Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

[Yukon46]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

The question I have for this whole topic is....

Can we still do something to Madden 16's ratings ?
And CFM's future ratings ?

I just want the ratings to make Sense !!!

Can we get the players moving at the proper Speeds on the base roster... and have the CFM draft classes match that model built off the Base roster ???

Because of Madden's history of over-speeding...I have serious doubt this has changed to the level it should be. Which in turn tells me the future draftees in CFM's will still be built on that over-speeded Base roster model....and the cycle continues.

Now I am sure you have already determined what all the combine numbers will result into what ratings for incoming draftees.

SO I am asking the EA Dev's...

Did you take that scale and apply it completely to the base roster ?

Then use the %totals from the new base roster as the model for creating draftees ?

The point being....
If the scale says a 4.50 equals 86 speed.......there cant be 50 guys on the base roster who ran a 4.50 that have an 89 speed.

If you get the Physical Ratings on point.... that alone will make gameplay better, and will even lower some overall ratings in the process.

These are the things that always dont make sense in the Madden rosters...if everyone is rated properly for their physical ratings, it will balance out.


Can something like this be done to Madden 16 ?

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

The question I have for this whole topic is....

Can we still do something to Madden 16's ratings ?
And CFM's future ratings ?

I just want the ratings to make Sense !!!

Can we get the players moving at the proper Speeds on the base roster... and have the CFM draft classes match that model built off the Base roster ???

Because of Madden's history of over-speeding...I have serious doubt this has changed to the level it should be. Which in turn tells me the future draftees in CFM's will still be built on that over-speeded Base roster model....and the cycle continues.

Now I am sure you have already determined what all the combine numbers will result into what ratings for incoming draftees.

SO I am asking the EA Dev's...

Did you take that scale and apply it completely to the base roster ?

Then use the %totals from the new base roster as the model for creating draftees ?

The point being....
If the scale says a 4.50 equals 86 speed.......there cant be 50 guys on the base roster who ran a 4.50 that have an 89 speed.

If you get the Physical Ratings on point.... that alone will make gameplay better, and will even lower some overall ratings in the process.

These are the things that always dont make sense in the Madden rosters...if everyone is rated properly for their physical ratings, it will balance out.


Can something like this be done to Madden 16 ?

If you REALLY want accurate ratings for SPEED (maximum velocity) and ACCELERATION (the time it takes for any player to get to their maximum velocity), you have to BREAK the perception that the 40 time = SPEED in the first place. I have pointed out in several threads on this site, seemingly for years now, that you CANNOT simply use the 40 time to equate to speed. In reality, it doesn't work that way. The only way you can do this with the proper methodology that makes scientific sense (in terms of proper bio mechanics and projectile motion) is to use the split times to accurately determine the PATH in which every individual player runs. This way, every player can have their own rate of acceleration and their own top velocity. It uses cubic functions which can be easily programmed into the game. They already have a couple dozen different acceleration models in the game, but what they really need is just ONE EQUATION. Using this, every player will accelerate the way they are supposed to, get up to their proper top-end speed, and then begin to decelerate at the rate they are supposed to.

This is the best way to do SPD and ACC in Madden.

[Yukon46]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

If you REALLY want accurate ratings for SPEED (maximum velocity) and ACCELERATION (the time it takes for any player to get to their maximum velocity), you have to BREAK the perception that the 40 time = SPEED in the first place. I have pointed out in several threads on this site, seemingly for years now, that you CANNOT simply use the 40 time to equate to speed. In reality, it doesn't work that way. The only way you can do this with the proper methodology that makes scientific sense (in terms of proper bio mechanics and projectile motion) is to use the split times to accurately determine the PATH in which every individual player runs. This way, every player can have their own rate of acceleration and their own top velocity. It uses cubic functions which can be easily programmed into the game. They already have a couple dozen different acceleration models in the game, but what they really need is just ONE EQUATION. Using this, every player will accelerate the way they are supposed to, get up to their proper top-end speed, and then begin to decelerate at the rate they are supposed to.

