Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

[jello1717]

Less than 2 minutes left in the game, I’m up 14 (thankfully) and I call a dime cover 4 match play (I believe quarters, but it could’ve been palms). The 2 flankers runs streaks while the slots run shorter routes.

My CB on the left (deep zone responsibility) runs stride for stride with the streak for 15 yards, and then turns around (leaving his guy wide open and uncovered) to run to the underneath route (looks like it might’ve been an out, but the route was interrupted by running into a defender). The guy he’s running to is already completely covered by my nickel or dime back. So he isn’t even leaving his man to cover an open receiver as the guy he leaves for is smothered by another defender.

Is there anything I can do to prevent this behavior? I know I can’t use coverage adjustments as they’ll cancel out the match overage. Was it a bad play call? I thought maybe my user controlled guy (a LB) was maybe out of position, but even if he was (I don’t think so) it didn’t leave some receiver open to compel my CB to abandon his guy to cover the one I was supposed to.

https://youtu.be/DBRGLVMDHcU?si=sP7dhuyaLoO8WsQ7

[Feros Ferio 7]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

Less than 2 minutes left in the game, I’m up 14 (thankfully) and I call a dime cover 4 match play (I believe quarters, but it could’ve been palms). The 2 flankers runs streaks while the slots run shorter routes.

My CB on the left (deep zone responsibility) runs stride for stride with the streak for 15 yards, and then turns around (leaving his guy wide open and uncovered) to run to the underneath route (looks like it might’ve been an out, but the route was interrupted by running into a defender). The guy he’s running to is already completely covered by my nickel or dime back. So he isn’t even leaving his man to cover an open receiver as the guy he leaves for is smothered by another defender.

Is there anything I can do to prevent this behavior? I know I can’t use coverage adjustments as they’ll cancel out the match overage. Was it a bad play call? I thought maybe my user controlled guy (a LB) was maybe out of position, but even if he was (I don’t think so) it didn’t leave some receiver open to compel my CB to abandon his guy to cover the one I was supposed to.

https://youtu.be/DBRGLVMDHcU?si=sP7dhuyaLoO8WsQ7

Not exactly sure as what he was thinking but as simple to me as I'd say he was switching with the hook while passing the deep route to the next deep coverage guy and with the WR hitting the underneath defender it created a broken coverage.

My advice is as usual in late game situations is to play Cover 2 Man. Even if he stayed on the deep route you've essentially created a deep one on one route for the offense and they should hope for that this late in a game with that kind of defecit.

There are route combinations that will affect how cover 4 and cover 3 work so they aren't full proof coverages.


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[canes21]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

Are you sure this wasn't Palms?

[pietasterp]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

Looks like the right outcome to me - you love to see it!

In all seriousness, I'll let the defensive coordinators in this forum weigh in, but my understanding of Cover 4 Quarters is that the CB on the #1 receiver should have carried that route deep and not passed it off (MOD).

I think the Match rules for Cover 4 coverages break under varying idiosyncratic situations (as noted in the other defensive thread by Hooe), but from what I've read here, only Cover 3 Match plays stay consistently on their match rules under a broad variety of offensive sets.

[jello1717]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

Are you sure this wasn't Palms?

I’m not, but it’s my understanding that in general, you want quarters vs 2x2 and palms vs 3x1, so after seeing that formation I would normally call quarters.

Is the video expected behavior if it was palms rather than quarters?

[canes21]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

Wouldn't say it is expected behavior, but I'd at least have a better idea of what may have happened. If it was quarters, it'd be more confusing as to what broke. If it was palms, it would at least "make sense" that there was logic making him break on the underneath flat route and it would show something is triggering incorrectly.

[lchronister]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

I don't think the No. 2 WR is running and out and then runs into the slot CB. I think he's running an in-and-up (or whatever the actual/official term is). I don't remember the Quarters or Palms rules exactly, but I wonder if that route breaks the particular match coverage you called.

The outside CB on that side seems to come back toward No. 2 as soon as the WR cuts up, leaving the S on that side to cover the No. 1 receiver on the streak/go route. But by that point, the No. 1 WR is so deep that the S can't get there in time.

