EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

[kingdavidtaylor1989]

Simple formula for 2k to get back into making football games. Make a fully customizable game with realistic graphics. You can get around the license issue by allowing gamers to re-create the NFL through total customization. Add in full player editing such as skin tones, hairstyles and facial features along with the other stuff such as weight, height and stats and you're set. This would allow the gamer to re-create a player's likness. Facial scans wouldn't matter because football players are in the helmets most of the time anyway. But FULL customization like BackBreaker and you have a brand new NFL game without the license. Plain and simple, no more excuses. I have an extensive write up about this with a ton of features that would make this game potenitally revolutionary. We all know they have the graphics engine. Either they want to make a game or they just no longer care. But there's really no excuse in my eyes. Move on, EA has the license, time for 2k to exploit the customization loophole and give us a game.

ummm where do you have this information? Plus for comparison between Madden and 2K football, all you have to look at is the QB throwing motion. Then you will see which game is more fluid. Also you can look at Interaction. 2k Blows Madden anything out of the park. Not an opinion. See for yourself.

[SageInfinite]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Sorry about that. I didn't realize you were the same person I was having the back and forth with before (it was late and I was skimming through).

All I can say is, this is kind of my area of expertise. So it's frustrating when people come in throwing out statements of this and that when they are clearly seeing it through the eye of the consumers. I'm not saying that that is necessarily a bad thing, but if you flip the tables and put yourself on the business side of it it is very clear to see why EA did what they did. I can understand being mad about it all as a consumer (like I said I now hate Madden because it is so terrible IMO) but you can't villainize EA when they did the most logical thing they possibly could have done.

Maybe they should've followed up the licensing agreement with hiring the entire 2K crew to work on Madden

No problem man. I personally never said the move was a bad business move. It was a power "checkmate" type move that only companies with resources like EA could make. Totally understand it.

Coming onto this site as strictly a gamer, I can only speak with passion from that perspective. I just know how I think as a person. Maybe I would be successful running EA, maybe I'd be fired the first day, lol, who knows.

I would have so much more respect for EA as a gamer had they tried to pacify the fans who they just newly acquired through the licensing by making a game that was more of a hybrid and as you said, taking on some of 2k's staff if they wanted to continue to work on an NFL game, to give us something to make us totally forget 2k football ever existed.

As a business minded man, they don't have to do anything but stay in business and continue to increase revenue and make the money they spent acquiring the license pay off. Basically just stay at the top like they've been.

Again EA/Tiburon is marketing this game as a sim now, so hopefully in the near future we won't be having any conversations like this, we'll all be too busy playing the awesome game known as Madden, but we'll see.

[StefJoeHalt]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Let's all be honest on many levels everyone realizes for the most part that Madden has not done as good of a job we all wanted..being I have NO background in programming at all..it appears the "base gameplay" code (or whatever it's called) is flawed..it appears that when they try and fix it something else breaks..again basic terms..the easiest way for me to compare (understand it) the whole video football game situation is this...Madden is the first girl friend i had..then new girl moves into town (2k) and the "grass was green on other side" that "girlfriend" had flaws just like the first but different flaws..then that girlfriend (2k) left and I had to go back to first girlfriend (Madden)..then while at the bar one night I met this new girl (Backbreaker)..she appeared hot but as soon as the lights turned on in the morning I realize I drink to much meeting Backbreaker and she was ugly as sin..then back to Madden I went..Madden this year was nice enough to "workout" and get this "smoking hot" new body..however when Madden opens her mouth she is dumb as "rocks"..but like woman, Madden has the power lol..and I'm stuck with good looking Madden but god she (Madden) makes me want to slam my head against the wall


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[OhMrHanky]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Let's all be honest on many levels everyone realizes for the most part that Madden has not done as good of a job we all wanted..being I have NO background in programming at all..it appears the "base gameplay" code (or whatever it's called) is flawed..it appears that when they try and fix it something else breaks..again basic terms..the easiest way for me to compare (understand it) the whole video football game situation is this...Madden is the first girl friend i had..then new girl moves into town (2k) and the "grass was green on other side" that "girlfriend" had flaws just like the first but different flaws..then that girlfriend (2k) left and I had to go back to first girlfriend (Madden)..then while at the bar one night I met this new girl (Backbreaker)..she appeared hot but as soon as the lights turned on in the morning I realize I drink to much meeting Backbreaker and she was ugly as sin..then back to Madden I went..Madden this year was nice enough to "workout" and get this "smoking hot" new body..however when Madden opens her mouth she is dumb as "rocks"..but like woman, Madden has the power lol..and I'm stuck with good looking Madden but god she (Madden) makes me want to slam my head against the wall


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Yeah, that actually sums it up quite nicely.

