Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

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  • briz1046
    MVP
    • May 2013
    • 1017

    #406
    Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

    Originally posted by DCEBB2001
    Back up the train here. I never said that PFF wasn't valuable for something. PFF would be great for assigning traits to players in the game as they would likely follow tendencies - something PFF does quite well. I just don't believe that they are as valid for deriving the ratings themselves. The scouts do provide the data, but they don't make the picks. If I had a dollar for every time a GM went against the data to make a player selection...some of these guys (especially some of the more meddlesome owners) really just pick whoever the heck they want without using any data. It's happened before and will happen again. We are talking about billionaires who treat their teams as their hobbies, not the source of their wealth.

    As for the 40s and their splits, I do follow the data from sources like speedendurance.com. They track particular sprints in the 100m dash for players throughout their careers. Keep in mind that many of these players still run 40s throughout their careers while training in the offseason. I know for a fact that under Holmgren, all players (including vets) still had to run timed 40s prior to training camps. It was part of their offseason schedule to evaluate everyone on their roster to see who was already in playing shape before camps began (they did other conditioning tests too, but that it besides the point).

    The data that I get on NFL players' 40 times shows undoubtedly that players tend to lose about .005s on a 40 for every year in the league after being drafted. That is an average that includes guys who get hurt and guys who don't. It includes all positions (yes, some are more prone to losing more speed, likely through injury). Some players stay about the same after 10 seasons, while some drop off tremendously. It all depends on each individual player. I think I posted some of these in-house times on a forum here, but I don't remember which one.

    The point is that I do have data for older players who recent timed in for their teams, and am building a model as we speak to include such data.
    Good to hear
    I'm sure your correct in many cases as to scouting data being over - ruled or ignored but nevertheless no scout or source is infallible
    As for PFF data I agree it's not designed as a source for rating individual player attributes but valid for comparing how different players should acredit themselves
    Glad to hear you update your 40 times etc where possible and have a model for speed regression at hand . As I stated I believe track athletes often peak in their late 20s but on average would not be subject to the same wear and tear as their NFL counterparts who indeed may peak in this respect as rookies
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon .... No matter how good you are , the bird is going to **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway .

    Comment

    • DeuceDouglas
      Madden Dev Team
      • Apr 2010
      • 4297

      #407
      Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

      Originally posted by DCEBB2001
      I have considered using PFF in the past and found, in my opinion, that the data they provide is less reliable than other sources. Like I said before, they would be good for tracking tendencies, but I do not believe they would be good for assigning values to the actual ratings.

      My reasoning for discrediting them is because actual scouts are trained observers. Viewing and recording is what they are paid to do. Like police testimony, their opinions hold a more weight. If I have 6 police officers tell me that they saw two planes fly into WTC 1 and 2 on 9/11/2001 and three hot dog stand operators say that they saw giant pterodactyls hit those buildings instead, I would be more apt to believe the trained observers in their version of the events.

      In rating these players, if you really want validity and accuracy, you have to go with sources you trust. I use scouting data at FBG because I have been on that side of the business before and I believe that it offers a certain level of reliability. You could just as well start your own ratings site using PFF as your source material and you may reach different conclusions (ratings) or you may reach the same ones. What matters is that as the author you trust the data you are using. So long as you use data that you believe is valid, you really can't go wrong. In this case, I am highly skeptical of the stuff PFF publishes because of things like the Brad Jones = Secret Superstar article.
      Never thought I'd see 9/11 used in an analogy when talking about ratings. Nice...

      But an interesting point that comes up is whether or not Madden ratings represent the same things that a scouting rating would represent or if the ratings in-game are more a representation of the tendencies that you talk about and from my experience with Madden it's the latter when it comes to a lot of ratings. And I think khaliib brings up a good point when it comes to the animations as well. When you look at something like pass blocking, there's nothing that really represents good technique vs. bad technique when it comes to players and how they're rated. The rating represents how often they're likely to "win" and I think that's kind of what PFF does as well. It doesn't mean that it's right or that it should be the sole piece of data when it comes to rating players but I think when you look at Madden and how it and the ratings work, it's understandable, or at least makes sense, that information like that would be used. Again, that doesn't make it right or the most accurate or valid but until they overhaul or significantly tweak how things work in terms of animations and how ratings work, it is what it is and it's not really going to matter what is used.

      Comment

      • jerwoods
        MVP
        • Jan 2009
        • 2997

        #408
        Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

        i forgot to say that with my liquid ratings

        that each player with have to have the potential to go to 99 if u use all your XP on him try to only get to ball to him each player will have to have a set rating but this way this does not break CCM mode of course maybe i could use a FBG set if i could get the ratings system changed to 2.0 - 9.9 or 1.2 to 9.9

        Comment

        • jpdavis82
          All Star
          • Sep 2005
          • 8788

          #409
          Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

          Dan,

          Any updates from EA yet?

