Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

It is his second post, the one to me, where he takes the time to make shots; he also at the same time slides in some positive comments, but it had an overall backhand feel to just slam Dan for a dislike of his character..

Anyone, I do not want a fight with you Kehlis; this has gotten way off topic and gone too far...

I wasn't trying to take shots at anyone.
I interpreted your post to mean shut up kid you don't know what you are talking about.

But I am not sure how you thought I was slamming Dan for dislike of his character.

I don't have any idea who or who is not taking anything personally. Goodness. I'm certainly not.

I was very clear that he merely suggested it. He never said that was the sticking point to everything.

I was just sharing a different opinion to the comment that said, You aren't getting the job.

I don't think anyone can say he's not getting a job that for sure without a "IMO" being used. Just seemed a little harsh.

So just to be clear. I can share a different opinion on this site without being labeled as "taking something personally"? I think reading into someone's feelings based on one response is a bit much. IMO.

Granted, I should have said probably not getting the job. I thought it was a given that it was only my opinion.

[charter04]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Fair enough. I shouldn't have said that but it just seemed to me that you guys were defending him when it really wasn't necessary because no one said anything negative about him.

I very well could have been wrong.

It's all good. Dan is a grown man like me. He can defend himself.

let's just move on. lol

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

SOrry I made the initial comment; I didn't think it would start such a stir...I was merely curious how someone would know that another person wouldn't get a job; I really considered that ggsimmonds may have been an employee of EA/Tiburon...

How about we leave it as the fault of the internet because emotions and tone and such do not travel through texts...

- Peace..

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

None.

Sorry if it offends you or causes you to get defensive, but my guess is that if he tells EA that the first thing he would do is get rid of the overall, they probably will not hire him.

Sorry you don't like it, but it goes against their design vision.

Also I personally would not hire him because of this:
"FBG Ratings is a one man show"
"Let the users "scout" their team like real GMs and coaches do based upon the TRAITS and PRODUCTION of their players."

My perspective is that on one hand he is saying my way or not at all, i.e. he does the ratings as he sees fit and will not alter his system to accommodate marketing or whoever. Sure that is fine.
But he then steps outside of ratings and suggests that the CFM guys do their thing differently.

So he is not keen on people giving him outside input but he is already doing that himself?

Look it is nothing against him or the ratings, but if I was EA I would not be too eager to hire him. ( I personally feel that the changes he suggests are good ones, but it is not about my opinion. Try to put yourself into EA's shoes)

First and foremost, I stated that I would SUGGEST to do away with the overall IF they bring me in. That means that they would have to hire me FIRST then listen to my suggestion.

The website is a one man show. I personally get the data then rate all of the players using the same source material and methodology. It doesn't NEED more than one person to run when you get great source material. All it requires is someone who is more than capable to interpret and interpolate the source data into ratings that are of use in the video game. If EA wanted, they could go to any real scouting department and get their data to put into the game. However, then those entities would be giving up their information to the public where anyone can see it. That eliminates their edge as a business. Instead, my model utilizes some inside information to bring that data to light anonymously. The people supplying the data don't get outted and the people who want real data driving their Madden ratings get it. Everyone wins.

What EA does not have is the source material that is as valid as what I can provide. Then, they still need someone to run the nuts and bolts of actually rating the players based on that data. It is not as easy as it sounds. I can do it because I developed the methodology - nobody knows it better than me. By hiring me, they kill two birds with one stone. They get great data that is valid and they get the guy who knows how to convert that data into Madden ratings. You think that they wouldn't hire me because I would suggest something that I could make a valid argument for but could very well be nixed without issue? Seems like a pretty steep price for making a suggestion that I wouldn't even bring up until AFTER the paperwork is signed.