Again, not sure if that follows the exact match rules for either Quarters or Palms, but it might explain things, and show that double moves may break match coverage.

[pietasterp]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

I might be getting out of my depth here, but whether it was Quarters or Palms, the CB on that #1 receiver should carry their guy deep Man-to-Man on a deep route by that WR. He ought to be either MOD or reading 1-to-2 in either coverage (?)

[PowerofRed25]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

If this was Cover 4 Palms, then this is technically the way it is supposed to work, but it isn't implemented well. In Palms, the #1 CB and the Safety are combo reading the #2 (Slot) WR. If the #2 WR goes to the flat, the CB will pass the #1 WR to the Safety and pick up the Slot WR. If the #2 WR goes vertical, the #1 CB will stick with the #1 WR and the Nickel and Safety will essentially split the difference on #2 and any crossers.

That is exactly what happened on this play; however, the problem is that the "flat" is considered anywhere from the LOS to 10 yards and the game does not differentiate vertical stems on routes. This looks like it was an 8 to 10 yard out route and so as soon as the #2 WR broke, the #1 CB jumped that and passed the #1 WR to the FS because the programming says "if #2 goes flat, #1 CB takes him."

In real life, everyone would consider this #2 WR to be "vertical" off the line of scrimmage so immediately #1 CB is on #1 WR, Nickel and FS combo the #2 WR. The game makes no effort to differentiate WR releases, so it can only react once a receiver acts. Which is obviously a problem in a situation like this replay where the #1 WR is already 20 yards down the field and well past the safety by the time the flat read triggers.

In game, I tend to only run Palms vs 3x1 and instead use a Cover 6 or Cover 9 with the Quarter-Quarter side of the coverage to the field and Half to the boundary vs 2x2 formations like in this video. It isn't realistic, C4 Palms is a fantastic 2x2 coverage in real life, but it just doesn't work as expected consistently in the game unless you're willing to manually control the FS.

[Orange Krush]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

This is cover 4 palms and it looks like a cover 2 shell to me. The corner and safety are reading the release of WR2, if he runs out then the coverage plays like cover 2 with the corner taking the out route and the safety taking the deep route. Because WR2 gets collisioned by the apex his break gets delayed, causing the read the be delayed. As soon as he breaks out the corner leaves his man and the safety tries to take the deep route but it’s too late and he’s out of position.

[sherrane]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

I get burnt in nearly every game in Deep Zone Coverage when I don't direct my DBs to give cushion (Triangle or Y, LS Up). But that did not look like a Cover 4. Even if it was Cover 2, it looked like the CB and FS switched their assignment when the FS was not in position to do so. The CB appeared to start looking back toward the QB before he abandoned the WR coverage, so he blew his coverage if he was supposed to protect a deep zone.


Regardless of the defensive call, the FS did not get the depth he should have if he had deep responsibility. Cover 2 deep responsibility demands the FS and SS stay deeper than the deepest receiver on their half of the field. The FS appeared as if he was playing the slot receiver instead of respecting his deep zone assignment. That is often the way my deep safeties play when I don't instruct them to give cushion. Word of warning, you will likely get lit up underneath if you always give cushion so pick your spots.

[jello1717]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

I assumed it was cover 4 quarters since I tend to play quarters vs 2x2 and palms vs 3x1, but from the comments it looks like I definitely erroneously called Palms instead. It was also definitely a cover 2 shell as I usually use cover 2 shells to disguise my cover 4s.

Did my cover 2 shell help contribute to this blown coverage? Should I not use shells? I’ve found that using shells helps a LOT with my coverage as they tend to confuse the QB for a bit, forcing him to hold the ball too long so my 4 rushers can get pressure.

Am I understanding it correctly, that if this would’ve been quarters instead of palms, then the CB wouldn’t have left WR#1 and wouldn’t have been burned?

If the slot hadn’t run into my nickel, do you think the FS would’ve gotten to WR1 in time? Did this particular play just have bad luck with the delayed out route, or would this result be pretty common for a streak + out?

I know in my CPB I have plenty of plays where on one or even both sides of the field WR#1 runs a streak while the slot does an out, so it sounds like I need to be extra careful not to use palms if it’s 2x2.

