Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

I would recommend the book Scorecasting: The Hidden Influences Behind How Sports Are Played and Games Are Won to anyone interested in how sports fans and coaches limit their understanding of the game by clinging to conventional knowledge.

That said, I don't find the success rates to converting 4th downs in Madden to be off. As I mentioned above, in MUT and DC, the short quarters do mean more times when going for it happen, but often, gamers overcompensate and and do this too often. These guys give you extra possessions.

What happens is many guys get pissed and screw up their defense, panicking when trying to defend 4th and long. But conservative play calling works, and by this time, you usually know what an opponent's bread and butter plays are.

And the fake punts and FGs have absolutely awful success rates, even if you fail to defend them with safe formations. At least the new PAT rule has eliminated almost 100% of fake PATs, as getting 15 yards is almost impossible, as opposed to just needing two.

what is interesting, every single time discussions like this come up in gaming forums, no one has data that supports their contention that it is easy to convert on 4th and whatever. I know that I don't feel comfortable going for it on anything more than 4th and 3. The defense just held me to 7 or less yards on three plays.

This isn't about reality, though. Sim gamers are less focused on completion, and more focused on the art of the game, so that it looks right. And by right, they mean exactly what you see on Sunday. But to do that, they need to be able to call plays as well as the guys on Sundays. Many often fail because they don't do this.

All I can tell you is that from my experience playing MUT and DC, I have found the guys going for it on 4th and long and using fake kicks to be easy to beat, unless they are doing it from positions on the field that make sense. For me, once I get to my own 40 yard line, I consider 4th and short more often.

But it also seems most of the critics of how people play online comes from people that don't actually play online. They just repeat what has been said for years, ignoring how much better the game has become, especially in limiting money plays.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Pappy wants to play a person who uses the typical every week logic a head coach on Sunday would.

That means not calling a fake punt in your own endzone in the 2nd quarter of a game you are leading 7-0.

I agree with him. That particular play on that video is plain Hall of Fame Velveeta Cheese. If the defense is "well it's a video game" and "no consequences for making such a bizzare call" then that is exactly the type of online player a lot of us try to avoid. Thank goodness for PSN friends, and simulation style leagues where that **** would never fly...nor stick LOL.

But here is where I would stand on that video. I would held the guy to 4th down, and it took luck for him to grab that first down. I'd be irritated, but also confident I could stop him again. And then I would use a safe formation and not worry about the return.

Of course, this is strategy, too. If I use safe formations, my returns are not going to be great. That can actually be worthwhile early in a game, because I might have a great returner. It depends.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

I would recommend the book Scorecasting: The Hidden Influences Behind How Sports Are Played and Games Are Won to anyone interested in how sports fans and coaches limit their understanding of the game by clinging to conventional knowledge.

That said, I don't find the success rates to converting 4th downs in Madden to be off. As I mentioned above, in MUT and DC, the short quarters do mean more times when going for it happen, but often, gamers overcompensate and and do this too often. These guys give you extra possessions.

What happens is many guys get pissed and screw up their defense, panicking when trying to defend 4th and long. But conservative play calling works, and by this time, you usually know what an opponent's bread and butter plays are.

And the fake punts and FGs have absolutely awful success rates, even if you fail to defend them with safe formations. At least the new PAT rule has eliminated almost 100% of fake PATs, as getting 15 yards is almost impossible, as opposed to just needing two.

what is interesting, every single time discussions like this come up in gaming forums, no one has data that supports their contention that it is easy to convert on 4th and whatever. I know that I don't feel comfortable going for it on anything more than 4th and 3. The defense just held me to 7 or less yards on three plays.

This isn't about reality, though. Sim gamers are less focused on completion, and more focused on the art of the game, so that it looks right. And by right, they mean exactly what you see on Sunday. But to do that, they need to be able to call plays as well as the guys on Sundays. Many often fail because they don't do this.

All I can tell you is that from my experience playing MUT and DC, I have found the guys going for it on 4th and long and using fake kicks to be easy to beat, unless they are doing it from positions on the field that make sense. For me, once I get to my own 40 yard line, I consider 4th and short more often.

But it also seems most of the critics of how people play online comes from people that don't actually play online. They just repeat what has been said for years, ignoring how much better the game has become, especially in limiting money plays.

