When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

[maddog45]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

not high on the list? Something thats been in the sport of football forever has to be put on a list? that's absurd, every single play everyone has to play their assignments or their getting torched and benched and replaced by someone who could. This concept should've been in the game from the beginning of the madden.At least if the NFL is gonna be on the games name at least make them play how they're supposed too.

[maddog45]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

also If they add gap assignments stats WILL matter now. Both physical and fundamental attributes size and weight. How well your player can command double teams, which frees your line backers, and in man on man block situations, and how well a player can they can set the edge force a cut back and run into the weakside linebacker for a kill shot. Gap assignments happen EVERY DOWN forget i ever mentioned every game.

[roadman]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

not high on the list? Something thats been in the sport of football forever has to be put on a list? that's absurd, every single play everyone has to play their assignments or their getting torched and benched and replaced by someone who could. This concept should've been in the game from the beginning of the madden.At least if the NFL is gonna be on the games name at least make them play how they're supposed too.

I'm with you on this, but not everyone who watches football every Sunday and watches their favorite teams don't know what gap assignments are. I'll be talking to friends at a bar watching a game and they tell me they don't want to be bothered with that.

Just saying, not everyone that plays Madden is well versed with gap assignments.

That's why I'm for a simple button mechanic, simulation and arcade.

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

I'm with you on this, but not everyone who watches football every Sunday and watches their favorite teams don't know what gap assignments are. I'll be talking to friends at a bar watching a game and they tell me they don't want to be bothered with that.

Just saying, not everyone that plays Madden is well versed with gap assignments.

That's why I'm for a simple button mechanic, simulation and arcade.

Maybe they won't understand it, but they will begin to love it when they can finally stop the 20 Yard per Carry outside runs that the game has allowed for years due to failed gap assignments.

I think the main issue here is that too much of the focus in this game still seems to be going toward ultimate team and other marketing gimmicks. And we all know the reason for that.... $$$

[GiantBlue76]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

I'm with you on this, but not everyone who watches football every Sunday and watches their favorite teams don't know what gap assignments are. I'll be talking to friends at a bar watching a game and they tell me they don't want to be bothered with that.

Just saying, not everyone that plays Madden is well versed with gap assignments.

That's why I'm for a simple button mechanic, simulation and arcade.

It's actually not all that complicated to be honest. Let me put it in a different perspective. There were football games of the past that had proper gap assignments. Maybe you didn't realize it, or didn't care to notice it, but it was there. Madden's aren't completely broken, but they are not nearly where they should be.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

There are a lot of advanced assignments that exist on defense alone that folks do not understand but appreciate.

I will say though that a gap also creates a hole for a fire blitz and that is a problem area to adress as well albeit it would be nice to see some stock blitzes work as they should in respect to overloading and stunting w/o getting into any convoluted pre snap procedures.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

[LBzrule]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

When you ask about gap assignments I have to ask what you mean? Madden actually does have "gap assignments" vs the run anyway. They don't have gap pass rush but the game does have gap assignment vs the run. It's very simple. Wherever your defensive lineman lines up that's the gap he's going to take. With that in mind, they need to work more on run assignments pending coverage call especially when the coverage dictates that one of the defenders up front will be responsible for two gaps.

Your classic two high safety coverage for instance will include your CB's as run defenders, but they are not responsible for anything on the interior so if the run is on the interior then one defender is going to be responsible for two gaps. To me this goes more into their linebacker behavior and still centers around the defense being founded on:

Force Player
Spiller
Cutback Player
PA Boot Player

Take a look at the following diagram of a 2 High Safety Coverage call:



Because this is cover 2 with the CB's hugging up against the run both Safeties are the PA Boot Players so their first instinct is going to be pass. The CB's are in run support but cannot help with interior runs. You have 8 gaps with only 7 defenders so one of those front seven defenders will be responsible for two gaps. But notice it's not the line, it's one of the linebackers pending on the point of attack. Notice each defensive lineman has a gap. It's the linebackers here in this cover 2 that will be responsible for more than one gap. One of them will have to become the Force player against the interior run. That means stepping up and filling a hole and taking on the block and not sitting back looking at the lineman come at him. To me it's more about the linebacker behavior for Madden than the defensive line. Either way, it's coverage and assignment based on coverage.

[PSUEagle]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

When you ask about gap assignments I have to ask what you mean?

I can't speak for others, but for me gap assignments in Madden need to relate to what coverage and front is being played, both of which will dictate the technique played by linemen/linebackers.

On my phone so I won't go into huge detail, but basically I want to see front seven players wrong arm vs. gap schemes when playing a two high coverage, allowing the ball to bounce to force player (CB in Cover 2 and Safety in Cover 4).

Conversely, I want to see force players in a single high defense like Cover 3 always fight to keep their outside arm free, looking to turn any run back inside where the defense will have a +1 advantage in the form of an extra guy from the secondary.

Up front, I want to see linemen aligned directly over an OL (0 Tech, 2 Tech, and 4 Tech) two gap and attempt to stack and shed once the HB declares which side he will go. If a DL is not aligned that way, though, then obviously he is a penetration player who's job is to get upfield more.

