When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

[PSUEagle]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Just fyi, the 49ers are a 1 Gap under front almost all the time they are in their base personnel. They will do a 2 Gap front occasionally, with BOTH the RDT and LDT lining up over the tackles, but most of the time it's 1 Gap.

I completely agree with you that Madden oversimplifies the 3-4 vs 4-3 issue, and you're absolutely right about the 49ers being in an Under front in those examples.

As a general statement, though, you don't have to line up in a pure 3-4 to two gap on defense. A lot of teams will do a hybrid and have some players two gap while some penetrate up front. People have pointed to the Seahawks as a modern example, but the Eagles were doing that as recently as 2008 out of an under front: we would often have our nose tackle along with the 4 Tech DE to the TE side two gap while everyone else one gap. It enabled them to keep Stewart Bradley clean at MIKE, giving him a chance to have a great year.

The Steelers are another example of a 3-4 team that lines up in an Under front often, especially when you give them two back personnel groupings on defense. And as far as the 49ers go, I just watched the first half of their week 2 game against the Seahawks last year and it looks to me like they had their strongside DE two gap based on how he played blocks that came to him.

Good stuff Senator and ForUnto, I went to sleep. And like PSU said it would be great for them to get 1 gap vs 2 gap in the game. For instance, the Titans this year will be running a 1 gap 3-4. Vanderbilt is also running that. I'm going to see the Titans tomorrow and Vanderbilt whenever they open practice.

Not to turn this into an argument thread, but are you sure those two teams are going to 1 Gap?

Vandy's new HC coach was Stanford's DC over the last few years, so I would think that he'll want to continue with that given the offenses in his conference and the personal success he had with it.

Ray Horton's been a 2 Gap guy his whole career as a DC. I haven't watched a ton of Browns and Cardinals film over the last few years, but it's definitely noticeable when I watch casually.

Great point about 2 Man under, BTW. I get a chuckle when I play the CPU (or users) and they come out in 2 Man against I Twins. Of course I'm going to get the edge every single time: in real life the primary force is the safety and he's too far away to make that play. It's why you only see that coverage on obvious passing downs. Cover 1 is a different animal as a run stopper, though: you can match up gap wise because you're inserting an extra guy into the front.

Actually, this discussion and the great posts both of you guys have made leads me to another point: there's a lot more nuance that goes into defense than just being "1 Gap vs 2 Gap" or "4-3 vs 3-4." You see defenses today do a lot of hybrid stuff on run downs so that they can get the best of both worlds: have guys on the field who can hold the point while also having guys who can penetrate and disrupt the pass.

[PSUEagle]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

LBZ, can you explain exactly who plays the force, the spill, and cutback? is that determined in the huddle? and are these concepts fundamental to each and every defense? And how does one play force, spill or cutback?

Palmer did a good job explaining some of the specifics, so I'll just answer the basics.

Force basically means the ball can not get outside of you. Depending on coverage and front, this could be anyone from a Linebacker, Corner, Safety, or even DE responsible for this. Point being, if the force player gets beat outside, the offense is going to be running down the sideline.

Spill means engage a block and force the ball to bounce. For instance, earlier I used the wrong arm example vs Gap schemes: the player doing that (usually a DE or linebacker) is "spilling" the play and forcing it to bounce. You see this technique played with teams that base out of Cover 2 (not so common anymore) or Cover 4 (extremely common at the college level). Basically it means that the player the offense is attempting to block with a fullback/pulling guard will try to dip his outside should through the pads of the guy blocking him. What this will do is create a pile and force the ball to bounce (or "spill" haha).

Cutback is what it sounds like: someone has to be responsible for for playing the backside gap if the HB runs one way and then cuts back. In a Cover 2 defense that guy is usually the MIKE, with the only exception being if the defense wants to have their nose tackle 2 gap instead (see earlier discussion).

As an aside: one reason most NFL teams pass so much (upwards of 75% for most) once they go to a three or four wide receiver personnel group is that it's really hard to run the ball from those sets against defenses that play anything but Cover 2 or 2 Man. Generally speaking, in zone schemes the ball will often cutback naturally from the original designated hole(s). So it's a problem if the defense can insert an extra guy, because it basically means the runner will cutback into an unblocked defender.

How do you solve that? All of the read plays you see in college and are beginning to see in the NFL. A lot of guys don't want to expose their QB though, so they'll stick with the I Formation and/or two TE sets where you can make sure the unblocked player is on the backside of the play, thus making him less of a factor. Generally speaking, though, it's hard to run the ball from spread sets without involving the QB in the run game, which is why the absurdly over powered suction blocking in NCAA 14/Madden 25 was so insulting: it's not anywhere as easy as those games made it look.