Yep. And those guys are easier to beat. For me it's not about the win or loss part, but the art of playing simulation style football vs arcade BS like that play on that video. It's garbage for my taste of sports video gaming.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Has nothing to do with not trusting one's defense.

1 - It is impossible to create the real-life consequences of a missed fourth down in a video game because a video game user's livelihood isn't on the line with every play call. As such, by default, video game users are going to have a tendency to be more aggressive.

2 - Jay D makes some great points about the nature of Madden online games, that they are shorter in duration and so there is less time to be conservative. There are fewer total plays and therefore each individual play is more important, and every way to score points in football requires that one first possess the football.

3 - It's a fake punt. Fake punts are part of the game, and are designed to surprise the opponent. Your team wasn't prepared for it in this situation, and so the play accomplished its goal. How is that the game's fault? How is that the online community's fault? Presumably if you had continued the game, maybe you'd have called PR Safe Man next time. If this guy called five fake punts in a game, sure then we can have a conversation about "not sim", but one fake punt in isolation doesn't move the needle.

4 - As I've posted many times here and elsewhere, all the analytics types who have studied fourth downs have concluded that NFL head coaches are across-the-board too conservative on fourth down calls to an extreme degree. It's new wave football thinking, sure, but the math as calculated originally by Brian Burke (Advanced Football Analytics) says going for it on 4th and 3 anywhere on the field beyond your own 12 yard line is the strategically correct call. On this play your opponent was on his own 11 so the math says he took a strategic risk, granted, but that margin is much closer than conventional wisdom dictates.

I would say it is not strategically correct, and here's why (by the way I am a math major so I'm not speaking out of ignorance regarding math. If it were only math we were talking about...):

The math shows complex statistical averages for expected points, however, the math cannot take into account individual roster strengths and weaknesses, which matters quite a bit. I haven't seen their calculations, so I can't know for sure how much they took that into account, but if they are going by just expected points, that data is also based on league averages. Case in point: The Seahawks have an 88.9 4th down % for 2015. The Rams had a 30.8% rate. Granted, the Rams are more reckless, but the reason Seattle was so good at it was largely because of Marshawn Lynch and Russell Wilson. The Rams might have had Todd Gurly, but they didn't have a wizard under center like Wilson. But if you combined the attempts and conversions for Seattle and the Rams, you get a 54% conversion rate, which gives false expectations. *edit* Standard deviation would give a bit more insight into these numbers, but again, rosters matter more than anything else in the NFL.

Now, expected points is a lot more complex, but the bottom line is if Seattle converts a 4th and short in their own territory, they are far more likely to end that drive in a touchdown than the Rams, who even if they convert will probably have to punt or turn it over before they get into the red zone, and the reason has everything to do with roster talent.




You want to know a team that uses analytics as much or more so than any team in the league when it comes to roster decisions? The 49ers. And boy has their roster fallen to pieces as soon as the nerds took over and Harbaugh and his staff were shown the door.

[bucky60]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

But here is where I would stand on that video. I would held the guy to 4th down, and it took luck for him to grab that first down

I took luck? It took a laser like Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers pass to a receiver running at full speed. Thrown by a PUNTER. The receiver wasn't wide open that allowed for significant degree of error on the pass. The receiver was running full speed and was hit right in stride. It was like a slant pass. Perfect timing, perfect accuracy. They should have that punter starting at QB ahead of Newton.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

I took luck? It took a laser like Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers pass to a receiver running at full speed. Thrown by a PUNTER. The receiver wasn't wide open that allowed for significant degree of error on the pass. The receiver was running full speed and was hit right in stride. It was like a slant pass. Perfect timing, perfect accuracy. They should have that punter starting at QB ahead of Newton.

That play does not work often at all. That's why posing one video of one play failed to make the case the OP was trying to make.

Again, no one is posing data that supports the case they are trying to make.

[Hooe]

Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Pappy wants to play a person who uses the typical every week logic a head coach on Sunday would.



That means not calling a fake punt in your own endzone in the 2nd quarter of a game you are leading 7-0.



