OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Yes and no. They are making improvements beyond the superfluous. The problem still exists though, the very foundation of the game is broken. The very engine the game is built on is fundamentally incapable of replicating football. This game still seems to be running on that horrible animation engine from 2006 when the 360/Ps3 came out. The foundation was broken then even when compared to previous iterations of Madden, and its previous competitors. 8 years later and it really doesn't seems we have moved beyond that base. The game needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, down to the very first line of code.

If you have a decrepit house, and decide to fix it up by by repainting it, giving it new appliances, and placing some editions onto it, all the while ignoring the crumbling foundation, are you moving that house in the right direction?

[JHamilton9]

I bought every edition of Madden since it first came out on PS2. Last year was the first year didn't buy a new copy within a week of it's release. I waited and bought a used copy for PS3. I didn't even buy M25 for PS4.

As Jerros mentioned earlier, EA is using the same gimmick and sales pitch as they did for M05. As soon as I heard that, I decided I was done purchasing the game. I've been fooled the last 5 or 6 times by their slick sales pitches and hollow promises.

I understand why EA won't give an absolutely complete game: why would I have to buy another game if I just bought the perfect one? I just don't understand why I came away more and more disappointed each year.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

I bought every edition of Madden since it first came out on PS2. Last year was the first year didn't buy a new copy within a week of it's release. I waited and bought a used copy for PS3. I didn't even buy M25 for PS4.

As Jerros mentioned earlier, EA is using the same gimmick and sales pitch as they did for M05. As soon as I heard that, I decided I was done purchasing the game. I've been fooled the last 5 or 6 times by their slick sales pitches and hollow promises.

I understand why EA won't give an absolutely complete game: why would I have to buy another game if I just bought the perfect one? I just don't understand why I came away more and more disappointed each year.

Perfect in what sense, the entire package or just the gameplay? There's always something to add to a stellar product.

There is a percentage of gamer that simply wants the shiniest and newest with the most updated roster; the addition of a real immersive pregame, halftime, and post game show; how about real breakdown of key plays during the halftime and post game shows; maybe there is a subset that simply buys it for the new cover athlete; create a ficticious college football mode that meshes with the NFL portion since the NCAA no longer has a football game; how about a limited amount of autograph cards of whatever athlete randomized for both XB1 and PS4 units; how about past legends, etc. you name it.

Whatever that "perfect" game may be developed, there's always stuff you can add and market to bait and hook gamers

[Jerros]

There should honestly be a laugh track whenever someone defends Madden and says they are gradually improving. The lies they told at E3 were just ridiculous. I have a video you guys need to see. But before you watch it, just keep in mind what the guy at E3 said in the beginning of his Madden presentation. Remember the words ALL NEW INNOVATIONS. Just let that resonate in your mind then watch this video. The lies and the hilarity of it all is just classic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUxQEIcw5Sg

[jpdavis82]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

Non of the announcements or CG trailers matter until we see someone on the sticks playing.

Those videos are out there. I hooked my phone up to my tv and was pretty impressed with the player models, player movement, running animations, everything just looks better, every detail looks better in every way. The game isn't where we want it yet but I think 40% of OS users will be blown away when they see the game in person. I think 80% of causal madden fans will be, because graphics impress casuals and the game looks truly next gen now. Rex said last year that it would be another year or two before they get it truly turned around and at the same time said he didn't feel like they nailed anything with M25. I feel like this team is honest and open with us and they are doing their part to deliver the product we all want. In the end we have to judge them on the execution of the final product. If the game continues to improve and add the little things then if you liked M25, you'll like each Madden more from here on. If you didn't like 25 maybe 15 will do it. If not then 16 and if not 16 it's time to close up shop for good. I know I said this about 15 but I'm giving them one extra year with 25 being a port. Everyone on here can bookmark and hold me to this, I will eat my words proudly but Madden 16 is the 3rd year of the 3 year plan so after that there's NO excuse I can accept or consider.