[LBzrule]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Not to turn this into an argument thread, but are you sure those two teams are going to 1 Gap?

Vandy's new HC coach was Stanford's DC over the last few years, so I would think that he'll want to continue with that given the offenses in his conference and the personal success he had with it.

Ray Horton's been a 2 Gap guy his whole career as a DC. I haven't watched a ton of Browns and Cardinals film over the last few years, but it's definitely noticeable when I watch casually.

Great point about 2 Man under, BTW. I get a chuckle when I play the CPU (or users) and they come out in 2 Man against I Twins. Of course I'm going to get the edge every single time: in real life the primary force is the safety and he's too far away to make that play. It's why you only see that coverage on obvious passing downs. Cover 1 is a different animal as a run stopper, though: you can match up gap wise because you're inserting an extra guy into the front.

Actually, this discussion and the great posts both of you guys have made leads me to another point: there's a lot more nuance that goes into defense than just being "1 Gap vs 2 Gap" or "4-3 vs 3-4." You see defenses today do a lot of hybrid stuff on run downs so that they can get the best of both worlds: have guys on the field who can hold the point while also having guys who can penetrate and disrupt the pass.

Per Vandy and the Titans. Watching the press conference with the players this is how they described it. Also in the spring game getting a look at the defense I saw more 1 gap than anything else, although that doesn't mean guys were playing their assignments correctly and I was not privy to blimp film.

Local paper here, which could be completely wrong btw (could be bad journalism), has said the Titans and Vandy will run the same 3-4 1 gap defense. I'll check out Titans tomorrow morning.

[Wolverines05]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

now if a defensive lineman is 2 gapping, what are his reads that tell him to go to gap left or right? and do the linebackers then have to compensate for the gap that the lineman leaves exposed?

also random... but if a dude is playing zone, and during the pass play, no one is in his zone, where should he go? i know people have complained of defenders in zone often just standing doing nothing, but if no one is in his zone, what is his responsibility?

may as well ask while im here

[Senator Palmer]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

also, gap assignments are in for defensive lineman on run plays, but not linebackers right? Their "gap" seems to be programmed solely based on their pursuit logic of the runningback i.e. no gap responsibility.

also, i know this isnt part of thread but could you explain how blockers know who to block in man blocking schemes? How does an offensive line change assignments on the fly based on defensive alignment? and how do they know who to pick up.

I'd like some elaboration on this too. For the longest time I've been hoping a developer would chime in and break down the way linebackers are programmed to function, because I was told last year before next gen's release that the defenses had gap assignments on every run play. Now me being me, I foolishly assumed that meant every defender had a responsibility (based on coverage) the way they do in real life, but looking back there was no elaboration whatsoever and as you noted, didn't seem to really apply to second and third level defenders.

In fact, last year, the linebacker play in some ways was even worse on certain runs such as power-o's and stretches. It used to be that the linebackers, while never attacking their gaps, would at least attempt to leverage the runs. On power-o's, the outside linebacker would move to the C gap, and MLB would follow to play over the top, and it actually worked to a degree because the run blocking logic was on par with the defensive logic. Last year on that same play, the Outside backer would stand there in his B gap a beat longer and wouldn't react to get outside until it was too late making it waaayyyy too easy for runs to bounce outside and with the improved run blocking logic, defenders didn't stand a chance when you played base stuff. I hated the things I had to do last year to contain simple off tackle plays.

Here is what it looked like a few years ago. Shouts out to WFColonel. I stumbled on this vid many moons ago and it helped me mimic a few real world things in the game controlling my inside linebackers.

As you see, both of these plays were successfully defensed because the run blocking logic.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/aYXETG_-DOg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is what it looked like on Madden 25 (PS4/All-Pro difficulty out of a Cover 3). This is 8 men in the box now. No way this run should be able to bounce to the outside that easily, and you shouldn't have to do anything fancy like slanting your line or run committing, this kind of run should be shut down with just a basic run fit. But because the defensive logic didn't keep pace with the offensive improvements, this type of unbalanced result is what you get, the safety and the outside linebacker just standing there waiting to be blocked. I cannot tell you how let down I was when I first saw this. All of the talk about player sense, calculations per second were nowhere to be found.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VxmEdV3s6Q0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

The introduction of these play styles would fit well in this defensive iteration that is M15.

