bad he is or how he's going to rise up and defeat anyone..." yadda yadda yadda. 20-30 minutes gone on just talking. The feuds are watered down by all this talking.

Orton complaining about being the face of wrestling? Who cares. Prove it by WRESTLING. Cena upset that people don't like him? Change it by WRESTLING and performing more than 5 moves. What we have now is a cartoon reality WWE show.

Another issue is the lack of "selling" by the wrestlers. Yes, Hogan got beat up and would comeback and win. But he would STAY hurt for awhile in the match with more / less a gradual comeback. Cena? He just jumps right back up like nothing happened. Wrestling is fake, yes, but we as a "universe" still want the "realism". We want a world we can "live in" and believe in some way.

Anyone remember what the REAL Great American Bash event was like? It was a month long series of cards about every other day in July, held throughout the nation. Titles, feuds, the whole package. No flashy rings or promos, just pure feud wrestling. It was exciting because the titles changed hands unexpectedly...feuds were fierce and exciting, and the matches were great.

Wrestling needs to get back to the "realism". We know it's fake, we know movies are fake, but we still go. Give us a world where we are on the edge of our seats again...waiting for the outcome because we have no idea who will win or what will happen. Now, it's HOW wrestlers like Cena will win, not IF they will win.

[jvalverde88]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

Shoot fighting and Pro Wrestling do not go well together at all. New Japan tried that (Inokism) and it hurt its business so bad that its founder Antonio Inoki sold his share of the company.

[Maverick32093209]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

This is a huge part of it. I started watching wrestling in the late 70's. I was privileged to see the stars such as Chris Adams, the Von Erichs, Bruiser Brody, Magnum TA, Wahoo McDaniel, Dusty Rhodes, the Freebirds....etc.

The problem nowadays, is there is so much emphasis on the mic that they take away time from the wrestling aspect. When they interviewed guys back in the 80's, those interviews were pretty much "promo" packages wrapped up in 2-3 min segments. That was it, then they wrestled. Not this "John Cena rants for 20 mins in the ring about how good / bad he is or how he's going to rise up and defeat anyone..." yadda yadda yadda. 20-30 minutes gone on just talking. The feuds are watered down by all this talking.

Orton complaining about being the face of wrestling? Who cares. Prove it by WRESTLING. Cena upset that people don't like him? Change it by WRESTLING and performing more than 5 moves. What we have now is a cartoon reality WWE show.

Another issue is the lack of "selling" by the wrestlers. Yes, Hogan got beat up and would comeback and win. But he would STAY hurt for awhile in the match with more / less a gradual comeback. Cena? He just jumps right back up like nothing happened. Wrestling is fake, yes, but we as a "universe" still want the "realism". We want a world we can "live in" and believe in some way.

Anyone remember what the REAL Great American Bash event was like? It was a month long series of cards about every other day in July, held throughout the nation. Titles, feuds, the whole package. No flashy rings or promos, just pure feud wrestling. It was exciting because the titles changed hands unexpectedly...feuds were fierce and exciting, and the matches were great.

Wrestling needs to get back to the "realism". We know it's fake, we know movies are fake, but we still go. Give us a world where we are on the edge of our seats again...waiting for the outcome because we have no idea who will win or what will happen. Now, it's HOW wrestlers like Cena will win, not IF they will win.

I agree 100%. Also…does anyone really think todays wrestling compares to any other era. During the Monday night Wars…it was clear that it was the best gen ever…even for those like me who loved the days of the Von Erichs and Nick Bonkwinkles

[Maverick32093209]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

Shoot fighting and Pro Wrestling do not go well together at all. New Japan tried that (Inokism) and it hurt its business so bad that its founder Antonio Inoki sold his share of the company.

Bad example….that is like saying MMA doesn't work cuz PRIDE failed.

[Majingir]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

The problem is that WWE is insanely concerned about their public image. They're so desperate to come off as a good,honest,hardworking company in the publics eye, it's just sad. It's like they need the approval of the media in order to feel good about themselves.

And the product itself has taken a huge hit. In history we've seen things like:
Great storylines,great wrestlers(ruthless aggression era)
Great storylines,bad wrestlers(attitude era(at least I believe that))
Bad storylines,bad wrestlers(new generation era)
Bad storylines,great wrestlers(today)

The talent is there, WWE is just horrible at doing things with them. Next to no storylines, matches mean nothing, 80% of the show is just fillers, superstars don't have much(if any) gimmicks and the worst part is...WWE KNOWS they're not good now but still act like nothing they can do. They bash their own product at times but do nothing to fix it.

That's the problem when the writers either know nothing about wrestling and/or are just doing the minimal amount to not get fired.

I've been defending WWE for several years now,saying that WWE was just going through a transition period to set themselves back up for a big era, but now it really does seem like they just don't know what to do in terms of product on TV.

I'll still watch (sadly no matter what most likely), but I'm really just thinking of doing something I always laughed at people who did it(watching old episodes of Raw/SD from like 97-04).

[Colts18]

Re: What wrong with wrestling

Everyone needs to subscribe to MLW Podcast and listen to what COurt Bauer (former writer) has to say about worked at WWE. A lot of the times it isn't the writers fault. It is people above the writers that have these illusions as to what will work. A lot of inside info there.