It is my firm belief that the ratings drive everything on the field. Look at what FBG Ratings can do even in a less than perfect environment for Madden 15. Read some of those reviews about how it makes the gameplay better. If the ratings didn't matter, people would never have noticed a difference or clamored for them. One thing that I made abundantly clear in 2011 was that I would NOT sacrifice the sanctity of the system as by definition, it would make that system break the universal methodology used to rate ALL PLAYERS WITHOUT BIAS.

EA chose in 2011 to forgo my simple request of making sure that no suit would overrule any rating that I publish so that methodology would stay intact. Fast forward 4 years, and now THEY CONTACT ME. I never applied for a position. I never called anyone. I didn't even know that Donny resigned until I got the email from Rex Dickson himself. They contacted me first...almost immediately after Donny announced his resignation on Twitter. What does THAT tell you? Either they are interested in letting me come in to make some real changes and influence this process, or they are trying to pump me for information. Either way, I find out on Monday, so let's see how serious they really are about making this game better.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

It is the shortness and way you worded your post. Like you were trying to swat me down or something.
In my reply I specifically say it is not about my views on Dan's ratings and you reply that it sounds like I am offended by Dan. Awesome.

I should not have any more EA insight than anyone else here. We all see the same things. The way they make ratings reveals a big deal with their top 10 lists and such. Look back at the CFM details. I think it was a stream where they discussed it. They added in the ability to know the overall of a draft pick immediately after selection. They said it will be cool to have guys ask you during the draft "what was his overall?"

Madden likes the overall rating. Abolishing that would require a drastic change in their mindset. Hence my initial comment.

Look I will explicitly state this to save from confusion: I personally would like for the overall rating to be hidden. I'm all for it. I do not think EA is interested in doing that.

The real funny thing is that I have over 2000 rookies already rated on draft night....EA used to have 32, so that stuff can continue. Think about an EA site where every player's rating is present at the moment they are drafted...all 256 of them.

The overall thing is just a suggestion and continuing with it doesn't change any of the stuff I do. I just hate having to use that darn OVR as a box within I have to work. It seems to take away from how it should really be done.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I would love the overall hidden....

I would even love the measurables hidden; SPD, ACC, STR, etc.. Those ratings that could be represented with 40 times, and split times and bench presses..etc..

[RogueHominid]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I'd be shocked if the OVR being hidden were even on the table. Much more simulation-oriented sports games than Madden still haven't gone away from the OVR.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I would love the overall hidden....

I would even love the measurables hidden; SPD, ACC, STR, etc.. Those ratings that could be represented with 40 times, and split times and bench presses..etc..

We are on the same page here. The scouting data doesn't use a grading scale for measureables. They use the measureables themselves. A player profile will have all of the measurables listed first, then the grades on the 0.0-5.0 scale second, for each position-dependent skill. So a guy like A.A. Ron Rodgers would have a profile like this:

A.A. Ron Rodgers
QB
Butte Junior College
74in
222lbs

10: 1.69
20: 2.77
40: 4.71
Vertical: 34.5
Broad: 110
Shuttle: 4.32
Cone: 7.12
Bench: 340
Squat: 400
Clean: 280

Arm Strength: 2.9
Footwork/Scrambling: 1.2
0-10 Accuracy: 2.6
10-25 Accuracy: 3.3
>25 Accuracy: 3.2
Toughness/Leadership: 3.9
Reads: 2.9
Timely Release: 2.2
Ball Security: 1.3
Special Teams:
Injury: 0.3

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

We are on the same page here. The scouting data doesn't use a grading scale for measureables. They use the measureables themselves. A player profile will have all of the measurables listed first, then the grades on the 0.0-5.0 scale second, for each position-dependent skill. So a guy like A.A. Ron Rodgers would have a profile like this:

A.A. Ron Rodgers
QB
Butte Junior College
74in
222lbs

10: 1.69
20: 2.77
40: 4.71
Vertical: 34.5
Broad: 110
Shuttle: 4.32
Cone: 7.12
Bench: 340
Squat: 400
Clean: 280

Arm Strength: 2.9
Footwork/Scrambling: 1.2
0-10 Accuracy: 2.6
10-25 Accuracy: 3.3
>25 Accuracy: 3.2
Toughness/Leadership: 3.9
Reads: 2.9
Timely Release: 2.2
Ball Security: 1.3
Special Teams:
Injury: 0.3

This is the stuff I really like.... I would also like to have an "intelligent" rating that would actually be used in CFM to determine how well a player learns and/or progresses...Of course I am thinking this is how to put in the Wonderlic scores...