I envision having a halo marker that signifies these different roles on D like they do on option plays for the read man and pitch man.

A knowledge of these roles on defense would also mesh well with the skills trainer and playcalling tutorials.

You could teach how to identify the force player, spiller, etc. You could teach why and how to identify the Mike Backer. You could teach how and why to identify your Weakside and Strongside backers for force and cutback/contain purposes.

On Defense this knowledge of roles can be very gainful as it pertains to user control objectives. Wheras on Offense your primary role is QB and second is RB - on Defense you can control any one player for the duration of the play post snap.

I applaud you guy for your tutelage.

It is this kind of knowledge and gameplay that I wish would apply to Madden but I am not going to beat the horse: I have a realistic perspective of how Madden is designed to play.

Keep the fight alive gents.

I feel your years of feedback is finally gaining some momentum thru the evidence of the new advanced defensive playcall enhancements and even the addition of the defensive player lock cam.

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[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

I completely agree with you that Madden oversimplifies the 3-4 vs 4-3 issue, and you're absolutely right about the 49ers being in an Under front in those examples.

As a general statement, though, you don't have to line up in a pure 3-4 to two gap on defense. A lot of teams will do a hybrid and have some players two gap while some penetrate up front. People have pointed to the Seahawks as a modern example, but the Eagles were doing that as recently as 2008 out of an under front: we would often have our nose tackle along with the 4 Tech DE to the TE side two gap while everyone else one gap. It enabled them to keep Stewart Bradley clean at MIKE, giving him a chance to have a great year.

The Steelers are another example of a 3-4 team that lines up in an Under front often, especially when you give them two back personnel groupings on defense. And as far as the 49ers go, I just watched the first half of their week 2 game against the Seahawks last year and it looks to me like they had their strongside DE two gap based on how he played blocks that came to him.

The 49ers do both from time to time (usually both on the same play). They run something similar to what they ran in the 90s (and in fact the front isn't that different from Seattle's). As for the strong side DE, he essentially plays the role of the NT in a 4-3 under front. The other DE plays the role of the 1-gap DT in a 4-3 under front. The ROLB plays the role of the Leo, and the LOLB plays the role of the Sam.

This was actually done by the 49ers in the late 90s, and in fact they had a mix of 4-3 and 3-4 personnel (Ricky Jackson played defensive end, but he has always been a linebacker). Dana Stubblefield sometimes (though not always) was on the nose playing 2 gaps, while Bryant Young was usually an up the field 1-gap rusher. Ricky Jackson alternated played the Leo.

Of course, today's 49ers play mostly in nickle, with the two DE's playing DT, although the players are good enough to do either 1-gap or 2-gap should the need arise.



EDITED TO ADd:

In fact here is Pete Carrol chiming in on those late 90 49er defenses:

http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2013/1/19/3890928/gus-bradley-defense-leo-position

"We mixed the concepts of one-gap football and two-gap football in a very unique way in San Francisco," Carroll said. "And we played great defense. To me, that was the ultimate package, and we've been able to get back to it now. It's taken us three years, really, to get to the point where we can incorporate the ideas. So, we're doing all of the things that we liked there. I thought it was the most comprehensive package of defense that I've been around. I was not able to do that at SC. I was the defensive coordinator and putting the whole thing together at SC, but our guys just couldn't handle it. It was just too much stuff, and it was too much for the coaches. So we did variations of stuff. It worked out great, but in college, we weren't capable of doing all of that. Guys couldn't learn and couldn't teach it the way we needed to. But it made sense to Gus and all of our coaches -- the background and the principles of things -- and then we've melded it together and ended up with a pretty diverse package of defense."

[Sheba2011]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

EDIT: I tweeted Clint about this to really verify that we want to promote the use of "wide 9" as a run defense. Apparently, Teryl Austin (the Lions defensive coordinator) told them that it is, in fact, used as a means to stop runs to the outside. Interesting, I've tried to find some documentation about using this defensive setup to stop the run, but was unsuccessful. I certainly believe Clint, but I was legitimately looking for ways in which it was used this this case since I know little about it. I also asked him about teams that do not employ a wide 9. He stated that reach tackles, blocks and linebacker pursuit have all been tuned to properly contain these types of runs. Sounds good, just have to see how it actually works.