Quick note on 1 Gap vs 2 Gap: the latter will be the direction more teams move in over the years to combat the spread run game. You see it in college with Stanford, and even Oregon became a 2 Gap 3-4 once Chip Kelly came on board as OC and started torching their 1 Gap 4-3 in practice with all of the read schemes his offense presents. So having said that, there needs to be a distinction in the game between a 3-4 where the DE lines up outside the tackle (1 Gap 3-4 Wade Phillips style) vs a 3-4 where the DE lines up head up (Eagles, Steelers, and 49ers immediately come to mind).

IMO, virtually every exploit that occurs in Madden is because sound defensive logic has not been programmed from the ground level: the guys making the game instead opt for quick fixes like this "Wide 9" crap as a run stopper for edge runs (lol). Each player should have a simple decision tree based on coverage and front vs. run and pass (i.e. against a kick out I do this, if #2 receiver runs to flat I do that, etc). Have awareness govern how often they execute vs **** up their assignments and call it a day.

Unfortunately, if any of this were going to occur it would have happened now that next gen is up and running. Instead they've decided to build on the legacy of already flawed code from the 360/PS3 era.

[LBzrule]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

I can't speak for others, but for me gap assignments in Madden need to relate to what coverage and front is being played, both of which will dictate the technique played by linemen/linebackers.

.

We are on the same page.

[maddog45]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

its impossible to play with a 7 man box and 2 high because theres no 2 gap player in madden so you'll get hit with big runs. Then your forced to play with 8 in the box and it puts the offense in an advantage with one on ones . Defense is bad in the game.

[Wolverines05]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

LBZ, can you explain exactly who plays the force, the spill, and cutback? is that determined in the huddle? and are these concepts fundamental to each and every defense? And how does one play force, spill or cutback?

also, gap assignments are in for defensive lineman on run plays, but not linebackers right? Their "gap" seems to be programmed solely based on their pursuit logic of the runningback i.e. no gap responsibility.

im making a video on the wide 9 currently, but would love some more insight bout force, spill, and cutback.

also, i know this isnt part of thread but could you explain how blockers know who to block in man blocking schemes? How does an offensive line change assignments on the fly based on defensive alignment? and how do they know who to pick up.

this isnt just a post for lbz btw, anyone who really knows football.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

LBZ, can you explain exactly who plays the force, the spill, and cutback? is that determined in the huddle? and are these concepts fundamental to each and every defense? And how does one play force, spill or cutback?

Keep in mind that all of this is going to be dictated pretty much by coverage and roles are going to change based on the direction of the run.

FORCE:
In this diagram you see the safety #26 to the strong side of the formation is playing the force. If the run bounces to the outside, his job is to attack where that arrow is pointing and turn the play back inside to his help. He doesn't necessarily have to make the tackle, but he's got to make sure the run doesn't get outside of him by any means necessary.

CUTBACK:
#50's job if the run is away is pretty much how it sounds. He has to make sure that if the run cuts back, he's there to make the play. He checks his gap at the snap, then when he sees it going away he pursues inside out. The key thing is that he can't be too aggressive and overrun the play. He can pursue hard, but he can't lose his leverage on the back's inside hip.

SPILL:
Once again that depends on the offensive play. For the sake of this diagram, let's say the offense is running a dive play to the defense's left. #51 will attack his A gap strong (the green arrow), forcing a double teaming offensive lineman to come off to get him. If it's done right he'll clog up the lane, thus spilling the ball outside to #56... and then to the force player if need be...

Now all of these roles will switch if the run goes the other way. And if the defense is in say a Cover 2 then the safety will have no run responsibility. Instead it will be the corner playing the force as LBz pointed out.




Here are some cut ups of the Baltimore Ravens. They're in a 3-4 but you can see the same basic concepts at work and how the roles change with different coverages. Just look at how aggressive the linebackers are. That's the one thing that's always frustrated me about Madden's defense. The linebackers don't press the LOS unless they are blitzing, or in man.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Eb9c-HAjJ5k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here's a gif of what it looks like.


Kam Chancellor flying into frame from the right of the screen is the force. Wright #50, who makes the tackle -- well, he's not spilling s**t here, he's making the tackle and Wagner #54 is playing the cutback.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Most people dont care about this. I'm a football fan and Im not too concerned about this. Much bigger things to improve imo. Not saying I would have a problem if they worked on it. I just dont think it should be a priority.

Wait. You're a football fan and you don't want the run game to look like football? Because that's basically what you would be saying if you really meant what you said. I don't think you've thought it through.

Having actual correct gap assignment not only makes the movement of the players resemble actual football, it also would go a long way toward removing game play cheese like unstoppable outside runs.

A lot of people want the game to have better OL/DL interaction, but truthfully gap assignment for the entire defense is a big part of that. I mean, just look at this stuff:



How can you not want this stuff below in Madden?

Keep in mind that all of this is going to be dictated pretty much by coverage and roles are going to change based on the direction of the run.