I like this article on the quality of the Wonderlic and the significance of intelligence: http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/nfl.htm

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

First and foremost, I stated that I would SUGGEST to do away with the overall IF they bring me in. That means that they would have to hire me FIRST then listen to my suggestion.

The website is a one man show. I personally get the data then rate all of the players using the same source material and methodology. It doesn't NEED more than one person to run when you get great source material. All it requires is someone who is more than capable to interpret and interpolate the source data into ratings that are of use in the video game. If EA wanted, they could go to any real scouting department and get their data to put into the game. However, then those entities would be giving up their information to the public where anyone can see it. That eliminates their edge as a business. Instead, my model utilizes some inside information to bring that data to light anonymously. The people supplying the data don't get outted and the people who want real data driving their Madden ratings get it. Everyone wins.

What EA does not have is the source material that is as valid as what I can provide. Then, they still need someone to run the nuts and bolts of actually rating the players based on that data. It is not as easy as it sounds. I can do it because I developed the methodology - nobody knows it better than me. By hiring me, they kill two birds with one stone. They get great data that is valid and they get the guy who knows how to convert that data into Madden ratings. You think that they wouldn't hire me because I would suggest something that I could make a valid argument for but could very well be nixed without issue? Seems like a pretty steep price for making a suggestion that I wouldn't even bring up until AFTER the paperwork is signed.

It is my firm belief that the ratings drive everything on the field. Look at what FBG Ratings can do even in a less than perfect environment for Madden 15. Read some of those reviews about how it makes the gameplay better. If the ratings didn't matter, people would never have noticed a difference or clamored for them. One thing that I made abundantly clear in 2011 was that I would NOT sacrifice the sanctity of the system as by definition, it would make that system break the universal methodology used to rate ALL PLAYERS WITHOUT BIAS.

EA chose in 2011 to forgo my simple request of making sure that no suit would overrule any rating that I publish so that methodology would stay intact. Fast forward 4 years, and now THEY CONTACT ME. I never applied for a position. I never called anyone. I didn't even know that Donny resigned until I got the email from Rex Dickson himself. They contacted me first...almost immediately after Donny announced his resignation on Twitter. What does THAT tell you? Either they are interested in letting me come in to make some real changes and influence this process, or they are trying to pump me for information. Either way, I find out on Monday, so let's see how serious they really are about making this game better.

I'm aware of how the rating work. You and I have had lengthy discussions in the past about it (I really should get a avatar lol).

I know about the 2011 history. That was part of why I am skeptical of the current situation. However, I did not know the recent communication came from Rex. That does change things somewhat as I do believe Rex wants what we want.

To clarify, it is not simply that I think they would not hire you over a single suggestion. I think they will not hire you because of differences in vision. I think it may be incompatible. They use ratings as a marketing tool and you are very much opposed to that. In a interview if they ask you a question and your response is that the first thing you would do is that suggestion, I don't know how well that would go over. The first meeting did not go well because of difference in philosophy and I expect that to be the current case.

Also from our past conversations I do wonder about any possible legal obstacles. I know you have a NDA agreement with the source of your data, I do wonder how using that data for profit could possibly complicate things. Correct me if I am wrong, but the relationship currently is that they provide you with data for what amounts to be a hobby. By you entering into a business relationship with EA wouldn't that change your relationship with the source?