The Lions have used the Wide 9 since Jim Schwartz took over, he previously used it with the Titans and we will probably see it with the Bills at some point. It's effectiveness at stopping the run is largely dependent on the personnel you have on defense. With a Wide 9 you create large running lanes, you have to have good run stopping LB's to fill those lanes and good DTs that can cover multiple gaps.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

now if a defensive lineman is 2 gapping, what are his reads that tell him to go to gap left or right? and do the linebackers then have to compensate for the gap that the lineman leaves exposed?

also random... but if a dude is playing zone, and during the pass play, no one is in his zone, where should he go? i know people have complained of defenders in zone often just standing doing nothing, but if no one is in his zone, what is his responsibility?

may as well ask while im here

When I played football (high school) as a strong safety and corner, we were told to always stay in our zone. When nothing was happening near us, we were told to keep our head on a swivel and be aware of what was going around us, but most importantly to watch the QB from our zone as he would give a tell about where he was going with the ball. Then obviously sprint to that location at an appropriate angle.

So no, we were never coached to vacate our zone just because no WRs were in it. In fact, we were told that doing that and following a receiver too long (outside of our zone) were the main reasons zone defense gets beaten. If we saw the QB looking to the right or left of us, we might cheat in that direction, so now we didn't stand still, but we were not supposed to leave our zone unless it was obvious the play was going outside of it.

The only exception I ever had at my school at SS was that in cover 3 zone if the TE took off immediately at a sprint I was to cover him man to man, but that was something unique we did (or rather, not necessarily general to cover 3).



Of course, don't read too much into that. We basically ran only four coverages and it was high school ball.

[LBzrule]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

now if a defensive lineman is 2 gapping, what are his reads that tell him to go to gap left or right?

His reads are post snap reads. He's gotta read the linemen. Who's trying to do what to him? Who's trying to get to the second level? That's going to play into how he's going to use his body. I watched the Titans do this drill at camp yesterday. I heard the DL coach a lot. "Stop getting your a$$ reached" "Don't let him reach block you" "You can't get reached" So it really depends on what the linemen are trying to do. Is someone trying to block down on the 3 technique and allow the other lineman to pull? Does the closest lineman try to reach the 3's outside shoulder? All of that comes into play. That's why I tell anyone, stop thinking QB is the only position that requires intelligence.

and do the linebackers then have to compensate for the gap that the lineman leaves exposed?

also random... but if a dude is playing zone, and during the pass play, no one is in his zone, where should he go? i know people have complained of defenders in zone often just standing doing nothing, but if no one is in his zone, what is his responsibility?

may as well ask while im here

For this last part, the biggest issue from today vs when some of us played is that teams don't spot drop anymore. They work with match up zone. And because of that then there's most likely not going to be just dropping to a spot and standing around. Your coverage is going to read the offense now and it might actually depending on what the coach wants to do, it might emphasize one player and work around that player. Let me give you an example.

Take this shot from Ole Miss @ Vandy



Rebels are in 2 x 2 personnel set. Defensively what some teams will do out of the gate is declare a READ side to this 2 x 2 set. They will generally have their FS line up on the READ side and then run certain concepts. This is where the Safety and his communication with the other defenders are important. They could go Robber, Quarters, "READ" so on and so forth, whatever their terminology is and base it all on the #2 WR (Slot) to the Read side. For instance the FS might play "Robber" in the sense of playing outside of #2 so that #1 it puts him in great position against outside runs, quick passes to the flats, screens to the HB, Bubble screens so on and so forth. There is a lot to it and this is just not enough space. Also it's pretty hard to describe without talking about what the offense is doing. I just know this, it is no longer dropping to a spot and standing there. It's dividing the offensive formation up, Declaring what side is what, numbering the WR's on each side, and whoever is the key then the zone works off that player.

In other words, it's a lot. That's why most of the time in HS all guys are taught is spot drops because coaches don't want to get too sophisticated with HS students trying to learn all of that. But once they get to college, they have no choice but to learn it.

In the shot above you can tell Vandy has declared the bottom of the screen as the Read side (might not have been Shoops terminology but same idea). Notice where the HIGH safety is lined up and the SHALLOW safety is lined up. If Ole Miss throws a bubble screen/Flanker Screen, which they did quite a bit that night, you got that Safety there to come in and support really fast and he's also there for the quick dip to the HB so on and so forth. One the other side you have a triangle between the High Safety, Outside CB and the linebacker.

Without the tape we don't know who they are keying on. Is it #2 (slot) or is it #1 (flanker)?

