OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

[dkp23]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

I'm no game developer or anything, but to me, what is the good of improving animations when most of the animations when players interact are canned?

People complain about foot planting and sliding, but even 2k football had sliding feet, but the animations were not triggered and canned. That is why gang tackling worked because anybody on the field can impact the play.

That is what EA needs to focus on, getting the game play to the point where the interactions from the players on the field are organic and realistic.

To me, EA is not focused on teh right things, did they really need to change the play call screen? Adding indictators on top of the player, defensive cone. In the past, communities, gameflow, surprise onside kick, strat pad, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

No, they really didnt, those werent really necessary and where are they now? The focus needs to be strictly on the gameplay and the engine where they are eliminating canned animations, realistic reactions to the play and ball, and less arcadey movements from the players (zig zag).

Instead, they want to focus on fake features to sell a subpar product, imagine all that wasted time on building features that weren't really necessary and were invested in actually fixing the game play.

To me, presentation, teh crowd, the details on the helmet or whatever means nothing if your gameplay is horrible. When we play the games, all the extra perks gets overlooked by the frustration of the gameplay so whatever halftime show EA wants to implement, wont matter if the game plays like crap. Get the gameplay right first and then everything else builds upon a good game.

At this point, i think the game has been developed too long to even allow the game to change. I dont see many of the issues we have today going away soon.

[BezO]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

dkp,

I agree with you accept that I don't think 2K's animations were any less canned. They were just programmed better and triggered in the proper context and interruptable. But they didn't have a physics engine or anything like that. Just some very good programming.

I can't call it for EA. Their programming is just very static. To give an example that I'm more familiar with, I suggested retiering the defensive playbooks to allow for separate blitz/stunt and coverage/shell calls. I was told they would have to completely redo the blocking AI. In other words, the blocking was/is tied to the defensive call. This was back in 2009, but I don't believe it's changed.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about when I say Madden hasn't changed much. Some folks look at few new animations and some stated AI improvements and see change. I look at the core gameplay and see the same things I've seen the entire last gen.

The fact that the defensive assignments & blocking assignments are connected in such a way is a major problem. So something that we would think would be of moderate difficulty to change is extremely difficult for EA because of the base coding.

I believe this is the issue with tackling. For another game to have a better version 2 generations ago is alarming. Gang tackling & proper context obviously can be done. But something about EA's coding makes it a huge issue for THEM. I don't think this is something that producers can fix... the guys whose names we know, the idea guys. IMO, this is a deeper coding issue, handled by programmers whose names we don't know.

[Only1LT]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

Tiburon has it's Madden development focus exactly where it needs to be. It's on gameplay. The issue that I have is that I don't think they've done enough in that department and what they have done wasn't implemented very well.

The focus is far from the problem. Just too little ROI for that focus.

[jyoung]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

I agree with you accept that I don't think 2K's animations were any less canned. They were just programmed better and triggered in the proper context and interruptable. But they didn't have a physics engine or anything like that. Just some very good programming.

There are definitely physics in a game like All-Pro Football 2K8, it's just that they're not procedurally generated like they are in Backbreaker or in Madden.

Physics are what allow larger running backs like Christian Okoye to fall forward while being tackled, whereas a smaller runner like Dave Meggett gets stopped in his tracks or pushed backwards.

Physics also allow a huge nose tackle like William Perry to push the center back into the quarterback's face, before he even attempts a pass rush "special move" animation. Conversely, a smaller tackle like Mike Golic will get pushed off the line of scrimmage by a skilled center like Dermontti Dawson, without the need for a silly, decleating "pancake" animation.

Every tackle and blocking collision in the game is judging the weight, direction and momentum of the colliding players to determine the type of animation that plays out (pushed back, pushed forward, neutral held up).

[BezO]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

There are definitely physics in a game like All-Pro Football 2K8, it's just that they're not procedurally generated like they are in Backbreaker or in Madden.

Physics are what allow larger running backs like Christian Okoye to fall forward while being tackled, whereas a smaller runner like Dave Meggett gets stopped in his tracks or pushed backwards.

Physics also allow a huge nose tackle like William Perry to push the center back into the quarterback's face, before he even attempts a pass rush "special move" animation. Conversely, a smaller tackle like Mike Golic will get pushed off the line of scrimmage by a skilled center like Dermontti Dawson, without the need for a silly, decleating "pancake" animation.

Every tackle and blocking collision in the game is judging the weight, direction and momentum of the colliding players to determine the type of animation that plays out (pushed back, pushed forward, neutral held up).

I think we're saying the same thing.

When folks say physics, I'm thinking real time physics, like Backbreaker. We agree that's not in 2K.

I simply think 2K did a better job programming the context of their tackle animations, considering angles, mementun & ratings. And they're also breakable animations, allowing for reactions to additional defenders coming in. If you're calling that physics, cool.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

Where focus goes: energy follows and where energy flows: work is surely going on there.

I can drive the streets yet not focus on the streets.

I perceive that their focus is always drifting: north, south, east, west and never arriving at the said destination on the much too promised land of Madden euphoria..

Spoiler

I can see baby steps in the direction they said they would go but they do not show signs that they will finish the race: rather they will overcome a few hurdles, tweak a few flaws, then abort the mission and start a new project, leaving the last one incomplete and underdeveloped.

When they start a new race: the cycle repeats: overcome a few hurdles, tweak a few flaws, then abort the mission and start a new project [...].

In my perspective: the focus is feigned, like an attention deficit disorder recognized in an individual: the company heads do not stay on task long enough to have grasped and mastered the concepts in full that they intend to design and implement..

Spoiler

Attending focus with fear or faith is not nearly as important as having a vision of the right, true direction to go in that will lead to the coveted rewards.

You can go in faith and still go wrong; you can go in fear and still go right: it is important to set the direction right.

EA, the Senate, has to decide the State of their empire and not us.

If EA is going to cater to the 8-13 YO gamer and allow that gamer's deficiencies and skill to dictate their designs: then I see no hope of the game maturing in the simulation sense of matching the NFL designs.

EA Tiburon, like a Mayor of new City developments, should first design the streets, design the laws of the streets, and then certify the vehichles and drivers for the streets.

Spoiler

In the same sense, it will serve us well that EA Tiburon continue to make systems available for the novice gamer to be able to mature and graduate into an advanced gamer (levels) while keeping the establishment of the NFL product entact opposed to making the NFL product fit for a child which is like making pee-wee football fit for an adult.

Once a gamer plays on the standard difficulty for Online Play: they should be challenged to play in respect to a professional manner and this impetus shall be set in accordance by circumstances and by AI.

Is EA Tiburon merely going about the motions of designing a simulation NFL product - mearly pointing, hinting at the essense but never touching on the true things and hitting the mark?

In response to the above: I believe, from experience, that they are merely pointing to the stars and moon and have no plans to actually deliver and hit the mark on those aims.

On the ground level, and face of things, the game remains to look like Football but in motion and under the hood it is a mockery and merely a hint to the essense of the NFL and should be further ahead in processing football mechanics and AI.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

[BallSoHardU]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

Given how offense-oriented of a game Madden has been has historically been, I don't understand how the answer to this question can possibly be "no".

But it's focus isn't on defense. It's on flashy back of the box features while we still see insane motion shifting.

[Branchurian]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

Handsomehanz! GONE NOW, PREACH!

[Toupal]

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