Also completely unrelated, but to show off my coverage reading skillz, that route combo has resulted in me throwing more interceptions than any other combo in the game. Every interception on that combo comes from me thinking the CB is following the streak and I’ve got an easy completion on the out, only to have the CB sit down on the out route and just patiently waiting while I throw the ball right to him….. I’m so bad that I’ve basically just abandoned that read as it’s clear I’ll never get it right.

[UtahUtes32]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

Less than 2 minutes left in the game, I’m up 14 (thankfully) and I call a dime cover 4 match play (I believe quarters, but it could’ve been palms). The 2 flankers runs streaks while the slots run shorter routes.

My CB on the left (deep zone responsibility) runs stride for stride with the streak for 15 yards, and then turns around (leaving his guy wide open and uncovered) to run to the underneath route (looks like it might’ve been an out, but the route was interrupted by running into a defender). The guy he’s running to is already completely covered by my nickel or dime back. So he isn’t even leaving his man to cover an open receiver as the guy he leaves for is smothered by another defender.

Is there anything I can do to prevent this behavior? I know I can’t use coverage adjustments as they’ll cancel out the match overage. Was it a bad play call? I thought maybe my user controlled guy (a LB) was maybe out of position, but even if he was (I don’t think so) it didn’t leave some receiver open to compel my CB to abandon his guy to cover the one I was supposed to.

https://youtu.be/DBRGLVMDHcU?si=sP7dhuyaLoO8WsQ7

That looks like you called cover 4 palms, did you?

[UtahUtes32]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

....but from the comments it looks like I definitely erroneously called Palms instead.....

....Did my cover 2 shell help contribute to this blown coverage? ....

First, while I think that is definitely Palms, it didn't play 100% as it should. My guess is it's because you used a cover 2 shell?


The Outside CB's first read in Palms is the #2 receiver (slot here). If he runs a shallow to the OUTSIDE, then he passes #1 ("flanker") to the safety for deep responsibility.


The whole think looks weird, and I'm guessing it's caused by using a pre-snap shell (cov2?)

[Orange Krush]

Re: Is there a way to prevent my guys from completely blowing a coverage like this?

I assumed it was cover 4 quarters since I tend to play quarters vs 2x2 and palms vs 3x1, but from the comments it looks like I definitely erroneously called Palms instead. It was also definitely a cover 2 shell as I usually use cover 2 shells to disguise my cover 4s.

Did my cover 2 shell help contribute to this blown coverage? Should I not use shells? I’ve found that using shells helps a LOT with my coverage as they tend to confuse the QB for a bit, forcing him to hold the ball too long so my 4 rushers can get pressure.

Am I understanding it correctly, that if this would’ve been quarters instead of palms, then the CB wouldn’t have left WR#1 and wouldn’t have been burned?

If the slot hadn’t run into my nickel, do you think the FS would’ve gotten to WR1 in time? Did this particular play just have bad luck with the delayed out route, or would this result be pretty common for a streak + out?

I know in my CPB I have plenty of plays where on one or even both sides of the field WR#1 runs a streak while the slot does an out, so it sounds like I need to be extra careful not to use palms if it’s 2x2.

Also completely unrelated, but to show off my coverage reading skillz, that route combo has resulted in me throwing more interceptions than any other combo in the game. Every interception on that combo comes from me thinking the CB is following the streak and I’ve got an easy completion on the out, only to have the CB sit down on the out route and just patiently waiting while I throw the ball right to him….. I’m so bad that I’ve basically just abandoned that read as it’s clear I’ll never get it right.

I think the cover 2 shell directly caused this issue. Had you been aligned in the default cover 4 look, I don’t think you would have gotten a collision on WR2 from the apex, which would have given the DBs a more immediate read on his out release, which would have let them switch in time to cover the deep ball. Palms is basically cover 0 man on deep routes, if you misalign the DBs you put yourself in a bad leverage situation.

Had you called quarters, you would have ended up with 2on1 on the fade.

Palms is a great coverage against 2x2 formations, it’s best when those two guys are close so the DBs are in better position for the very/out combo.

Personally, I prefer to run palms vs 2x2 and quarters vs 3x1.