[Wolverines05]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

LBZ, you were one of the chosen to go to tiburon and work with them, no? did you feel that the dev team was aware how football is actually played with all its intricacies? and did you feel your feedback was ever, umm, used i guess?

im hoping they still invite you to events because you truly understand football. were you ever/are you a coach? def might not be a bad idea hah

[LBzrule]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

LBZ, you were one of the chosen to go to tiburon and work with them, no? did you feel that the dev team was aware how football is actually played with all its intricacies? and did you feel your feedback was ever, umm, used i guess?

im hoping they still invite you to events because you truly understand football. were you ever/are you a coach? def might not be a bad idea hah

Yes I've been there. When I went some of the guys they have there now was not there. But they had good guys that understood things. It's just coding things vs understanding them doesn't work out smoothly for them it seems. Feedback was implemented, just not completely in a way I liked. Some feedback was changed on the spot, but was not in the final build. That could be due to a host of things that I don't know about. All I know is when I don't see it implemented the way I like, I FEEL like I wasted my time. Not saying I did but it just FEELS that way. The game has pivotal interactions where turns can be made. I think 10 was pivotal but they didn't capitalize on it. 15 could be pivotal but they will need to capitalize. There are some things I don't think they are ever going to do due to their starting position. So I'm trying to stop expecting it.


Coaching stint was short. Wanted to move on to other things, reinvent the self since NFL was out of the picture. That said, I'm amazed with human memory. Some things stick so vividly and can be recalled even now. It's amazing.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

For this last part, the biggest issue from today vs when some of us played is that teams don't spot drop anymore. They work with match up zone. And because of that then there's most likely not going to be just dropping to a spot and standing around. Your coverage is going to read the offense now and it might actually depending on what the coach wants to do, it might emphasize one player and work around that player. Let me give you an example.

Take this shot from Ole Miss @ Vandy



Rebels are in 2 x 2 personnel set. Defensively what some teams will do out of the gate is declare a READ side to this 2 x 2 set. They will generally have their FS line up on the READ side and then run certain concepts. This is where the Safety and his communication with the other defenders are important. They could go Robber, Quarters, "READ" so on and so forth, whatever their terminology is and base it all on the #2 WR (Slot) to the Read side. For instance the FS might play "Robber" in the sense of playing outside of #2 so that #1 it puts him in great position against outside runs, quick passes to the flats, screens to the HB, Bubble screens so on and so forth. There is a lot to it and this is just not enough space. Also it's pretty hard to describe without talking about what the offense is doing. I just know this, it is no longer dropping to a spot and standing there. It's dividing the offensive formation up, Declaring what side is what, numbering the WR's on each side, and whoever is the key then the zone works off that player.

In other words, it's a lot. That's why most of the time in HS all guys are taught is spot drops because coaches don't want to get too sophisticated with HS students trying to learn all of that. But once they get to college, they have no choice but to learn it.

In the shot above you can tell Vandy has declared the bottom of the screen as the Read side (might not have been Shoops terminology but same idea). Notice where the HIGH safety is lined up and the SHALLOW safety is lined up. If Ole Miss throws a bubble screen/Flanker Screen, which they did quite a bit that night, you got that Safety there to come in and support really fast and he's also there for the quick dip to the HB so on and so forth. One the other side you have a triangle between the High Safety, Outside CB and the linebacker.

Without the tape we don't know who they are keying on. Is it #2 (slot) or is it #1 (flanker)?

Hey we actually did something like pre-snap reads with our defense, but nothing too drastic. If the TE was the last guy on my side of the field, in a cover 3 zone my job was cover the flat. In other instances in the same coverage, if he ran down the seam at the snap, I was to cover him man to man also. Basically when we ran cover 3 the SS either played a spot zone or man covered the TE.

Anyone else do that or something similar in their high school?

[GiantBlue76]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

The Lions have used the Wide 9 since Jim Schwartz took over, he previously used it with the Titans and we will probably see it with the Bills at some point. It's effectiveness at stopping the run is largely dependent on the personnel you have on defense. With a Wide 9 you create large running lanes, you have to have good run stopping LB's to fill those lanes and good DTs that can cover multiple gaps.

That's exactly my point. Wide 9 is not a formation that is specifically used to stop the run.

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[hanzsomehanz]

Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

That's exactly my point. Wide 9 is not a formation that is specifically used to stop the run.

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I understood wide9 alignments to be used against empty back spread offenses and on gautanteed pass downs.

I do not see why you would use it as a primary run stuff scheme albeit I see a handful of schemes that work in Madden that do not translate to real life.

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