          Comment

          • DCEBB2001
            MVP
            • Nov 2008
            • 2569

            #410
            Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

            Originally posted by jpdavis82
            Dan,

            Any updates from EA yet?
            Nope. Rex said I won't hear anything before late August. If they call me, then we get a good sense of the direction they want to go in. If not, it doesn't change a thing with what I do with my website. I will still be rating players on that site unless something happens with EA that overrules it.
            Dan B.
            Player Ratings Administrator
            www.fbgratings.com/members
            NFL Scout
            www.nfldraftscout.com/members

            Petition to EA for FBG Ratings:
            https://www.change.org/p/ea-sports-t...bers-index-php

            Comment

            • PGaither84
              MVP
              • Mar 2009
              • 4393

              #411
              Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

              I could write a whole rant about the player rating system, and those who know me over the last 6 years or so know I have had many threads and posts on this subject, but this thread is about Donny.

              Having met him at the Madden 11 Community Day, I can say my limited impression of him was that he is a cool guy who had a passion for his job, but was often hand cuffed by forces outside his control. Marketing and PR had a lot of sway in the decisions he was forced to make and they care more about image than quality, and that had a big impact on the quality and legitimacy of the ratings.

              Additionally, one of my pet peeves with Donny was how he rated line backers. What are the jobs of a line backer? Run Support, blitz or pass coverage. Line backers would be given quality play recognition, finesse/power move (pass rushing), and block shedding (run stopping) ratings along with the highest tackle ratings in the game compared to members of the secondary. Okay, that is all well and good, but they tended to have terrible zone and man coverage ratings.

              In Madden 2012 and Madden 25 (2014), I did a roster overhaul of line backer coverage ratings, and it was game changing. from memory, the highest zone coverage rating a line backer had was like 86 or so, then the second best was like 82, and third best dropped to 78, and then it began to plummet from there. With my roster overhaul, I started by increasing every LB by 10 points across the board and then made additional tweaks after that. Unfortunately, that only had an impact on offline "play now" because incoming hand crafted rookies were all still terrible in pass coverage.

              The point is that, when you couldn't just milk the middle of the field becasue of stupid AI and terrible zone/man coverage ratings by line backers, it made the game more difficult, challenging and fun (for me and my friends). Difficult and challenging are two things EA does NOT want Madden to be. That only scares away the casual crowd they want to appeal to.

              Wow, it is so easy to get off topic about Donny leaving... but that is something I am passionate about and maybe his departure might lead to someone else who is open to more positive changes to the ratings system? Donny is a good guy, but as a hard core Madden fan, I won't miss him. Sorry to sound cold like that. I do wish him the best in his future projects.
              My Madden Blog

              Comment

              • splff3000
                MVP
                • Jun 2003
                • 2867

                #412
                Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                Any word on if we are still gonna get ratings updates during the season? It just dawned on me that, with Donny gone, they might not have the resources to do them.
                PSN - Splff3000
                Twitch

                Comment

                • Hooe
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 21554

                  #413
                  Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                  Originally posted by splff3000
                  Any word on if we are still gonna get ratings updates during the season? It just dawned on me that, with Donny gone, they might not have the resources to do them.
                  EA has said they have a team of guys who have worked with Donny in the past to handle ratings adjustments for this year.

                  Comment

                  • raiderphantom
                    MVP
                    • Jul 2012
                    • 1537

                    #414
                    Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                    I thought his ratings were pretty solid the past couple years as you could see a lot of his ratings correlated with stats from various websites. The bigger problems with ratings are what there have always been: they are just too close together. Not enough distinction between good and great etc.. I didn't like the guy though simply from different interviews he's done over the years particularly with cummings. I think it's a good move for the franchise I'm losing interest in.
                    Student of the game. #Fundamentals

                    XBLGT: tjor24

                    Comment

                    • raiderphantom
                      MVP
                      • Jul 2012
                      • 1537

                      #415
                      Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                      As far as PFF goes, I think their grading is one of the best sources out there right now, even if their grading can possibly be manipulated or simply judged poorly. It's useful for RANKING players or determining overall rating even, but not necessarily for individual attributes. They will award poor technique if it's effective, but they don't reward bad play. If a corner gets beat and the WR drops the pass, the corner still gets the same negative grade he would if the Wr caught it. I don't base my opinions solely off their grading but they definitely factor in. I don't understand how you can completely dismiss the level of detail they go to.
                      Student of the game. #Fundamentals