[KingofATL]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

2k sports is a subsidiary of a company with some pretty deep pockets themselves. It's not some operation run out of some guys garage.

I hear you but...

You have to understand 2K Sports has a track record of cancelled & failed games. Just look at their line up. They tried a boxing game and it failed miserably. NHL 2K couldn't compete with the success of EA's NHL game and was cancelled. MLB 2K was just cancelled. All-Pro Football was ok but they never went forward with that either. The only other tittles that sees some success from 2K sports is NBA, WWE & Top Spin and even that is a mixed bag because most folks are not into tennis or wrestling like that.

My point is EA is just getting more money in the end. They have all the games out. Good or bad they make games. They don't cancel a lot of their games like 2K does. And in the end when it comes to sales that is what counts. It's all about making money. You can't make money if you don't have games out, right?

And I am no EA fanboy. I feel the same was a lot of folks feel. But the truth is they have more resources to make games. The most important part of making these games is the licensing. The ability to use every players name and likeness and all of the things that we see on tv in real life. That stuff cost money. And just like with the NFL & NCAA situation, those leagues probably want a lot of money to use their stuff and the bottom line is EA has it and 2K obviously can't match or is not willing to match what EA is paying. That's the bottom line here. If 2K was willing to match or beat what EA is paying then we would definitely see a 2K football game.

[Cre8]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

...However, the biggest news to come out of the 2K camp at E3 might have been Ronnie2K confirming that not only was 2K not working on a football game...

Tells me that there is no reason to hope for any 2K Football - ever.

[coogrfan]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madden_NFL_2005

An exert fron the Reception article

"
ESPN NFL 2K5 was the first in the 2K series priced at $19.99 the day it shipped, much lower than market leader Madden NFL at $49.99. This greatly reduced Madden sales that year; one EA Sports developer recalled that "[i]t scared the hell out of us".[11] EA reduced Madden NFL 2005's price to $29.95. In December 2004 EA Sports acquired an exclusive rights agreement with the NFL and NFLPA to be the sole creator of NFL video games."

For what it's worth, according to vgchartz:

Madden NFL 2004 (North America) PS2 4.26 million units + XB 1.02 million units = 5.28 million units.

ESPN NFL Football (North America) PS2 .27 million units + XB .27 million units = .54 million units.

Madden NFL 2005 (North America) PS2 4.18 million units + XB 1.61 million units = 5.79 million units.

ESPN NFL 2k5 (North America) PS2 2.15 million units + XB .1.54 million units = 3.69 million units.

[jmarcguy]

I honestly doubt I'll play another football game in what's remaining of my "gaming life". I always give Madden a chance but I admit a certain amount of bitterness. Wrongly placed bitterness but it's there.

[FaceMask]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Perhaps you should stop looking at the situation only from an NFL perspective. You seem to be ignoring that the NCAA football and Arena Football League licenses also went exclusive, all within a week or two of it happening with the NFL. Again, it takes a ridiculous leap of logic to assume they were all coincidences. Especially when you consider 2K or Sony weren't even making college football games at the time. And neither had attempted an Arena League game.

EA had.

And through some miracle all these entities decided at once to make their licenses exclusive at the same time. They basically decided to raise their licensing fees to an amount [that had to be more than what they would've gotten collectively from multiple suitors] at a time when no one other than EA was showing interest in their properties. Give me a break.

EA acted to keep 2K or anyone else from making a legitimate football game by locking up every major U.S. football license - period.

Yep, it's undeniable. Plus, you have to thrown in their acquisition of the ESPN license, too, and consider how integral that license was to 2K's sports games at the time. These were all clearly strategic disarming tactics to shut out a strong competitor.