[jpdavis82]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

Lets go back to where the old team was on their second title of a new console and compare it with the second next gen title in alpha version of the team today.

http://youtu.be/9Xq3n8bz6N4

Vs

http://youtu.be/9D2GK_z3Az0

Which looks more like sim football to you? Look past the graphics and look at the football fundamentals, player movement, ai, etc...

[jpdavis82]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

In this article Ian talks about the illusion of cutting left and right to hit the hole. While he did have some good ideas and wanted sim aspects, I don't think he had the same focus and desire to deliver sim that Cam and Rex do. I don't plan on hearing them talk about giving an illusion of anything when it comes to sim football.

http://www.operationsports.com/featu...ngs-interview/

[StormsWarning]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

There should honestly be a laugh track whenever someone defends Madden and says they are gradually improving. The lies they told at E3 were just ridiculous. I have a video you guys need to see. But before you watch it, just keep in mind what the guy at E3 said in the beginning of his Madden presentation. Remember the words ALL NEW INNOVATIONS. Just let that resonate in your mind then watch this video. The lies and the hilarity of it all is just classic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUxQEIcw5Sg

This video right here has given me some things to really think about with this company & this football game. even looking at the videos Im starting to see some things I didn't like in this version, that was in 25 as well, at any rate we'll get to see what goes on when the game is released, and i guess at that point, we'll see where all this goes, but when I see several sources of video with actual evidence proving ea and the developers are up to that same ol, same ol, then yeah, its time to reevaluate my own spending in whether or not i want to support the company & there brand of a football game.

This is why there have been alot of games being delayed for the newer consoles, they know there games are undeveloped & they would rather delay there product until one is ready that they feel is good enough to be released to the public, they also don't wanna be known for disgracing the industry by being money hungry aka ( greed ) and that truly is what ea has done.

The 2k battle and ea battle that's natural business competition, but when I look at these past e3 madden events, the calling out by Rex incident & the fact that madden being out since 1988 - ( madden 25 ) - 2015 I have to question things seriously, no matter how much I would like to have a new'er polished looking game, at the end of the day I just want a great virtual world of football & fundamentals. And if that means going back to playing some older titles then so be it, but I refuse anymore to close my eyes to some of the, yeah were getting there, and give them time routine. Madden should be the # 1 game right now truthfully, in every aspect. I guess THE REAL QUESTION WE NEED TO ASK OUR SELF'S WHY AR'NT THEY? LOOK AT THAT HISTORY TIME LINE?

Do you really feel in 27 YEARS! This company is evolved to where you want YOUR virtual world experience to be? you have to make that choice, this is very serious situation going on, I don't expect the younger kids to follow this, I really don't, especially in this generation we live, but to those that came up in that original old school era I do expect alot more, and that's what makes me wonder, because Rex & his team is from that old school era and I know they know football, which is why I'm wondering is it really them or the Suits! at any rate as I said we will see soon enough.

1988 - ( madden 25 ) - 2015

Evolved to where they should be or No ? 27 years!

[Big FN Deal]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

In this article Ian talks about the illusion of cutting left and right to hit the hole. While he did have some good ideas and wanted sim aspects, I don't think he had the same focus and desire to deliver sim that Cam and Rex do. I don't plan on hearing them talk about giving an illusion of anything when it comes to sim football.

http://www.operationsports.com/featu...ngs-interview/

I just quoted this because it was the closet but my general point is about this notion that Madden is somehow NOW officially, almost, on its' way, to being a football simulation. All the other stuff aside that has been talked about ad nauseam for years, let's just look at the actual game itself. This notion about we're headed in a sim direction has gotten ridiculous, imo and I've been guilty of it myself. Regardless of the good intentions, passion, talent or whatever of anyone working on the game, it can't arrive as a football sim until it has. I don't care what anyone says about the game, the actual product will speak for itself EVERY time.