FORCE:
In this diagram you see the safety #26 to the strong side of the formation is playing the force. If the run bounces to the outside, his job is to attack where that arrow is pointing and turn the play back inside to his help. He doesn't necessary have to make the tackle, but he's got to make sure the run doesn't get outside of him by any means necessary.

CUTBACK:
#50's job if the run is away is to pretty much how it sounds. He has to make sure that if the run cuts back, he's there to make the play. He checks his gap at the snap, then when he sees it going away he pursues inside out. The key thing is that he can't be too aggressive and overrun the play. He can pursue hard, but he can't lose his leverage on the back's inside hip.

SPILL:
Once again that depends on the offensive play. For the sake of this diagram, let's say the offense is running a dive play to the defense's left. #51 will attack his A gap strong (the green arrow), forcing a double teaming offensive lineman to come off to get him. If it's done right he'll clog up the lane, thus spilling the ball outside to #56... and then to the force player if need be...

Now all of these roles will switch if the run goes the other way. And if the defense is in say a Cover 2 then the safety will have no run responsibility. Instead it will be the corner playing the force as LBz pointed out.




Here are some cut ups of the Baltimore Ravens. They're in a 3-4 but you can see the same basic concepts at work and how the roles change with different coverages. Just look at how aggressive the linebackers are. That's the one thing that's always frustrated me about Madden's defense. The linebackers don't press the LOS unless they are blitzing, or in man.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Eb9c-HAjJ5k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here's a gif of what it looks like.


Kam Chancellor flying into frame from the right of the screen is the force. Wright #50, who makes the tackle -- well, he's not spilling s**t here, he's making the tackle and Wagner #54 is playing the cutback.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Quick note on 1 Gap vs 2 Gap: the latter will be the direction more teams move in over the years to combat the spread run game. You see it in college with Stanford, and even Oregon became a 2 Gap 3-4 once Chip Kelly came on board as OC and started torching their 1 Gap 4-3 in practice with all of the read schemes his offense presents. So having said that, there needs to be a distinction in the game between a 3-4 where the DE lines up outside the tackle (1 Gap 3-4 Wade Phillips style) vs a 3-4 where the DE lines up head up (Eagles, Steelers, and 49ers immediately come to mind).

Just fyi, the 49ers are a 1 Gap under front almost all the time they are in their base personnel. They will do a 2 Gap front occasionally, with BOTH the RDT and LDT lining up over the tackles, but most of the time it's 1 Gap.

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/3-4-or-4-3-under/

http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/5/2/4294242/football-university-49ers-defensive-fronts-vic-fangio-3-4-nickel-4-3-under

http://s1.postimg.org/eucdbmov3/37nld.png

Notice the right RE is in between the tackle and guard. It's almost a 4-3 under with 3-4 personnel: #99 Aldon Smith is playing the roll of the Leo,#55 Amhad Brooks is playing the Sam, with #53 Navarro Bowman is in the role of the Mike and #52 Patrick Willis in the role of the Will on this play. Here Willis and Bowman are in the gaps between the T/G or C/G, rather than lined up directly over the G's as in a true 3-4.


Compare it to this, where the NT is over the C, and the RDT and LDT are directly over the T's, and the Mike and Jack are directly over the guards.

http://s13.postimg.org/ho5ukh9rb/9dedcb0995ebd2faed5bc0551deadb15_original_png_13.png

Madden says the 49ers run a "base 3-4" in the scheme section, but since when has Madden been overly trustworthy on football issues? They're wrong on that one, as the 49ers are rarely lined up in a true 3-4 front.

[LBzrule]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Good stuff Senator and ForUnto, I went to sleep. And like PSU said it would be great for them to get 1 gap vs 2 gap in the game. For instance, the Titans this year will be running a 1 gap 3-4. Vanderbilt is also running that. I'm going to see the Titans tomorrow and Vanderbilt whenever they open practice.

Wolverine there is a lot here that should answer your question. The key first is the coverage call. That's why I would recommend when people play this game they understand coverage call vs outside run might be the reason why they are getting gashed. Now I've also always been on here saying that the force player needs to actually force. For instance, the Safety in cover 3 playing the flat zone, IMO does not do a good job of playing force. Sits around too much and waits for blockers. He's not the PA Boot player so he should be charging downhill against the run if it is to his side. If it is PA well he's not the PA Boot player the CB is. But against PA, that's when he's gotta flip the hips quickly and get back.

Let me add some more. I think most of the complaints about the outside run in this game are because a lot of people want to play 2 Man Under as a base coverage against Pro, Jumbo and 2 TE sets. Well you are going to get burned if that's the case. That's why I was pretty disappointed when EA weakened zone coverage. It opened up the run game way too much. I used zone for the most part anyway though. Only went with man when I felt like the offense had to pass. The other part of getting burned is those assignments need to really be felt in the game.

Anyways, I'll end by saying this. If anyone wants to improve their Madden run defense, learn and understand zone coverage and who's supposed to be doing what. An Ebook is not going to help you. They will give you a couple of plays as "run stoppers." But these are only band-aids because once someone cracks that play you have nothing to fall back on. Build your foundation by learning zone coverage and understanding the field positioning. Also, do not be afraid to get Safeties involved.