This is the best way to do SPD and ACC in Madden.

Until this "IS" what is used in Madden, what is the point of this argument ?

Can you agree Madden rates too many players, too fast ?

Can you agree that if all players were given what I suggested here the game play would be better from what it is without doing it ?

I am just trying have Madden rating make sense with what I know they have traditionally used as their System.


I understand you seem to have a better system... but it is not in Madden 16.

Then let's work on getting something different into Madden 17.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Until this "IS" what is used in Madden, what is the point of this argument ?

Can you agree Madden rates too many players, too fast ?

Can you agree that if all players were given what I suggested here the game play would be better from what it is without doing it ?

I am just trying have Madden rating make sense with what I know they have traditionally used as their System.


I understand you seem to have a better system... but it is not in Madden 16.

Then let's work on getting something different into Madden 17.

The point of the argument is two fold:

1. 40 times do not equate to speed and this is something that must be stopped and perception be broken.

2. Until we do this, we can't know for sure what the true distribution of the data is.

BUT...

I have a few hypotheses that may one day answer your questions:

1. That once a true distribution is found, we will find that players in Madden accelerate too quickly and are way faster (on the average) than they are supposed to be.

2. There are far fewer players that are above 90 in SPD in real life as opposed to Madden. So yes, Madden makes too many players too fast.

3. Using a proper methodology that is carried out for all players NO MATTER THEIR POSITION will correct the issues with #1 and #2.


I was told by Rex, et al. that they will continue with how Donny did things for Madden 16's cycle. What they are trying to do is overhaul how they rate players for Madden 17, hence why I likely won't hear anything back until late August. We will see what they decide to do. If September comes around and you haven't heard anything from me, then they obviously decided to go in another direction, that will still, likely, not be correct.

This is EAs opportunity to get things right and I have all of the data and the proper methodology, scientifically derived, to back it up. Until this stuff is in the game, as it should be, I won't stop protesting its absence.

[briz1046]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Would I be correct in assuming that any major changes or involvement by Dan would be for M17 and onwards ?
It would seem rather late in the present cycle to introduce any new ratings scale with no opportunity to work with the game play team or make the necessary adjustments to the draft class generator or progression/ regression mechanics and that at least for M16 the likely way forward would be to continue as before with whoever is at the helm at present
If so I would suggest to whoever is in charge to use a more minimalist approach concentrating on up to date transactions signings etc corrections to obvious errors / miss ratings and management of trending players rather than previous years whereby players were likely to rise and/or fall in consecutive weeks
I sincerely hope those at EA responsible for any decisions do indeed take advantage of dabs hard work and resources for the future and make the subsequent changes necessary in CFM for his ratings to carry over into that tho I sense it may require a change in the way that OVR ratings are calculated in relation to individuals attributes for them to embrace such a notion

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

Would I be correct in assuming that any major changes or involvement by Dan would be for M17 and onwards ?
It would seem rather late in the present cycle to introduce any new ratings scale with no opportunity to work with the game play team or make the necessary adjustments to the draft class generator or progression/ regression mechanics and that at least for M16 the likely way forward would be to continue as before with whoever is at the helm at present
If so I would suggest to whoever is in charge to use a more minimalist approach concentrating on up to date transactions signings etc corrections to obvious errors / miss ratings and management of trending players rather than previous years whereby players were likely to rise and/or fall in consecutive weeks
I sincerely hope those at EA responsible for any decisions do indeed take advantage of dabs hard work and resources for the future and make the subsequent changes necessary in CFM for his ratings to carry over into that tho I sense it may require a change in the way that OVR ratings are calculated in relation to individuals attributes for them to embrace such a notion

You are correct. Everything that they would want from me would be for M17. Expect the status quo for M16.

[Yukon46]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

The point of the argument is two fold:

40 times do not equate to speed

So yes, Madden makes too many players too fast.

I was told by Rex, et al. that they will continue with how Donny did things for Madden 16's cycle.

But for Madden 16, I can bet they do use 40 times to create draftees Speed rating in CFM's.