[SageInfinite]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Yep, it's undeniable. Plus, you have to thrown in their acquisition of the ESPN license, too, and consider how integral that license was to 2K's sports games at the time. These were all clearly strategic disarming tactics to shut out a strong competitor.

Yet another piece of the puzzle people forget about. Got that license and didn't jack **** with it for years.

[jerwoods]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

I Would had put SportsCenter in Madden 06 for the xbox 360 also made franchise mode like ESPN NFL Page as well

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Perhaps you should stop looking at the situation only from an NFL perspective. You seem to be ignoring that the NCAA football and Arena Football League licenses also went exclusive, all within a week or two of it happening with the NFL. Again, it takes a ridiculous leap of logic to assume they were all coincidences. Especially when you consider 2K or Sony weren't even making college football games at the time. And neither had attempted an Arena League game.

EA had.

And through some miracle all these entities decided at once to make their licenses exclusive at the same time. They basically decided to raise their licensing fees to an amount [that had to be more than what they would've gotten collectively from multiple suitors] at a time when no one other than EA was showing interest in their properties. Give me a break.

EA acted to keep 2K or anyone else from making a legitimate football game by locking up every major U.S. football license - period.

Nothing you said is invalid but it also does not make the $19.99 argument anymore invalid - that price point was the impetus that set the precedence for the whirlwind of exclusive agreements that followed.

Do I believe the two, NFL and EA, were both offended by NFL 2K5's marginally low price points? Absolutely - without that notion there is not much grounds to sue the NFL or EA on regarding monopolies and price fixing the NFL video game product.

How do you know the contract stipulations of the shared license at the time? You assume it was an upfront cost - what if the NFL stipulated to also take a piece of sales, a comission incentive of sorts? Now unit prices would matter -- they had to have mattered or EA and NFL would have reached an agreement sooner when there was more competition prior to the release of ESPN 2K5 and Madden 05.

Around that time I also learn that the NFL went on a spending binge and plopped down Millions for a Visa exclusive rights agreement.

I believe they, EA and the NFL, had the same rulership motives at the time.

Some use their position on this argument like a big bang theory but give no explanation to the big bang - why did EA suddenly buy up and secure these exclusive licenses?

They saw what a smaller developer with a creative mind, like 2K, could do to infringe on their market share by selling competitively lower than the standards of the day.

EA's competitve advantage remained their capital and they used it to secure the licenses to themselves which is legal.

Yes, these actions signified that 2K was essentially neutered and kicked in the teeth when EA secured exclusive rights to the NFL and ESPN albeit they have yet to use ESPN in their subsequent Madden titles - they did it all to destroy the brand power of 2K and anyone else to follow in their shadows.

If the impetus was not price points: these deals would have been proposed and met sooner sooner if it was simply about power and control.

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[BizDevConglomerate]

Simple formula for 2k to get back into making football games. Make a fully customizable game with realistic graphics. You can get around the license issue by allowing gamers to re-create the NFL through total customization. Add in full player editing such as skin tones, hairstyles and facial features along with the other stuff such as weight, height and stats and you're set. This would allow the gamer to re-create a player's likness. Facial scans wouldn't matter because football players are in the helmets most of the time anyway. But FULL customization like BackBreaker and you have a brand new NFL game without the license. Plain and simple, no more excuses. I have an extensive write up about this with a ton of features that would make this game potenitally revolutionary. We all know they have the graphics engine. Either they want to make a game or they just no longer care. But there's really no excuse in my eyes. Move on, EA has the license, time for 2k to exploit the customization loophole and give us a game.

Yoooooooooooooo, thanks for stealing my post. Looks like we were on the same page . lol. But that's a first I saw someone stall every word I wrote. That's true thievery. I love it. Thanks man. Now go to 2k twitter and flood em with #bringbackAPFWITHUS&KICKSTARTER

[BizDevConglomerate]

ummm where do you have this information? Plus for comparison between Madden and 2K football, all you have to look at is the QB throwing motion. Then you will see which game is more fluid. Also you can look at Interaction. 2k Blows Madden anything out of the park. Not an opinion. See for yourself.