Please spare me the spiel about "no video game is perfect", "Rome wasn't built in a day", yada, yada, yada, because there is a difference between a sim video game with unrealistic/arcade flaws versus a video game with intentionally designed unrealistic elements and it's very clear which group Madden STILL falls in.

[roadman]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

In this article Ian talks about the illusion of cutting left and right to hit the hole. While he did have some good ideas and wanted sim aspects, I don't think he had the same focus and desire to deliver sim that Cam and Rex do. I don't plan on hearing them talk about giving an illusion of anything when it comes to sim football.

http://www.operationsports.com/featu...ngs-interview/

JP, I was in communication with Ian and all he wanted to do was make a simulation football game. There were other factors outside of Ian that prevented that.

When Ian took over, it was blame Ortiz. ( I was a part of that crowd, now, I'm older and wiser)

It's just a vicious, wash, rinse, repeat cycle.

I don't need to hear that 16 or 17 will be NFL sim football games, I need to see it without anyone else's bold crystal ball predictions.(not a slight at you, I was once enthusiastic too)

Although, I will say, just a gut, I have a slightly favorable impression, but I need to see more grand scale improvements.

[dat boi Q]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

We are not asking EA for much. Just clean up the core of the game. Animations,penalties,interactions,sliders that work,ratings that reflect gameplay.

Stop bringing in new features that make legacy issues stand out more.
Madden 15 is all about defense, but what stands out to someone who has been playing madden are the terrible tackle animations and lack of two and three man tackles.

If madden 15 just fixed the the things I stated above we could tweak the game to how we want it. That's our best bet to get a sim game from EA. Just fix the core stuff, give us sliders to everything and move out the way. This game can't go fully sim without EA making the tourney and online crowd mad. So it they have to choose between them and us I know who they are going to choose. We go through this same dance and pony show every year and now it's just comical to me. Some like me have already came to the conclusion that madden just isn't made for our crowd.

[burter]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

I just quoted this because it was the closet but my general point is about this notion that Madden is somehow NOW officially, almost, on its' way, to being a football simulation. All the other stuff aside that has been talked about ad nauseam for years, let's just look at the actual game itself. This notion about we're headed in a sim direction has gotten ridiculous, imo and I've been guilty of it myself. Regardless of the good intentions, passion, talent or whatever of anyone working on the game, it can't arrive as a football sim until it has. I don't care what anyone says about the game, the actual product will speak for itself EVERY time.

Please spare me the spiel about "no video game is perfect", "Rome wasn't built in a day", yada, yada, yada, because there is a difference between a sim video game with unrealistic/arcade flaws versus a video game with intentionally designed unrealistic elements and it's very clear which group Madden STILL falls in.

I think the Pyramids where built faster, lol.

Anyways wasn't Ian on the team for madden 10? If so that was the best Madden I played. Foot planting finally that made the game feel a lot better and more realistic. Than for whatever reason it got switch back to Ice Skating R US. Like really I just chuckle every time someone brings up sim and Madden because they still got Nancy Kerrigan ice capades as their foot planting.......

[jpdavis82]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

I think the Pyramids where built faster, lol.

Anyways wasn't Ian on the team for madden 10? If so that was the best Madden I played. Foot planting finally that made the game feel a lot better and more realistic. Than for whatever reason it got switch back to Ice Skating R US. Like really I just chuckle every time someone brings up sim and Madden because they still got Nancy Kerrigan ice capades as their foot planting.......

They do need to implement true step for the CPU and all 22 players, but I think they are focusing on the brains of the game(football fundamentals) for now and will finish working on signature animations and player movement next. The players have to think and respond like football players before anything else IMO. I think that's the direction they have chosen and I'm ok with that, IF that's their plan.

True Step does extend beyond the ball carrier with 15 and player movement is better overall. I didn't really notice it on my phone, but when I saw M15 on my 46" tv I could tell the animations are smoother and foot planting is there for user controlled players. The player models look SO much more accurate now too, which is another thing I couldn't really tell from seeing it on my phone.