So if they are gonna use this same system, I am suggesting they edit their base Roster to match this system.

And then use that Base roster as the formula for creating future CFM rookies/draft classes.

I know I could re-rate their base roster in less than an 8 hour shift...

And it's not some major departure from how they already use their ratings..but what it does do, is it Makes Sense.

But...I guess I will just be alone on this....And let everyone zip around the virtual playing field with thousands of over speed rated players for Madden 16.

[charter04]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

But for Madden 16, I can bet they do use 40 times to create draftees Speed rating in CFM's.

So if they are gonna use this same system, I am suggesting they edit their base Roster to match this system.

And then use that Base roster as the formula for creating future CFM rookies/draft classes.

I know I could re-rate their base roster in less than an 8 hour shift...

And it's not some major departure from how they already use their ratings..but what it does do, is it Makes Sense.

But...I guess I will just be alone on this....And let everyone zip around the virtual playing field with thousands of over speed rated players for Madden 16.

I think you and Dan both agree that too many players are too fast. Your way of fixing it is just using the current system. His is looking to fix the entire system.

Do you have a roster for Madden 15? I always enjoyed the ones you did for NCAA.

[Yukon46]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I think you and Dan both agree that too many players are too fast. Your way of fixing it is just using the current system. His is looking to fix the entire system.

Do you have a roster for Madden 15? I always enjoyed the ones you did for NCAA.

No roster for 15, would not waste my time.... without CFM editing, you can not fix the draftees, so what is the point.

Have not played multiple CFM seasons in Madden since 12.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

My hope is that the developers actually play the game WITH Dan's rosters to get an idea of what the possibilities really are with this level of accuracy...

I've run more than a few of the kind of interview Dan described over the past couple / few decades and I personally, wouldn't go into that call without at least having a SOMEONE at the company run a comprehensive test and submit a detailed report to me...

Y'know, since the difference is undeniable and all...

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

My hope is that the developers actually play the game WITH Dan's rosters to get an idea of what the possibilities really are with this level of accuracy...

I've run more than a few of the kind of interview Dan described over the past couple / few decades and I personally, wouldn't go into that call without at least having a SOMEONE at the company run a comprehensive test and submit a detailed report to me...

Y'know, since the difference is undeniable and all...

It would have been nice if they did try it ahead of time. They didn't even know where to get them as they thought that I made the rosters myself and made them available for download from the site. Just search on OS for 'FBG' and 'download' and you will see how many times I have addressed this. Just saying.

Instead, they asked my impressions on how it affected gameplay. I told them to search the forums and read it themselves from other people as it takes my bias out of it.

Hoping they do just that.

[briz1046]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

It would appear a ready 'compromise that would keep both sim gamers and those who crave inflated OVR ratings happy would be to introduce dans rating system for individual attributes and apply a multiplier in order to 'artificially ' inflate the calculated OVR for marketing purposes
Looking at dans site , where JJ Watt is rated at 99 OVR , such a multiplier would have to increase as variance from 100 increases
So that if Dan rates a player at 99 the multiplier would approximate to 1 , at 90 it would be roughly 1.05 and so on ....
Pretty sure that any programmer would have no problem devising such a system

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

My hope is that the developers actually play the game WITH Dan's rosters to get an idea of what the possibilities really are with this level of accuracy...

I've run more than a few of the kind of interview Dan described over the past couple / few decades and I personally, wouldn't go into that call without at least having a SOMEONE at the company run a comprehensive test and submit a detailed report to me...

Y'know, since the difference is undeniable and all...

I agree! Rex stated they had tried things in the past but he didn't feel comfortable with it as it broke other things or whatever. But dans ratings don't break anything. They play amazing and you not only see the difference with the way the game animates but you feel the difference as well with individual players. You can feel the difference between the superstars and average joes. You just need to play differently defensively with slower speeds and play angles and contain rather than expect to chase a player down sideline to sideline with 90 rated speed linebackers.

