Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

[Yukon46]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

My take on it is that the two are not incompatible. There is no inherent conflict in creating realistic gameplay while "compressing" or manipulating team ratings.

The more interesting bit was about increasing the spread of player ratings. That does seem to contradict the idea of competitive gameplay. I'm not sure how they could increase the gap while maintaining parity.


The fact that X amount of players were rated 90 in speed does not really matter. It is only about the scale.

If they take your advice and alter the scale there would be no changes in gameplay. That is, if they did it uniformly and without bias. They tend not to do that though, good players tend to become faster (or stronger, you get the idea) and underperformers drop speed.

The point is that we view 90+ as being great. Madden says 90+ is good/needed for positions.

What I would like to see, and Dan you may know the answer to this, is their ratings ordinal or interval? Is the difference in gameplay the same between 70-75 as it is between 90-95? Or does the difference increase exponentially?

Well it matters in the sense that to EA a 90 rating in speed equals a player running a 4.42 40 yard dash.

Having 460 players running under a 4.42 is not realistic, only about 175 players in the NFL have run under that time.

And the over inflation of speed goes beyond the 90 rated players.....

So when in reality you should have about 5-10 Running Backs with a 90+ speed rating.... you get 35.

I dont want them to alter the scale, I want the scale to be realistic.... this in itself will lead to more realistic gameplay.

[jerwoods]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

All they need to do is get real data and mimic the statistical distribution of that data. When you do that, you find out some very interesting things about your population of NFL players. Like how if you use the same methodology for every attribute, you find that NFL player have an average SPD of 68 (if you set the best to 99 and the worst to 1) and an average ACC of 65. Madden right now has an average SPD closer to 76 and ACC closer to 83. However, in their defense, I don't think they are using the data they need to use.

if they want to look players picking up and playing the game right off Madden 2000 was the closest thing very balened game it was a game so good u could play with default settings and the run game was near perfect

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I think the people at EA need to grab one of the copies of rosters using Dan's ratings and see how well they play....There is a PS4 and Xbox One version here in the Roster section; they give directions on how to find them in the Madden share system...

[kehlis]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Dan,

Did you broach the topic of if you would be able to continue doing what you do (with your rosters, your site, etc.) if you agreed to either consult with them or even get hired by them?

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

So every year when the game first releases and the overall team ratings basically range from 72-92, are they bumping up the lower teams when they really should be in the low 60's? or 50's? Are they making sure that every teams has a certain number of players with high ratings in every category? I'm trying to get a sense of what else "competitive gameplay" could entail.

I was pretty sure that the team overalls were just an arbitrary number Donny though the team deserved and not determined by a calculation using the roster.

Well it matters in the sense that to EA a 90 rating in speed equals a player running a 4.42 40 yard dash.

Having 460 players running under a 4.42 is not realistic, only about 175 players in the NFL have run under that time.

And the over inflation of speed goes beyond the 90 rated players.....

So when in reality you should have about 5-10 Running Backs with a 90+ speed rating.... you get 35.

I dont want them to alter the scale, I want the scale to be realistic.... this in itself will lead to more realistic gameplay.

We are basically saying the same thing, I'm probably just being a bit pedantic.

Establishing 90 overall as being equal to a 4.42 40 time is scale. There is nothing realistic or unrealistic about that though. It is arbitrary. The problem you and I both seem to have is that EA does not follow the scale they seem to have set up.

As Dan points out, the distribution is key. Makes little difference (it does matter to an extent) what point you decide should be the benchmark.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I was pretty sure that the team overalls were just an arbitrary number Donny though the team deserved and not determined by a calculation using the roster.

We are basically saying the same thing, I'm probably just being a bit pedantic.

Establishing 90 overall as being equal to a 4.42 40 time is scale. There is nothing realistic or unrealistic about that though. It is arbitrary. The problem you and I both seem to have is that EA does not follow the scale they seem to have set up.

As Dan points out, the distribution is key. Makes little difference (it does matter to an extent) what point you decide should be the benchmark.

All there needs to be is a benchmark, and then have everything else fall in line from there...

The one issue is, anyone can setup a 40 yard dash in practice mode, as I have done too, and find out what constitutes a certain 40 time...