To your question about what their contacting you tells me, well absolutely nothing. We don't know how many other people they contacted or how long they have known Donny would be leaving. They could just be doing their due diligence, maybe Rex personally likes what you bring to the table so is trying to convince the higher ups to give it another go. It could be many things.

I am not sure on one thing you said. I've bolded the relevant part of your post. Why would that necessitate anything going public? EA could approach a scouting company similar to what you have, and convert the raw data to ratings in house without the public knowing the source. Madden could do it just like you do. And absolutely do not take this the wrong way, but there is nothing special about your methodology if you are doing it right. If someone has the outlay and the source data they should be able to find your methodology. Its all about the distribution. That is not to take away what you do, but good statistics is easily repeatable.

"The overall thing is just a suggestion and continuing with it doesn't change any of the stuff I do. I just hate having to use that darn OVR as a box within I have to work. It seems to take away from how it should really be done"
I agree with this, I just don't know that EA sports does. And I think this would be a very significant difference in philosophy. But Rex wasn't there in 2011, that could change a lot. We will see

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

This is the stuff I really like.... I would also like to have an "intelligent" rating that would actually be used in CFM to determine how well a player learns and/or progresses...Of course I am thinking this is how to put in the Wonderlic scores...

I like this article on the quality of the Wonderlic and the significance of intelligence: http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/nfl.htm

It all depends on the system you use for scouting. National and BLESTO have different categories and numbering systems. National goes from 10.0 (best) to 2.4 (medical/injured). BLESTO's scale goes in the opposite direction from 1.0 (best) to 2.40 (medical/injured). Dave Thomas of NFLDS utilizes a 0.0 (best) to 5.0 (medical/injured) scale. Every team also has their own scale. The data I have is from a 5.0 (best) to 0.0 (worst) scale but doesn't account for medical/injured in individual attributes. Some others do. So many ways to slice it up.

Then you have the question of how many attributes to use. Dave Thomas uses 15 for each position. My source uses 10. They all say just about the same thing, but some are just more detailed than others. Here is how Dave Thomas graded A.A. Ron Rodgers out of college in the qualitative portion of the report for example:

Overall Grade: 1.23

Athletic Ability: 1.2
Football Sense: 1.4
Character: 1.3
Competitiveness: 1.3
Work Habits: 1.2
General Report Average: 1.28

Set Up: 1.2
Reading Defenses: 1.3
Release: 1.2
Arm Strength: 1.1
Accuracy: 1.1
Touch: 1.2
Poise: 1.4
Leadership: 1.3
Pocket Movement: 1.2
Scrambling Ability: 1.2
Athletic Report Average: 1.22

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

It all depends on the system you use for scouting. National and BLESTO have different categories and numbering systems. National goes from 10.0 (best) to 2.4 (medical/injured). BLESTO's scale goes in the opposite direction from 1.0 (best) to 2.40 (medical/injured). Dave Thomas of NFLDS utilizes a 0.0 (best) to 5.0 (medical/injured) scale. Every team also has their own scale. The data I have is from a 5.0 (best) to 0.0 (worst) scale but doesn't account for medical/injured in individual attributes. Some others do. So many ways to slice it up.

Then you have the question of how many attributes to use. Dave Thomas uses 15 for each position. My source uses 10. They all say just about the same thing, but some are just more detailed than others. Here is how Dave Thomas graded A.A. Ron Rodgers out of college in the qualitative portion of the report for example:

Overall Grade: 1.23

Athletic Ability: 1.2
Football Sense: 1.4
Character: 1.3
Competitiveness: 1.3
Work Habits: 1.2
General Report Average: 1.28

Set Up: 1.2
Reading Defenses: 1.3
Release: 1.2
Arm Strength: 1.1
Accuracy: 1.1
Touch: 1.2
Poise: 1.4
Leadership: 1.3
Pocket Movement: 1.2
Scrambling Ability: 1.2
Athletic Report Average: 1.22

That is really awesome stuff; I had no idea it got that indepth..I appreciate you taking the time to show me a bit of the system and how it works..