It makes zero sense to have a meeting with a guy about his rosters and not have tried them out to see and feel the difference yourself. The fbg roster threads themselves are filled with positivity and guys who have played and tested with them and have seen the difference from dans rosters and EA's. It's a night and day difference in a unbelievable positive way. That many people who undeniably saw the difference and provided positive feedback can't all be wrong. The game just plays so much better with spread out ratings and with slower speed ratings. Heck, hire a intern to enter fbg ratings for 2 teams for them to test. Then have him just put in ratings for a few teams with just areas such as speed, strength, agility, jumping, throw accuracy from short, medium, long, footwork, etc. then test them all out. It's a undeniable difference in gameplay and animations. There is a better way that could change this game forever moving forward. I know it because I've seen it.

Hopefully, Rex and others take the time to test these for a week or so before talking with dan again so they know how bad this game needs a different system and how different the game plays with one. I don't understand the competitive balance argument. We just want realism. I don't want Vince wilfork having a 75 speed (just throwing a number out) instead of what he should have to make the game have a competitive balance. If a rb gets passed him no way he catches him from behind. I just want realism with real data to make players play like themselves from speed, strength, jumping ability, etc. being good or not on the stix and playing someone who is just as good as you and playing the game of chess on the field making the right play calls is the type of competitive balance I want to see.

I know this has been mentioned 1000x on here in the past, but just allowing us the ability to edit draft classes and rosters within cfm (give ability to edit on or off) would solve a lot of issues. Let us play the game we want. I'm sorry but I just can't play with EA's overrated rosters and the speed ratings alone being so high ruin the game for me. With dan's lower speed ratings it eliminates alot of skating and what not! EA's rosters feel like a arcade game to me while dan's feel and look like a real nfl simulation. It's the best way I can describe it and the difference for those that don't know or have not used them. It was frustrating last year to only be able to play 1 year of cfm with dan's roster as the draft ruined the league in year 2 as it had EA's inflated speed ratings that we couldn't fix. Once you play with the fbg rosters there is no going back to EA's. It's like playing madden 16 and then trying to go back and play madden 11.

FIFA spread out their ratings, nba2k did as well. Why can't madden innovate and why are they the last to figure this out. Think about nba2k for a second and how they have players with hot and cold zones. If you miss a release with Stephen curry you will miss. If you take a 15 foot jumper with Shaq it's a brick. My point is it's realistic, it's sim. Players don't complain about it. But in madden Tim tebow or geno smith play like tom Brady or Payton manning. They have the same accuracy on a short ball as they do a deep ball. No signature releases, no touch on passes, no real world data to back up a players ratings. Why can nba2k get away with this and players are fine with it but madden and ea is worried about Timmy or tourney players being unhappy or competitive balance? If that's what competitive balance means then I hate it! And if it's route they are taking then I highly suggest they give 2 options for gamers as far as rosters and gameplay go.

Rosters
Ea rosters for "competitive balance" for online tourney players

Fbg rosters for players who want a sim game

Gameplay
Normal gameplay they have now for online and tourney players

Sim mode for us sim guys with accurate penalties, qb's with real throwing percentages where not every pass is on target, occasional bad snaps, etc

Again this is a route NBA2k went to appease everyone and it works for 12 year old Timmy, us Die hards, and 55 year old dad. It's the only way to make everyone happy. The more options we have the better. It's another reason having more sliders for every aspect of gameplay and making sure they ALL work would solve so many issues with the game! It seems like they fixed the penalty sliders to work but I'm hesitant to believe the others were touched and work like they should.

Sorry for the long rant and touching on off the subject topics. A lot of it I believe go's hand in hand however...

[BigDaddyHolmes]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

This is good news.

[Gman 18]

Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

I agree! Rex stated they had tried things in the past but he didn't feel comfortable with it as it broke other things or whatever. But dans ratings don't break anything. They play amazing and you not only see the difference with the way the game animates but you feel the difference as well with individual players. You can feel the difference between the superstars and average joes. You just need to play differently defensively with slower speeds and play angles and contain rather than expect to chase a player down sideline to sideline with 90 rated speed linebackers.