Corey Andress said something similar about animations and player movement in his impressions article.

"The animations themselves have taken huge strides as well. Players move more realistically and tackles look much better than before. Going into instant replay now is a lot of fun just to watch the different tackles and contact take place. It might not be noticeable to the casual player, but for me there was a huge step taken in making what was happening on the field look much more realistic."

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

They do need to implement true step for the CPU and all 22 players, but I think they are focusing on the brains of the game(football fundamentals) for now and will finish working on signature animations and player movement next. The players have to think and respond like football players before anything else IMO. I think that's the direction they have chosen and I'm ok with that, IF that's their plan.

True Step does extend beyond the ball carrier with 15 and player movement is better overall. I didn't really notice it on my phone, but when I saw M15 on my 46" tv I could tell the animations are smoother and foot planting is there for user controlled players. The player models look SO much more accurate now too, which is another thing I couldn't really tell from seeing it on my phone.

Corey Andress said something similar about animations and player movement in his impressions article.

"The animations themselves have taken huge strides as well. Players move more realistically and tackles look much better than before. Going into instant replay now is a lot of fun just to watch the different tackles and contact take place. It might not be noticeable to the casual player, but for me there was a huge step taken in making what was happening on the field look much more realistic."

Football fundamentals is absolutely important. But putting football fundamentals ahead of true steps is completely backwards thinking.

The way someone moves from point A to point B is solely dependent on footwork, foot placement. If it works theoretically as advertised (and that is a big if), true step should completely eliminate awkward sliding, and any suction movements.

Have you given any consideration that implementing "true step" after football fundamentals have been tuned to perfection could indeed "break" the established game play? The programmed AI offensive, defensive, formations and executions could all come crashing down because the "football fundamentals" were established when 22 (plus or minus) on the field still has the ability to slip and slide?

(A) Without True Step: The ability of the OL was able to pick up the block because he was able to slip and slide into position.
(B) With True Step implementation: the OL wasn't able to pick up the block because "true step" worked and he was out of position.

....Backwards, because what this means is the entire team needs to go back and rework the AI if implementing 'true step' "breaks" the slip and slide gameplay. Tune football fundamentals based on all 22 players initially still having slip and slide characteristics. And what is that going to do? Another 3 year plan just to correct the mistakes that could have been avoided had the proper approach been employed. How old do all the Grandpas have to be to get a realistic football game?

[BezO]

Re: OS Roundtable: Is Madden's Focus Where it Should Be?

^^^^^^^^
Why I don't feel Madden will be good any time soon. How do you implement AI without addressing the animations and locomotion?

I don't know if you can fix the locomotion separate from the AI as I think they would need to be done at the same time. I know Ian was working on the footwork and one of the problems he mentioned was getting the defenders to use it properly... not over running plays & such.

When I was there last, Ian had a beautify demo of ball carrier footwork for me to play with. I haven't seen ANYTHING like this implemented yet, and it's been 4-5 years.

Lets go back to where the old team was on their second title of a new console and compare it with the second next gen title in alpha version of the team today.

http://youtu.be/9Xq3n8bz6N4

Vs

http://youtu.be/9D2GK_z3Az0

Which looks more like sim football to you? Look past the graphics and look at the football fundamentals, player movement, ai, etc...

For what I'm looking for, there is little difference. But before I get into detail, I'm curious about what you think has improved so much.

In this article Ian talks about the illusion of cutting left and right to hit the hole. While he did have some good ideas and wanted sim aspects, I don't think he had the same focus and desire to deliver sim that Cam and Rex do. I don't plan on hearing them talk about giving an illusion of anything when it comes to sim football.

http://www.operationsports.com/featu...ngs-interview/

Same goal, different language.

When we hear from the guys that do the hardcore coding for the game, I'll listen.