Hey since buddy plagiarized my earlier post, it's only right I respond to you. I got the idea not info from looking at APF and Backbreaker. Also the many other generic titles that have been released. Also the fact that EA's team builder and team slots meant the use could have a bigger role in the first of customization and team creation or edits. The cloud, man if they just use the cloud, make a shell of a game and we customize it to to depth or death or deff that generic game becomes the real deal. Eff the license. That like buying a Benz to Impress people in school and your the most popular student. Buy the optima and save money for gas. It's simple. But 2k has to be down to, or better yet Visual Concepts. Visual concepts is the problem b and Scott Paterson. I do have a game concept on paper that will kill all of these games but I'm nobody. I sent it to Leigh Steinberg and VC. All we need is a real Dev, and kickstarter or fund raza to get this going. No more game being sold every year yo. They can just update the joint through cloud.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: EA Still Owns the NFL License Exclusively

Actually, if your inquiry is into why the game is in the state that it's in I'd say this.

EA has had great producers (IMO). They went out and hired ex-NFL players. They have access to all tape. They talk with coaches every year. So why is the game in the shape that it is in???

I wouldn't care if Ray Lewis was let's say the Producer of Tackling. He can sit there and tell programmers all day long about how tackling is supposed to be and what the outcomes would be, how this angle might produce that result. He's communicating with a programmer. And what he says is trying to be translating onto a computer screen. He can describe things perfectly day in and day out, but that does not mean that it's going to come up on that screen perfectly as he has described it.

We can watch all the videos from E3. EA hired Clint Oldenberg. But look at the OL. They might be blocking "right", but it still doesn't look organic. Same thing from the example above, he can tell them, but that doesn't mean it's going to be perfect in relationship to how he described it.

I'll speak on this point because lb is inside my head on this one :-) Clint, Larry, Rex (and to go back, Phil, Ian, Ortiz) these guys are designers/producers. They do not write any code. Their vision, ideas and designs may be excellent, but like all software, without the programmers with the ability to IMPLEMENT the design in a timely manner with a high level of quality it means nothing. On my team at work, we have over 15 designers. They design the flow of the apps along with the entire UI/UX. They do not write ANY code and many times they will get input from programmers on whether or not something in the design is feasible. I've never been to tiburon, but we have seen enough over the years to realize that some designs for gameplay have been solid, but where they fail is in implementation. The programmers writing the code are not at all what I would call best and brightest when you compare them to other studios. Design is questionable too because they don't ever think of things that other studios do. That's a separate topic that can also be expounded upon.

I've talked to several guys who worked there and went there and spent significant time with some central gameplay programmers and you wouldn't believe the horror stories I've heard. There are a couple of reasons why we never get a complete football game. The biggest reason is ability. They simply don't know how to do it. It's taken EA ten years to work on line play, but it's still not as good. We don't have any wr/db interaction and we had it in 2k4. It was never touted as a feature either because it is assumed. We also had all penalties and flAgs on the field, still yet to be done in madden, 10 years later. Again, it's difficult for them. This yeAr they are touting receivers reaching for errant passes. Ok, well great that it's in there, but really???? It's almost insulting to me as a consumer. They stress simulation and authenticity yet there are no reach tackles, no real time injuries, penalties, proper ball physics etc. All of which I had 10 years ago. What do I have instead???? Community play calling and a tackle cone. Honestly, you can't make this stuff up and it's at the point that it's comical.

For me personally, I'm moving on and have fully accepted that football gaming will never recover. It's been permanently tarnished and that's just the way it is. If you really think there will ever be another game, you are dead wrong. There will never be another game.

The one last thing I will add is that Tiburon deserves all of the criticism and vitriol they get. They eArned it, and the spectre of 2k will continue to haunt their developers for years to come. Shawn Lee and Abe Navarro can take solace in the fact that they mAde A far superior game with a fraction of the budget, developers and time, and the tiburon guys still can't do it ten yeArs later despite a ten year head start and an exclusive license. They can make all.of the challenges they want, but in the end they were bested by a smaller studio who, quite simply, is far better than they are when it comes to football.

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