It makes zero sense to have a meeting with a guy about his rosters and not have tried them out to see and feel the difference yourself. The fbg roster threads themselves are filled with positivity and guys who have played and tested with them and have seen the difference from dans rosters and EA's. It's a night and day difference in a unbelievable positive way. That many people who undeniably saw the difference and provided positive feedback can't all be wrong. The game just plays so much better with spread out ratings and with slower speed ratings. Heck, hire a intern to enter fbg ratings for 2 teams for them to test. Then have him just put in ratings for a few teams with just areas such as speed, strength, agility, jumping, throw accuracy from short, medium, long, footwork, etc. then test them all out. It's a undeniable difference in gameplay and animations. There is a better way that could change this game forever moving forward. I know it because I've seen it.

Hopefully, Rex and others take the time to test these for a week or so before talking with dan again so they know how bad this game needs a different system and how different the game plays with one. I don't understand the competitive balance argument. We just want realism. I don't want Vince wilfork having a 75 speed (just throwing a number out) instead of what he should have to make the game have a competitive balance. If a rb gets passed him no way he catches him from behind. I just want realism with real data to make players play like themselves from speed, strength, jumping ability, etc. being good or not on the stix and playing someone who is just as good as you and playing the game of chess on the field making the right play calls is the type of competitive balance I want to see.

I know this has been mentioned 1000x on here in the past, but just allowing us the ability to edit draft classes and rosters within cfm (give ability to edit on or off) would solve a lot of issues. Let us play the game we want. I'm sorry but I just can't play with EA's overrated rosters and the speed ratings alone being so high ruin the game for me. With dan's lower speed ratings it eliminates alot of skating and what not! EA's rosters feel like a arcade game to me while dan's feel and look like a real nfl simulation. It's the best way I can describe it and the difference for those that don't know or have not used them. It was frustrating last year to only be able to play 1 year of cfm with dan's roster as the draft ruined the league in year 2 as it had EA's inflated speed ratings that we couldn't fix. Once you play with the fbg rosters there is no going back to EA's. It's like playing madden 16 and then trying to go back and play madden 11.

FIFA spread out their ratings, nba2k did as well. Why can't madden innovate and why are they the last to figure this out. Think about nba2k for a second and how they have players with hot and cold zones. If you miss a release with Stephen curry you will miss. If you take a 15 foot jumper with Shaq it's a brick. My point is it's realistic, it's sim. Players don't complain about it. But in madden Tim tebow or geno smith play like tom Brady or Payton manning. They have the same accuracy on a short ball as they do a deep ball. No signature releases, no touch on passes, no real world data to back up a players ratings. Why can nba2k get away with this and players are fine with it but madden and ea is worried about Timmy or tourney players being unhappy or competitive balance? If that's what competitive balance means then I hate it! And if it's route they are taking then I highly suggest they give 2 options for gamers as far as rosters and gameplay go.

Rosters
Ea rosters for "competitive balance" for online tourney players

Fbg rosters for players who want a sim game

Gameplay
Normal gameplay they have now for online and tourney players

Sim mode for us sim guys with accurate penalties, qb's with real throwing percentages where not every pass is on target, occasional bad snaps, etc

Again this is a route NBA2k went to appease everyone and it works for 12 year old Timmy, us Die hards, and 55 year old dad. It's the only way to make everyone happy. The more options we have the better. It's another reason having more sliders for every aspect of gameplay and making sure they ALL work would solve so many issues with the game! It seems like they fixed the penalty sliders to work but I'm hesitant to believe the others were touched and work like they should.

Sorry for the long rant and touching on off the subject topics. A lot of it I believe go's hand in hand however...

It would be great if EA released 2 separate rosters to the public- Dan's FBG ratings roster and the " competitive balance " rated rosters. That would be the only way to please both the casuals and sim players. Too bad it has taken EA so long to even THINK about an overhaul to their ratings system, especially considering their communication with some of the sim community, including some youtubers and gamechangers. You would think they would have at least utilized some of Dan's speed/strength/agility/jump ratings considering they knew for years he has a well respected ratings system that WORKS and gives the gameplay more potential


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