I agree with him. That particular play on that video is plain Hall of Fame Velveeta Cheese. If the defense is "well it's a video game" and "no consequences for making such a bizzare call" then that is exactly the type of online player a lot of us try to avoid. Thank goodness for PSN friends, and simulation style leagues where that **** would never fly...nor stick LOL.

The justification for a fake punt is "it's a fake punt and the best time to run a fake is when no one expects it." The end.

That's the only time a fake works, when the defense isn't prepared to stop it. OP could have stopped the fake by playing PR Safe Man or PR Safe Zone. Defenses aren't helpless against fakes, they aren't cheese, you just have to call the right play. OP didn't. That's user error. Hiding behind the "not sim" shield neither identifies nor fixes the tactical problem.

The place where Madden falls short, and what is the premise of this thread which I already agreed with, is user tendency reporting. I should have some idea as to where on the field and when in the game my opponent likes to try a fake, so I can prepare myself accordingly. That unfortunately doesn't exist, so I have to learn about my opponents by other means.

That said, if using fake punts at all is cheese, I guess I identify as a cheeser. To me, fake punts are absolutely sim and absolutely fine. Doesn't mean I run them all the time - not at all - but I can and will run one. You want to stop them? Call a PR Safe. It's there for a reason.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Pappy wants to play a person who uses the typical every week logic a head coach on Sunday would.

That means not calling a fake punt in your own endzone in the 2nd quarter of a game you are leading 7-0.

I agree with him. That particular play on that video is plain Hall of Fame Velveeta Cheese. If the defense is "well it's a video game" and "no consequences for making such a bizzare call" then that is exactly the type of online player a lot of us try to avoid. Thank goodness for PSN friends, and simulation style leagues where that **** would never fly...nor stick LOL.

I'm far from a defender of Madden playstyles, all I'm saying is that fake punt, specifically in that video, doesn't equate to cheese or exploiting the game. Like JayD just pointed out, in reference to fake punts in Madden, after it's attempted there, it likely won't be successful anymore that game due to the other player now being alert to it. Of all the cheese in Madden, fake punt plays aren't in my experience because all that is required to stop it is "safe" return plays. It's not something where a player has to adjust their entire game plan or do some unrealistic steps to contain it, they simply have their return team ready for it with safe return plays.

Any player should be able to decide what kind of tendencies they want to avoid but from a cheese, exploitative or unrealistic POV, that punt fake didn't apply, imo. If you want to get technical, in this instance, comparing a H2H Ranked game to a regular season real NFL game is a huge stretch, I'd say it's more like real NFL scrimmage, third preseason game or a late season game where neither team can make the playoffs, what's mainly at stake is pride. So in those type real scenarios I could see a similar fake punt being tried but all that aside, again if that's me playing that game, what happened there wouldn't bother me nor would I feel it was a cheap shot.

Edit: Also wanted add for the record, I wouldn't ever do a punt fake in that situation, in fact, I can't recall ever doing a punt fake in an online H2H match period but I still think it's a fair play call within the context of that video.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Some of you are getting hung up on the one play. I just used that to exemplify the dumb decisions you repeatedly see when playing randoms online. The ultimate point is that I don't want to play fools who do this type of thing and think a VIP system for scouting would help make this a reality a lot more often than it is now. For example, in APF 2K8 you could see a person's reputation in addition to other stats. It made finding good people to play against much easier than it is these days.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Some of you are getting hung up on the one play. I just used that to exemplify the dumb decisions you repeatedly see when playing randoms online. The ultimate point is that I don't want to play fools who do this type of thing and think a VIP system for scouting would help make this a reality a lot more often than it is now. For example, in APF 2K8 you could see a person's reputation in addition to other stats. It made finding good people to play against much easier than it is these days.

Unless I missed it, I don't see where anyone disagreed with your VIP premise, there was a separate discussion and disagreement about the punt fake. I think you might have gotten hung up on the discussion of the punt fake and overlooked the unanimous support of your ultimate point.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Unless I missed it, I don't see where anyone disagreed with your VIP premise, there was a separate discussion and disagreement about the punt fake. I think you might have gotten hung up on the discussion of the punt fake and overlooked the unanimous support of your ultimate point.