One thing is for sure, even if a 40 time is correct, acceleration is way off in Madden...All players accelerate too fast, within the first 5 yards all players are at full speed, but split times say that shouldn't be so..

[bucky60]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

The fact that realism and authenticity was 2nd on that list should answer your question.

That's discouraging.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

That's discouraging.

What is even more discouraging is the fact that, in settings, there is an option for "even play" thus suggesting that ratings can be altered for equal teams...

Seems to me, that equal play option can be applied to any ratings, and thus ratings can be realistic to the scouting data of players, and then for competition online play, they can just use the "even play" option..then let the rest of us play with realistic rated player teams..

Cause for the life of me, why have an equal play option, when all the rosters are rated to be equal competition to begin with?

[JPBeBeast]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Is something like 2 settings arcade/simulation out of the question. Include a pop up stating what would change ( disparity in ratings, slower gameplay, higher fatigue etc)

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

All they need to do is get real data and mimic the statistical distribution of that data. When you do that, you find out some very interesting things about your population of NFL players. Like how if you use the same methodology for every attribute, you find that NFL player have an average SPD of 68 (if you set the best to 99 and the worst to 1) and an average ACC of 65. Madden right now has an average SPD closer to 76 and ACC closer to 83. However, in their defense, I don't think they are using the data they need to use.

This is the stuff that interests me and we've talked about before.

Madden does not use a 1 to 99 though. Doesn't it use a 25-99 scale that is heavily left-skewed?

How do the standard deviations look? I would think bigger in your data but smaller in Madden? Almost to be expected with the difference in range.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I wonder if this emphasis on "competitiveness" over realism is a good part of the reason sliders and a lot of ratings don't seem to work or are more or less meaningless. This is really frustrating to hear but I guess I'm not all that surprised. I think there's much better ways to go about making the game competitive that doesn't sacrifice realism.

[mestevo]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I'd wonder how far apart #1 and #2 are is all.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Well it matters in the sense that to EA a 90 rating in speed equals a player running a 4.42 40 yard dash.

Having 460 players running under a 4.42 is not realistic, only about 175 players in the NFL have run under that time.

And the over inflation of speed goes beyond the 90 rated players.....

So when in reality you should have about 5-10 Running Backs with a 90+ speed rating.... you get 35.

I dont want them to alter the scale, I want the scale to be realistic.... this in itself will lead to more realistic gameplay.

Since 1996, there have been 1027 eligible players that have posted a 4.42 or better. That is in a population of over 30,000 NFL eligible players, meaning that about only 3% run that fast in a 40. However, if you set the best time to 99 and the worst to 1, you find that a true 90 should be a 4.36. However, we all know that you can't just use the 40 time to calculate speed. The best way to do this is to map the run using the splits for each player and find the maximum velocity.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Dan,

Did you broach the topic of if you would be able to continue doing what you do (with your rosters, your site, etc.) if you agreed to either consult with them or even get hired by them?

They asked me what my ideal involvement would be. I told them that being an outside consultant would be best. Reason being is that I could keep my intellectual property. I told that no matter what route they take, I will continue my site. If they bring me in to consult or even flat out provide their ratings, it would have to be on a long-term contract (4-5 years) so I can ensure that it is worth my time. The other thing I will need is to work with the guys who do the mechanics of the motion for the game. I have an amazing idea to literally make every player run EXACTLY at the same acceleration and speed they would run in real life. Each player would run only like themselves, and it may be pretty easy program, giving you a near infinite number of possible acceleration/speed combinations for just about any player...ever.

I didn't discuss this in detail, however, but if they bring me in, it will be mentioned and could change straight line player movement in Madden forever. I am THAT confident. The best part - all based on REAL data.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

This is the stuff that interests me and we've talked about before.

Madden does not use a 1 to 99 though. Doesn't it use a 25-99 scale that is heavily left-skewed?

How do the standard deviations look? I would think bigger in your data but smaller in Madden? Almost to be expected with the difference in range.

The difference in standard deviation from the real population to Madden is statistically significant. Madden's ratings are top-heavy in every category...alarmingly. Meanwhile, the data is seemingly bottom heavy, in every category. That means that for either overalls or individual attributes, Madden thinks most players are closer to 99 than to 1 and the data suggests that most players are closer to 1 than 99, making elite players more rare.