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I'm aware of how the rating work. You and I have had lengthy discussions in the past about it (I really should get a avatar lol).

I know about the 2011 history. That was part of why I am skeptical of the current situation. However, I did not know the recent communication came from Rex. That does change things somewhat as I do believe Rex wants what we want.

To clarify, it is not simply that I think they would not hire you over a single suggestion. I think they will not hire you because of differences in vision. I think it may be incompatible. They use ratings as a marketing tool and you are very much opposed to that. In a interview if they ask you a question and your response is that the first thing you would do is that suggestion, I don't know how well that would go over. The first meeting did not go well because of difference in philosophy and I expect that to be the current case.

Also from our past conversations I do wonder about any possible legal obstacles. I know you have a NDA agreement with the source of your data, I do wonder how using that data for profit could possibly complicate things. Correct me if I am wrong, but the relationship currently is that they provide you with data for what amounts to be a hobby. By you entering into a business relationship with EA wouldn't that change your relationship with the source?

To your question about what their contacting you tells me, well absolutely nothing. We don't know how many other people they contacted or how long they have known Donny would be leaving. They could just be doing their due diligence, maybe Rex personally likes what you bring to the table so is trying to convince the higher ups to give it another go. It could be many things.

I am not sure on one thing you said. I've bolded the relevant part of your post. Why would that necessitate anything going public? EA could approach a scouting company similar to what you have, and convert the raw data to ratings in house without the public knowing the source. Madden could do it just like you do. And absolutely do not take this the wrong way, but there is nothing special about your methodology if you are doing it right. If someone has the outlay and the source data they should be able to find your methodology. Its all about the distribution. That is not to take away what you do, but good statistics is easily repeatable.

"The overall thing is just a suggestion and continuing with it doesn't change any of the stuff I do. I just hate having to use that darn OVR as a box within I have to work. It seems to take away from how it should really be done"
I agree with this, I just don't know that EA sports does. And I think this would be a very significant difference in philosophy. But Rex wasn't there in 2011, that could change a lot. We will see

That first meeting was pre-Rex. Keep that in mind. I believe he came in on the M13 cycle.

I spoke with the people I had to regarding the source materials yesterday. I have full permission to proceed without any legal recourse from them. In fact, they are supporting this...heavily.

EA could very well get McShay or someone at Scouts, Inc. to do this for them, and honestly, that jives fine with me. The whole point is that they need something better than opinion from a guy who was never a scout at any level driving their ratings. Where they get it from doesn't matter so long as they are reputable and their methodology is sound.

You are correct in assuming that the source material is the only thing that makes my site work. That is true. However, if it was simple to do this correctly off the bat, then it wouldn't have taken me all the time it has to get the ratings to the point where they are today. I had numerous outside consultants on this project. A few of which have advanced degrees (MS's, PhD's, etc) in fields that relate to the subject matter. That stuff matters and luckily I got all of it free of charge.

EA can very easily throw money at this and hire a scouting agency and a guy with a PhD in statistical analysis or whatever, but that will cost them. That type of expertise is not cheap. So once again, this all goes back to what EA wants to do. Do they want to really make a better game or do they want to just sell games that are shells of themselves year after year? I don't know the answer to that...yet. In 2011, it was all about the marketing and the money, baby! I doubt that has changed in the 4 years since, but who knows. It's worth a shot though, isn't it?

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Dan,

I get how you get your data and rate areas such as speed, acceleration, agility, footwork, strength, arm strength, qb pass accuracy for deep, medium, and short passes, etc. I'm curious how you come up with things such as awareness, man coverage vs zone coverage, route running, spectacular catch, etc?

As a person who applied all your rating into every team for madden 15 and saw what a difference maker it was I hope you get the job.