                      XBLGT: tjor24

                      Comment

                      • msdm27
                        Pro
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 956

                        #416
                        Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                        Originally posted by raiderphantom
                        As far as PFF goes, I think their grading is one of the best sources out there right now, even if their grading can possibly be manipulated or simply judged poorly. It's useful for RANKING players or determining overall rating even, but not necessarily for individual attributes. They will award poor technique if it's effective, but they don't reward bad play. If a corner gets beat and the WR drops the pass, the corner still gets the same negative grade he would if the Wr caught it. I don't base my opinions solely off their grading but they definitely factor in. I don't understand how you can completely dismiss the level of detail they go to.
                        To this point, it's almost as if PFF is being judged because they don't make their analysis to fit madden. PFF is NOT interested in figuring out who is fastest, strongest... They care about production and general play/technique and that is mostly what nfl teams care about too.

                        Physical attributes can be obtained from hard data, but I consider PFF a top option when looking for intangibles, ie. Catching, mcv, zcv....

                        In the end, PFF is a source that goes beyond just looking at stats for rating players but instead looks at game film to see the whole picture. Not just sacks, but pressures, for example.

                        Comment

                        • 4thQtrStre5S
                          MVP
                          • Nov 2013
                          • 3051

                          #417
                          Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                          A huge issue I have had with ratings is how "pursuit" is rated..Obviously it is too high, but when a DT with 55 speed and 90 pursuit can chase down a WR with 90 speed just because, as it appears, the pursuit takes over when chasing anyone with the ball...

                          Also, if pursuit works as I mention above, then DT's are going after a QB with something like 90 speed, yes?

                          Comment

                          • KG
                            Welcome Back
                            • Sep 2005
                            • 17583

                            #418
                            Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                            Originally posted by 4thQtrStre5S
                            A huge issue I have had with ratings is how "pursuit" is rated..Obviously it is too high, but when a DT with 55 speed and 90 pursuit can chase down a WR with 90 speed just because, as it appears, the pursuit takes over when chasing anyone with the ball...

                            Also, if pursuit works as I mention above, then DT's are going after a QB with something like 90 speed, yes?
                            It's contextual depending on the play. I've seen some more athletic DT's chase down WR screens on the weak-side when the WR is forced to cut inside and/or wait to set up his blocks. Flat-line rundown though, yeah that's a no-no.
                            Twitter Instagram - kgx2thez

                            Comment

                            • 4thQtrStre5S
                              MVP
                              • Nov 2013
                              • 3051

                              #419
                              Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                              Originally posted by KG
                              It's contextual depending on the play. I've seen some more athletic DT's chase down WR screens on the weak-side when the WR is forced to cut inside and/or wait to set up his blocks. Flat-line rundown though, yeah that's a no-no.
                              Screens is one thing, but in Madden it can be any play...And it won't be a 34 DT who chases most people down...
                              Last edited by 4thQtrStre5S; 07-21-2015, 02:55 PM.

                              Comment

                              • Beelzebot44
                                Rookie
                                • Dec 2013
                                • 125

                                #420
                                Re: Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

                                Originally posted by DCEBB2001
                                I have considered using PFF in the past and found, in my opinion, that the data they provide is less reliable than other sources. Like I said before, they would be good for tracking tendencies, but I do not believe they would be good for assigning values to the actual ratings.

                                My reasoning for discrediting them is because actual scouts are trained observers. Viewing and recording is what they are paid to do. Like police testimony, their opinions hold a more weight. If I have 6 police officers tell me that they saw two planes fly into WTC 1 and 2 on 9/11/2001 and three hot dog stand operators say that they saw giant pterodactyls hit those buildings instead, I would be more apt to believe the trained observers in their version of the events.

                                In rating these players, if you really want validity and accuracy, you have to go with sources you trust. I use scouting data at FBG because I have been on that side of the business before and I believe that it offers a certain level of reliability. You could just as well start your own ratings site using PFF as your source material and you may reach different conclusions (ratings) or you may reach the same ones. What matters is that as the author you trust the data you are using. So long as you use data that you believe is valid, you really can't go wrong. In this case, I am highly skeptical of the stuff PFF publishes because of things like the Brad Jones = Secret Superstar article.
                                Where your position falls flat is the issue is not comparing the scouting ability of scouts to the scouting ability of statisticians. The real comparison is the ability of scouting to determine player value vs the ability of metrics and numbers to do so. Personally I think you need a mix of both, but to disregard a stat based system because they aren't trained scouts would make your analogy more like eating lunch from the squad car instead of the hot dog cart because the cops are trained observers.

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