Maybe so. It's just baffling as hell to me that people are even justifying the fake punt thing as being an okay strategy. Especially on a site such as this where so many claim to be sim gamers. I just don't want the point of this thread to be lost.

That being said, I guess some of the discussion in this thread supports why a VIP system would be valuable. There seems to be a difference of opinion on what is cool or not. You wouldn't necessarily know if someone would pull a fake punt in that situation like in the clip I posted, but you could certainly improve your odds of avoiding it.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Maybe so. It's just baffling as hell to me that people are even justifying the fake punt thing as being an okay strategy. Especially on a site such as this where so many claim to be sim gamers. I just don't want the point of this thread to be lost.

That being said, I guess some of the discussion in this thread supports why a VIP system would be valuable. There seems to be a difference of opinion on what is cool or not. You wouldn't necessarily know if someone would pull a fake punt in that situation like in the clip I posted, but you could certainly improve your odds of avoiding it.

I respect that you don't want the VIP point lost and imo it's possible to discuss the realistic merits of the punt fake, as well as support that point.

To the bold, whether someone has the opinion that fake punt is an okay strategy or not, can be separate from the type of gamer they are. I'm a realism based gamer, can't see myself ever doing that tactic yet explained why I don't have an issue with the fake punt in that video. A straight up cheese gamer could generally agree with me about that play but it wouldn't change the fact that we approach playing the video game as a whole in complete different manners.

It's really not that deep, sim gamers, ie gamers that strive to play the game realistic, can have logical differences of opinion on what strategies that entails. I want to emphasize "logical" because that certainly doesn't include somethings flagrantly unrealistic like going for it on 4th down 75%, numerous punt fakes, etc, under the guise of "they could do it in the real NFL if they wanted to".

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

The justification for a fake punt is "it's a fake punt and the best time to run a fake is when no one expects it." The end.

That's the only time a fake works, when the defense isn't prepared to stop it. OP could have stopped the fake by playing PR Safe Man or PR Safe Zone. Defenses aren't helpless against fakes, they aren't cheese, you just have to call the right play. OP didn't. That's user error. Hiding behind the "not sim" shield neither identifies nor fixes the tactical problem.

The place where Madden falls short, and what is the premise of this thread which I already agreed with, is user tendency reporting. I should have some idea as to where on the field and when in the game my opponent likes to try a fake, so I can prepare myself accordingly. That unfortunately doesn't exist, so I have to learn about my opponents by other means.

That said, if using fake punts at all is cheese, I guess I identify as a cheeser. To me, fake punts are absolutely sim and absolutely fine. Doesn't mean I run them all the time - not at all - but I can and will run one. You want to stop them? Call a PR Safe. It's there for a reason.

Who on God's green earth has ever seen a fake punt in the opponents own end zone up 7-0 in the second quarter. I never said using fake punts is cheese or not sim. But in that particular situation when you absolutely know anyone who has watched football for like "forever" has never seen that called like that.....jesus man.



Seriously don't pull the " hiding behind the sim shield" comment on me. Your seriously insulting my intelligence.


Your taking it way of context. Your putting words in my mouth. I am talking to that exact situation. It was BS cheesy call.....highly arcadish in nature and frowned upon by 99.99% of guys who play simulation style football.

Guy try's a fake punt near mid field once in a game (how many fake punts does a team try in a season...one at the most...two? and where, when down and distance, score, situation) to sustain an important drive or try to catch me napping....no problem it happens...it's rare but it happens. But expecting me to call a defense to defend that when a guy is punting out of his own end zone up 7-0 in the 2nd quarter? And knowing if I don't have a safe PR or fake punt defense called I can't defend it and the success rate of fake punts on Madden far exceeds real life as punters can throw like Brett Favre?

CHEESE. All day.

Sim Shield? Dude.....really? Guess you never watch the NFL.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

@Armor and Sword, technically taking another team's playbook to use to play with other teams is unrealistic but it's logically acceptable in Madden. In that same vein, I never use option or pistol plays in Madden but if a player is good at that type offense and executes it realistically with a team that doesn't in the real NFL, again, that's logically acceptable in Madden. To bring this back to the punt fake, considering it's a H2H Ranked and it's a trick play that only potentially works if your opponent is not in "safe" PR, ie alert for the fake punt, it's logically acceptable.