I'd have to agree with ggsimmons however. If it were me I'm not sure I'd be posting in a public forum about this or that before a big interview. I know the devs see this stuff and not sure they would like the my way or highway approach. I'd be racking my brain to think outside the box to come up with ways the 2 of you could co exist where everyone wins from you, EA, madden, and us gamers. They reached out to you before and it didn't work out and I'm not sure your stance has changed much. I understand you simply said you would suggest this or that but I'd get foot in door, earn your stripes, then after earning trust share a game changing vision. Maybe small steps of just getting accurate speed, strength, agility, acceleration, footwork, qb accuracy, qb arm strength, etc to start would be a great step while still giving them what they want with overalls, etc... Then lose the overalls later potentially... Idk to me that would be a huge start and game changer. To me some of the other areas I listed above seem to be all subjective and based on eye tests or opinion which still factor into overall ratings. But the lower speed and acceleration ratings in itself changed the game for the better animation wise and beyond.

Again, I wish you luck and hope you get it but i do think a my way or highway is the wrong approach. It's a give and take and I think if approached and delivered right it could be a win win all the way around. You don't want to be like the Lakers and there bad pitch to LaMarcus Aldridge:-)

On a different note why is EA so opposed to lowering and scaling ratings? I mean EA does it with FIFA where messi and Ronaldo I think are best players at 92-93 respectively. Why do they get it and madden doesn't? Same company...

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Dan,

I get how you get your data and rate areas such as speed, acceleration, agility, footwork, strength, arm strength, qb pass accuracy for deep, medium, and short passes, etc. I'm curious how you come up with things such as awareness, man coverage vs zone coverage, route running, spectacular catch, etc?

As a person who applied all your rating into every team for madden 15 and saw what a difference maker it was I hope you get the job.

I'd have to agree with ggsimmons however. If it were me I'm not sure I'd be posting in a public forum about this or that before a big interview. I know the devs see this stuff and not sure they would like the my way or highway approach. I'd be racking my brain to think outside the box to come up with ways the 2 of you could co exist where everyone wins from you, EA, madden, and us gamers. They reached out to you before and it didn't work out and I'm not sure your stance has changed much. I understand you simply said you would suggest this or that but I'd get foot in door, earn your stripes, then after earning trust share a game changing vision. Maybe small steps of just getting accurate speed, strength, agility, acceleration, footwork, qb accuracy, qb arm strength, etc to start would be a great step while still giving them what they want with overalls, etc... Then lose the overalls later potentially... Idk to me that would be a huge start and game changer. To me some of the other areas I listed above seem to be all subjective and based on eye tests or opinion which still factor into overall ratings. But the lower speed and acceleration ratings in itself changed the game for the better animation wise and beyond.

Again, I wish you luck and hope you get it but i do think a my way or highway is the wrong approach. It's a give and take and I think if approached and delivered right it could be a win win all the way around. You don't want to be like the Lakers and there bad pitch to LaMarcus Aldridge:-)

On a different note why is EA so opposed to lowering and scaling ratings? I mean EA does it with FIFA where messi and Ronaldo I think are best players at 92-93 respectively. Why do they get it and madden doesn't? Same company...

Personally, I feel like this is all part of a healthy discussion. If the devs come on here and read all this, that's great! This is nothing different from what I would say to any of them in person. That is just the type of person I am. I stick to my guns on certain things. Other things I can let go. I pick my battles...carefully.

The failure to reach an agreement with EA in 2011 didn't stop me from continuing my website then, and it wouldn't now. So to me, I may as well just be myself, say what I believe to be correct, and see if they buy in. I would hold no ill will toward EA if it doesn't work out. It won't stop me from doing my thing, and it won't stop them from doing theirs.

The only reason I would do anything is to make the game better. If they aren't interested, that's fine, but then at least I know where they stand, much like in 2011. They don't need to use my stuff to make this game better, but it might help. Nobody knows for sure.