FWIW, back when I routinely played H2H Ranked, if an opponent came out to punt or kick fg/xp, I usually picked "safe" formations anyway, due to my POV of that mode. H2H Ranked isn't some sim gamer mode, I'm not suggesting it should be the Wild West of cheese like it is, I'll I'm saying is a wider range of tactics is logically acceptable in that mode, imo.

My question to those that find that cheesy, in what situation in a H2H Ranked match would a fake punt be acceptable? In full disclosure that's a trick question because if you try to outline that, you'll basically be suggesting doing a fake punt when it's expected or should be, lol. So to recap, in a H2H, up by 7 points early in the 2nd quarter, pinned deep in your own endzone on 4th and 3, is a logical time to try a punt fake, which will likely only have the potential to surprise your opponent once.

[Hooe]

Re: Madden Needs to Implement the 2K VIP System

Who on God's green earth has ever seen a fake punt in the opponents own end zone up 7-0 in the second quarter.

But expecting me to call a defense to defend that when a guy is punting out of his own end zone up 7-0 in the 2nd quarter?

Again, this is exactly why the fake works in that situation, and this play is video evidence of my assertion. You clearly aren't expecting it, OP clearly wasn't expecting it, and that's why it works. That's my point!

If I, the Madden play caller, am only allowed to call fakes when you deem it appropriate and when you might expect it, why would I ever run it? If I can only run a fake punt when I "need" to keep a drive alive and you will see it coming then as opposed to whenever I want, why would I not just go for it every time instead? Why should I wait for a later-game situation where if I don't convert I will lose, as opposed to doing my best to maximize my chances of winning now by converting? This is simple game theory.

Faking in this case is an extremely high-leverage decision, and the cost of failure extremely high, absolutely. However, having possession of the ball in football is more important than playing field position, and maintaining possession maximizes the offense's chances of winning. "Madden ball" players and mathematicians both realize this (albeit arriving at this conclusion from two very different premises), NFL head coaches don't.

Seriously don't pull the " hiding behind the sim shield" comment on me. Your seriously insulting my intelligence.

I'm sorry that you feel that way because that was never my intention. My comment was directed at the nebulous and poorly-defined "sim" attitude towards sports games in the general case, where something as much as a player outperforming his ratings in one game is accused of so-called "cheese". Speaking of...

highly arcadish in nature and frowned upon by 99.99% of guys who play simulation style football.

Define "simulation style football".

I consider myself a "sim" player. I absolutely don't play the same style of football as the guys in the Madden challenge. I'm not lining up Rob Gronkowski at fullback and building an offense around a FB Dive, I'm not lining up Megatron at tight end. Rather I'm keeping my guys at their real positions and I'm doing zone blocking runs and five-step-drop passing. I've played in plenty of online leagues started here on OS with like-minded Madden enthusiasts.

However, we clearly don't agree one what "sim" means with respect to fake punts and 4th down in general. Your point of view is very clearly framed by what you see on television, whereas I've studied the work of people brighter than I am and with more access than I have - Brian Burke, Bill Barnwell, Neil Payne, Scott Kaczmar, among others - who have concluded repeatedly that NFL coaches' game-day decisions in these situations are consistently and profoundly wrong.

Neither of us is incorrect in our personal approach, and that's my problem with the entire "sim" culture; no one can agree on what it actually is.

And knowing if I don't have a safe PR or fake punt defense called I can't defend it and the success rate of fake punts on Madden far exceeds real life as punters can throw like Brett Favre?

1 - Exaggeration, Madden punters absolutely don't throw like Brett Favre.

2 - Punters are professional athletes who can throw a football to wide-open receivers. I could probably make the throw in this particular play with how wide-freaking-open the receiver was and I'm a computer nerd. Do we expect punters to never be able to hit throws?

3 - if you have a problem with kickers and punters converting special teams fakes now when they aren't properly defended, there is zero chance you are going to be happy with Madden NFL 17, where all the existing fakes have been rebuilt and new fakes have entered the fray.

Guess you never watch the NFL.

On the contrary, I watch the NFL and yell at all the stupid fourth down punt and field goal calls coaches are making, and @NYT4thDownBot consistently has my back.